A Stannis thread!

[chiffchaff]

Sure Shireen would still be a Baratheon, but the line of succession falls to sons not daughters, so it wouldn't be so wrong to say that the Baratheon line would die. If Shireen were to marry she would take her husbands house.

[Alexia]

Sure Shireen would still be a Baratheon, but the line of succession falls to sons not daughters, so it wouldn't be so wrong to say that the Baratheon line would die. If Shireen were to marry she would take her husbands house.

Not necessarily. Her children could still be Baratheons; there was even a discussion not that long ago on another thread about the prospect of Tommen inheriting Casterly Rock and how he would probably take the name Lannister if he did so to secure his hold over it.

Since she is the Baratheon heiress at this point, if she survives to adulthood (and I wouldn't lay high odds on that now; isn't she in Lannister hands now?) she would retain her own name rather than changing and her children would take her name.

[Dothwacky]

The line of succession follows sons *then* daughters.

That is why Cersei considers herself Lady of the Rock - all her brothers are dead, and none of them have sons.

Not sure if Shireen is in Lannister hands now, but she'd keep her name, or whoever she was married off to would probably agree to a name change, or their firstborn son taking the Baratheon name (depending on their rank, etc etc).

Also hate to be a party pooper but to all formal intents and purposes, Tommen and Myrcella are still Baratheons so the name won't die out until they do too. (which yes, I expect, just being... boring?)

[Alexia]

Also hate to be a party pooper but to all formal intents and purposes, Tommen and Myrcella are still Baratheons so the name won't die out until they do too. (which yes, I expect, just being... boring?)

Everyone thinks they're bastards borne of incest so I've already written them both off. ;)

If Shireen is in Lannister hands by now, I'd expect them to immediately find a Lannister husband for her with her. If Joff had married Margaery and all had gone well, I would have expected her to be raffled off to Tommen. The situation is so chaotic by now that who knows what will happen to her.

They might even threaten her life if Stannis doesn't agree to yield. :dunno:

[Octavian West]

Let's say Shireen's lives and ends up marrying a son from another noble house and they have children. Are you saying those children will carry the surname Baratheon? If so, that does not ring true to me, I don't think any man from a noble house will let his son carry the surname of his mothers house. What for? The Baratheons took Storm's End from the original Storm Kings and whereas Orys Baratheon took their words and sigil when he married Argilac the Arrogant's daughter their kids kept the surname Baratheon. The Baratheon line will not die out in the sense that future generations will be descended from them through the female line, but unless they legitimize one of Robert's male bastards or Stannis's has a trueborn soon with his lady wife real quick, the Baratheon name and male line will cease to exist.

[Dothwacky]

Well, we know what Stannis's camp thinks, and of course its a useful thing to grab onto if you're an anti-Lannister lordling, to make it part of your warcry.

However, even though the Lannisters (Kevan) know its true, I doubt say, Daven does, or that Mace Tyrell is going to let a little thing like incest stop them from controlling the boy on the throne. His claim derives from Baratheon, until the Faith can rip it out of Cersei (and say one thing for her, she loves her children more than anything else) they're solid on being Baratheons.

As for Shireen, Selyse Florent is fairly fanatical, and I'm curious as to where they'd have gone. Stannis is a traitor now, so they'd probably threaten him with her, yes, but then... On that tactic, I'd see her dead, because Stannis doesn't strike me as the sort of man to bend for that. Sadly.

[Dothwacky]

Re: the surname.

Example: Sansa and Tyrion. Having a Stark in Winterfell. The child would probably have remained a Stark, since the Northmen wanted a Stark.

Hmm, who else. Arianna, heiress of Dorne, whoever she marries, her children will be Martells. They are the ruling family.

That is why I put in (Depending on the rank of the man she marries) as quite frankly, a name change isn't that huge a thing, is an acceptable means of elevation for many - see: bastards, cousins such as Harrold Hardying becoming Arryns for sake of names - and if this husband is getting... Storm's End, potential of having his children on the throne, and his name was Bob Smith, I see Bob going Baratheon pretty quick.

These things are done, as standard - another example I've just thought of is Lady Hornwood, someone offering their son to her and how he would take the Hornwood name, granted he was her nephew, but his last name was not Hornwood.

In things like this, you have to weigh what is gained against what is lost.

[Alexia]

Except Bob himself, according to Ran in another thread, would remain Bob Smith. Its his kids who would get Shireen's name.

Edit: Here's the link. http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/40049-questions/page__view__findpost__p__1982250

[Dothwacky]

Yes, sorry, I got off track. I will consider myself duly zinged :(

:fencing:

Name doesn't die out!

[Octavian West]

Okay, but must of that is conjecture. What proof do we have that these children will take their mother's maiden name? Besides Dorne, which does not count by the way because that is their law and they are their own kingdom.

[Namorath]

im basically repeated what a said in a thread a few days about stannis taking the black (read it if you want the full thing)

but basically i dont think stannis will be king, he will either become lord commander or more likely lord of storms end (what he really wanted, not to be the king) and hand of the king

once the parentage of jon is revealed (r+l=J)i hope jon stepped down to become king or dany will come over and be queen, either way stannis would withdraw his claim and support them. i base that stannis is hard and righteous and after the blackwater was holding others to a higher standard to their oaths then he himself did during roberts rebellion and if the Targs come back its the perfect opportunity for him to make it up for betraying his previous oaths to the targ

[Ser_not_appearing_yet]

Why would Stannis ever bend the knee to Danaerys? Or Jon for that matter?

