A Stannis thread!

[Lord of Autumn's End]

I would like to see Stannis bend the knee to Dany and thereby keep his status as a Lord of one of the Great Houses, but I doubt he will. I think he would make an excellent councilor or possibly Hand for Dany (particularly as she's so idealistic), but I just don't see it happening. Stannis is a man of conviction. He sided with Robert during the rebellion and he didn't do it lightly, I don't see him changing his mind after the Targaryens were deposed.

As far as his qualifications go, his estimation of a King's office is merely to demand whatever he wishes because 'its in his rights'. Technically there's nothing wrong legally with that, but its a terrible strategy nonetheless. He's (arguably) fair and just, but he needs to take a few lessons in diplomacy and politics before he becomes the sort of King who could reign happily ever after. Every decent political decision Stannis has made were done at the behest of his advisors.

So if forced to choose between Stannis and Dany, I gotta go with the latter. She's got flaws too, but at least she's learning.

[Mad Monkey]

Remember when, on the council, Stannis wanted to abolish brothels?

You don't understand the Parliamentary process. That was just an opening ploy. He opens the debate with a proposal to outlaw brothels. Littlefinger or someone else counters with a proposal to mandate that every business in King's Landing double as a brothel in the evenings. After hours of yelling, tears, and frenzied sword fights, they reach a bipartisan compromise where the master of coin taxes a penny of each act of prostitution, and the Crown builds a bridge in the middle of Dorne for some damn reason.

[lukahnli]

I think if Stannis lives to see Dany arrive at Westeros especially with Dragons in tow, he will bend the knee. I remember him talking about joining his brother as if it was something he grappled with. But in the end, the fact that the king wanted to kill his brother forced his hand.

Dany seems to be pretty bright and compassionate. Yes, having her birthright taken from her is hard to look at rationally.......but considering Robert had his betrothed kidnapped, Jon Arryn had his nephew burnt alive and Eddard had his father and older brother burnt alive. I doubt she will hold it against the remanants of those houses.

So if he is still alive, I think that Stannis will bend the knee to Dany. Mel will see the dragons as a sign that Dany is the rightful rulers or something.

[Lady Winter Rose]

Dany seems to be pretty bright and compassionate. Yes, having her birthright taken from her is hard to look at rationally.......but considering Robert had his betrothed kidnapped, Jon Arryn had his nephew burnt alive and Eddard had his father and older brother burnt alive. I doubt she will hold it against the remanants of those houses.

Maybe Stannis will have this on the mind if he want to say she is incapable for Queen Regent.

Dany:My Father was King Aerys II, The...err...mad king...

Stannis:If your Father was Aerys II, then you are crazy as he.... Apple don't fall far from the tree. And besides, Queen Regent of Westeros is illegal thing. Remember Daena, Rhaena and Elaena.

[lukahnli]

Point.....

[Lady Winter Rose]

That Daenerys and Targaryen dinasty aren't so welcome in Westeros. She will be considered like her father, crazy and uncapable,, by people who harbor prejudice. Also, It could be one of reason why her claim is unstable.

On the other hand, it is clear that women cannot inheirit The Iron Throne, so it could be one of reason how Stannis could justificed his claim over hers.

[The Gallows Knight]

That Daenerys and Targaryen dinasty aren't so welcome in Westeros. She will be considered like her father, crazy and incapable,, by people who harbor prejudice. Also, It could be one of reason why her claim is unstable.

On the other hand, it is clear that women cannot inherit The Iron Throne, so it could be one of reason how Stannis could justify his claim over hers.

True, after all Stannis himself does have the blood of the dragon in him and I believe (not 100% on this) that he is the last known, living, legitimate, man with Targ blood.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

I never understood the idea that Stannis would bend the knee to Daenerys. Perhaps had she arrived at the beginning of A Clash of Kings, when he saw Melisandre and her talk of Azor Ahai reborn as a tool to be used, he may have.

But pay attention to the language he's using by the end of A Storm of Swords. The Others are "the foe that I was born to fight." (p. 1057) "Ours is a war for life itself, and should we fail the world dies with us." (p. 1078) In his own words, Stannis has staked his kingdom on the proposition that he is the central figure in a war for life itself. (p. 500) He's bought what Melisandre is selling now. