A Stannis thread!

[Mad Monkey]

The Night's King never did that, did he?

[Namorath]

no need to hate on stannis his iron will will make him make the right choice

my interpetation is that stannis feels he has to be king and save the world is his duty and that he is the only one to do, but when dany or jon targaryen raise their banners he will flock to them ... he doesnt want to be he feels it is his duty to, if someone where to come along with a better claim stannis will follow them ... he has said that all he wants is what his by right which is storms end and if jon or dany give it to him i believe he will be happy with that and follow jon or dany

[Gurkhal]

Problem is that I'm not sure that Stannis will recognize Daenerys claim as better than his own. While this has made people jump on me before I'll anyway say it here; I think that Stannis and Daenerys have an equal claim to the throne.

[Manderly`s Personal Chef]

That's right, comrade! :commie: :commie: :commie: :commie: :commie: :commie: :commie: :commie:

But they should stick to the Yugoslav model :D

Brotherhood and Unity to the people of Westeros.

You know, Stannis does have that badass communist Lenin-ish look :P

Oh yeah. Naprej zastave slave!

[Spastic Plastic]

Stannis will never "flock" to anyone's banners. Readers think he's much nicer and more tolerant than he actually is. In the beginning of ADWD, it's obvious he looks down on Jon and even goes "Who do you think you are?". Stannis and Daenerys certainly have equal claim to the throne, but neither of them will accommodate the other.

Dany: The kingdom was founded by my family. House Targaryen have ruled for hundreds and hundreds of years. You're the Usurper's brother and your claim for the throne makes you a rebel against me.

Stannis: The kingdom belongs to my family now. Me and my brother kicked your mad old father off the Iron Throne, and I inherited it from my brother. House Targaryen ain't the royal family anymore. House Baratheon is. You're only an exile and a foreign invader.

[Mad Monkey]

Ironically, that same argument can be used to justify Tommen's ascension to the throne. Robert intended to acknowledge Joffrey as his heir. Here is the will that he dictated to Eddard Stark in his final chapter:

“This is the will and word of Robert of House Baratheon, the First of his Name, King of the Andals and all the rest -- put in the damn titles, you know how it goes. I do hereby command Eddard of House Stark, Lord of Winterfell and Hand of the King, to serve as Lord Regent and Protector of the Realm upon my ... upon my death ... to rule in my ... in my stead, until my son Joffrey does come of age ... ”

He also threw a bone to Daenerys too:

“The girl,” the king said. “Daenerys. Let her live. If you can, if it ... not too late ... talk to them . . . Varys, Littlefinger . . . don’t let them kill her.”

Anyhoo, he called Joffrey his son and said that he should inherit his throne. The fact that Stannis thinks that Joffrey is not Robert's son doesn't necessarily erase Robert's command. I think that all 3 of them could really be thought as legitimate kings without any actual dishonesty or disregard for the law involved. Renly is the only odd man out, since he didn't even seem to believe that he had the legal authority.

[lukahnli]

Stannis will never "flock" to anyone's banners. Readers think he's much nicer and more tolerant than he actually is. In the beginning of ADWD, it's obvious he looks down on Jon and even goes "Who do you think you are?". Stannis and Daenerys certainly have equal claim to the throne, but neither of them will accommodate the other.

Dany: The kingdom was founded by my family. House Targaryen have ruled for hundreds and hundreds of years. You're the Usurper's brother and your claim for the throne makes you a rebel against me.

Stannis: The kingdom belongs to my family now. Me and my brother kicked your mad old father off the Iron Throne, and I inherited it from my brother. House Targaryen ain't the royal family anymore. House Baratheon is. You're only an exile and a foreign invader.

If you will recall though, Stannis was never comfortable with joining his brother in the rebellion.

And as far as him looking down on Jon, I think Melisandre was being honest when she said Stannis was growing fond of him in spite of his gruff manner.

I find it interesting how Stannis balks at pardoning Mance talking about the law and his duty as king......but he is basically asking Jon Snow to break his oath in allowing Stannis' retainers to hold the Nightwatch's forts. I think pointing out this contradiction on Stannis' part may get him to relent on Manse Rayder.

[Spastic Plastic]

I find it interesting how Stannis balks at pardoning Mance talking about the law and his duty as king......but he is basically asking Jon Snow to break his oath in allowing Stannis' retainers to hold the Nightwatch's forts. I think pointing out this contradiction on Stannis' part may get him to relent on Manse Rayder.

Nope, he won't relent. Stannis might bend the rules when it's to his own advantage, but never otherwise. Have you read the ADWD spoiler chapter?

Mance Rayder is burned at the stake by Stannis and Melisandre.

[hurga]

I have had some thoughts on Stannis and his actions after Jon Arryns Death.

What made Stannis flee to dragonstone? We know that he is and was convinced that the king's children were not his own. Going to dragon stone, waiting so he could make the best out of his knowledge or be save from any harm the Lannisters could cause him is not in line with the views he promotes throughout the series (in fact it is the closest what Stannis ever does in terms of playing the game of thrones).

At that time, Robert was alive and his king. Stannis always points out that following your liege lord is the most important rule. He expects his followers even to accept a new god, just because he orders it. The one exception from this, as he admits, is siding with his brother in the rebellion against his true king. However, he lets us know that this decision was rather difficult for him.

Very interesting therefore to see him having no remorse in keeping informations from his brother and king when it best suits him and waiting for the right time, or cutting his family bonds rather fast when he feels slighted by Renly and his "false" claim to the throne.

Following the Stannis logic (at least the way I see it when reading the books) his most important concern should be to inform his brother and king ASAP about the information he was convinced of. Every reason for him not doing so simply shows him to be more of a hypocrite than he might be aware of.

1. Being save from the Lannisters

First and foremost, follow your king and serve him best you can. Your own savety is only secondary.

2. Robert would not believe

Again, althought their relation might not be the best and maybe the information wouldn't be enough, Stannis is convinced from what he knows and therefore has to inform the king. We know of the rather special treatment Daavos enjoys simply because he is true and honest to Stannis in nearly every way possible, although Stannis often enough disagrees with Daavos views.

My conclusion:

Stannis is no way near the behaviour he promotes. When it best suits him, he does what he wants and tries to bring it in line with his bitter way of dealing justice. However, he has always been more power driven than he wants us to believe. Even when he could not have anticipated that the whole situation in kings landing would have ended in Roberts death and therefore his claim to the thrones, Stannis was trying to do the best with the information he had. That way I am quiet convinced that Stannis will never bend his knee for any true claim to the throne of Danny (or Jon?). For Stannis, the most important thing is not the order of things, serving your king or justice, it is simply Stannis.

[Bronn is God]

For Stannis, the most important thing is not the order of things, serving your king or justice, it is simply Stannis.

Summed up very well. I remember reading AGoT and kept envisioning Stannis whenever he was mentioned by Ned as the rightful king, or by the Lannisters who seemed to fear him. I developed a thought in my head that this man Stannis was a God, coming to bring the wrath upon the Lannisters. Fast forward to Clash of Kings and I came to find that Stannis is not a God, but surely has the attitude of one.

It seems that luck was just against him. If Stannis had originally housed the force that the Lannisters had, or even had the support of the Reach, he would shitstomp every other contestant and sit the throne for good.

[Rinso]

hurga's final conclusion is an interesting way of looking at Stannis. He really is a complicated person, isn't he (unlike his rather simple brothers)?

I have always seen Stannis as someone with a lot of burden on his mind. And he was that way before Mel filled his head with her falsley-read prophecies. He is someone who loves to chew old wounds, who revels in self-pity. But he also has proven that he has a really strong will, his determination and strength of character are beyond dispute (he chose to eat his shoes instead of surrendering to Mace Tyrell's seige in the War of the Usurper while the loyalists feasted under the walls of Storm's End!). I think a lot of what he did and does boils down to self-esteem issues. He wants to prove to everyone that he's the man but he always thinks that nobody notices it. "I'll show them! I'll make them see! Hey! Why aren't you watching me!" Poor guy always lived in the shadow of his brothers - Robert and Renly were both larger-than-life, regal figures who enjoyed the admiration and love of many. Now that he's the last Baratheon standing, he tries to claw to the spotlight, and get revenge on the Lannisters, and get the Iron Throne that is his by rights, oh, and save the damn world... Too much burden. One day he'll break, and he'll break hard.

Stannis is not a bad person, and I think he has more virtues than vices, but I can't see him winning the good fight.

[Winterbane]

I've always assumed that Stannis will be offered the chance to bend the knee and serve Dany but won't be able to give up the idea of himself as king. Despite repeated claims that he doesn't want the honor, I think he will reveal in that moment that he does really selfishly want the power for himself. Sad, because he is my favorite character, but I see this as a reason for Davos (if alive) and Jon to desert him and for Martin to kill him off. :(

[The Gallows Knight]

Part of me thinks that Stannis has an end game that we won't see coming. Of the Five Kings, he is the last standing. He seems to at his core be a just man who is fighting a war within himself between what he knows to be right and what he wants to believe is right.