He has no allegiance to the Targs. He fought against them, and there has been no suggestion that he will cast aside his desire to be king. Stannis will break before he bends.

[Alexia]

Okay, but must of that is conjecture. What proof do we have that these children will take their mother's maiden name? Besides Dorne, which does not count by the way because that is their law and they are their own kingdom.

I found this in the Citadel.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Concordance/Entry/Laws/

If a house's succession is uncertain, a related kinsman might well be seen as the best choice to be heir. He would then take the House's name as his own, despite his father being of another house (II: 190)

He has no allegiance to the Targs. He fought against them, and there has been no suggestion that he will cast aside his desire to be king. Stannis will break before he bends.

:agree:

[The SmilingKnight]

Yeah... exactly what does he know about Daenerys right now? Does he know at all?

And what would really happen when Daenerys would meet?

He firmly believes crown is his by right after Robert, thats most of his motivation, of his unyielding belief.

He cannot maintain that belief in front of Deanerys, right?

If he stays what he is he must bend the knee according to his own rules.

He can only flip out completely and accuse her of being an impostor or some such but i dont see it really happening.

Nah, if i ever saw anyone heading for ruin in Songs thats Stannis alright.

That fake sword of his is like a beacon signaling catastrophe since he got it.

He has no allegiance to the Targs.

Does he really think that way himself?

Was he completely convinced rebellion was just at the time or he was forced into it to protect his brother and kin?

And merely believes there are no more Targs anyway.

[Namorath]

but stannis always does what he right

and if a better claim can be produced like the targs it would be an opportunity to adhere to his own rigid sense of duty that he himself broke

its not like he cant change his mind, davos influenced him to change is mind and focus on the wall instead of the kingdom i just think he will do the right thing again for the greater good and the join the targs against the others

in the scene when davos challenges him about how he remained loyal to the targsi felt stannis was really upset about the truth of davos' statement cause his action during roberts rebellion went against stannis' perception of himself and he would relish a chance to make things right and stannis always does what is right

[Ser_not_appearing_yet]

Yeah... exactly what does he know about Daenerys right now? Does he know at all?

And what would really happen when Daenerys would meet?

He firmly believes crown is his by right after Robert, thats most of his motivation, of his unyielding belief.

He cannot maintain that belief in front of Deanerys, right?

If he stays what he is he must bend the knee according to his own rules.

He can only flip out completely and accuse her of being an impostor or some such but i dont see it really happening.

Nah, if i ever saw anyone heading for ruin in Songs thats Stannis alright.

That fake sword of his is like a beacon signaling catastrophe since he got it.

Does he really think that way himself?

Was he completely convinced rebellion was just at the time or he was forced into it to protect his brother and kin?

And merely believes there are no more Targs anyway.

You are reading Stannis in completely the wrong way. He doesn't change his mind. He doesn't commit u-turns. He fought the Targs alongside his brother, and now his brother has been murdered Stannis has taken up what he sees as the throne being his by right.

I doubt he'd find Daenerys all that impressive either. As far as he's concerned, her line has been deposed. By HIS family, no less.

[Alexia]

Stannis knew Dany and Viserys existed...Jon Arryn talked Robert, Stannis, and Renly out of sending assassins after them.

[The SmilingKnight]

Does he know anything about Daenerys as she is now? I dont think so.

Mel could have seen her in flames but it seems like they are both preoccupied with other events for now.

Deanerys could call him a traitor to his face and he wont be able to refute it.

If he is as rigid in justice as he thinks he is.

[Namorath]

true ... but she was far away and doesnt know how she has matured in a great leader and stannis knows the kingdom needs someone to unite the kingdom to fight the others and believes it is himself, if someone with a better claim came a showed they could unite the land against the others i think he would step aside

i seem to recall (correct me if im wrong) that stannis doesnt want to be king, and says its not a matter of wanting but of rights and duty, ( to robert, his daughter and the kingdom) so i feel if someone else could be king and he didnt have to he would step aside, he wanted storms end not the throne

is it time to start with the childish name calling of each other ?? :box:

[The SmilingKnight]

Btw... we never see Melissandre communicating with or talking about her "order" back east.

Would it be wrong to presume she is working on her own, even maybe against the wishes of others?

Quaithe seems like her superior, in powers too.

Melissandre is full of righteous belief she is doing the right thing... i smell a cat fight against other shadowbinders concerning some prophecies or visions that end with her furiously walking away to prove them all wrong in a swirl of angry red.

We could also think that Shadowbinders are ploting to sacrifice Mother of Dragons to create Azzor Ahai-a ie fulfill their prophecies and that maybe Melissandre is an advanced unit sent to seek the right candidate...

Maybe they have been affected with magic dissapearing too, maybe more then we know - which would explain "uncertanties" in their visions.

Though i really didnt get that vibe from Quaithe. If anything it felt like she really wants to protect Daenerys.

But maybe i was just seeing it wrong.

Of course... they maybe just want to protect her only so far as to get her to Azzor Ahai reborn so he could consecrate his sword.