[Adenspear]

I do not like Stannis.

That is one of the things that I love about GRRMs writing. Stannis is the kind of guy people dislike and I think what we read about him makes most, not all, but most readers also have a dislike for Stannis.

I think the obvious conclusion to the story may be the most unlikely. The obvious ending to it all I think is Dany returns to Westeros and takes the throne. That would be the safe bet. If the author was Tolkien that would be a very safe bet. Anyone who read LOTR damn sure knew Aragorn would be on that throne in the end.

What puts Stannis in danger is he doesn't have a story of his own. He is more an influence on the stories of Davos and Jon. No one is in more peril in this series than those whose minds we don't see into. Robert, Tywin, Robb - fellows like this.

I'd put down 5 dollars that Stannis becomes king at the end. I don't think Jon will die either. I get that the series being like it is people keep expecting gruesome deaths for everyone but there are some characters with destinies that simply refuse to die.

Some POV characters that shocked me when they died really had no 'destiny'. Eddard died but his usefulness in the story was done. In a way he was kind of like a Dumbledore figure to the rest of the Starks: So long as he lived there would be no conflict in the North. He knew how to control his bannermen. With Eddard alive and in power there is no need for Catelyn to run around playing aide-de-camp. Plus all the R+L stuff. Wouldn't it be rather pointless to go through all that setup and have Jons head hacked off at the wall?!

This guy's here to stay for a good long while. Jaime, on the other hand...

Rambling post over. :uhoh:

[The Gallows Knight]

I do not like Stannis.

That is one of the things that I love about GRRMs writing. Stannis is the kind of guy people dislike and I think what we read about him makes most, not all, but most readers also have a dislike for Stannis.

I thought that your whole post was interesting and plausible. However, I found the part I quoted interesting for a slightly off topic reason. For the most part, the people who I have encountered (online and offline) who have read these books have more often then not seemed to like Stannis. It could be that his fans are just more vocal than his detractors or that I have gotten a scientifically insignificant sample (almost certainly the case) but this leads me to ask the question, who likes Stannis? I don't mean Stannis the character, I mean Stannis the man, Stannis the king? Additionally, could you consider Stannis the king and Stannis the man entirely separately?

[Lord Varys]

I like Stannis. I wanted him to win in ACoK, and I still want him to succeed, or at least to get through this whole mess in one piece.

[Mad Monkey]

I like Stannis. I do not think that he deserves to be the King of Westeros (but I don't think anyone really does, so that's not a slight against him personally) but I think that he means well and actually tries to live up to his ethical standards even when it's inconvenient. It's easy for the Lannisters to go on about how they always pay their debts when "paying their debts" usually involves "killing someone who can't fight back" but Stannis's morals actually cost him something and I find that commendable.

[Rinso]

I like Stannis the man (actually, I like all the Baratheon brothers, even though every one of them is flawed in his own way). I'm kinda sympathetic to him - the grumpy, unlovable ugly duckling who has spent most of his life in the shadow of his too charming for their own good siblings. In some ways, he's twice the man his brothers were, but in others he stoops to an almost repulsive level because he's ready to do everything to achieve his goals, including kinslaying. Like I said, he's a complicated person. He is not without sins and vices, but I think his virtues and his general well meaning prevail.

As for Stannis the king... I dunno. I don't see him winning the Iron Throne. I'm also not sure that he'd make a good king. He's far too stubborn to be a good puppet for competent powers-behind-the-throne and yet he's not shrewd enough to rule an entire continent-sized kingdom smoothly by himself. I think that the history of Westeros would have remembered worse kings, but there would be a lot that were better.

[MightilyOats]

Remember when, on the council, Stannis wanted to abolish brothels?

Yah.

I think Stannis is an intelligent man, but far too uncompromising and far too much of a prude (sexually and otherwise) for him to be a truly effective king.

The people will never love him. Or even like him. So it's kind of a waste of time to put him on the throne in the first place.

[Lord Godric]

I don't know how I feel about Stannis, I don't hate him (I do hate Melisandre though), but I don't particularly like him. His whole scheme with Melisandre seems to be changing him from a man I could have liked to one who is questionable. I do not think he has what it takes to rule Westeros though. From what we've seen of him he's a fairly pathetic ruler who is instead a puppet of Melisandre.

I think his fate will be death. Either at the hand of Dany or Jon. Essentially he has a claim to the throne and if Dany wants to take the throne she'll need to eliminate the other contenders.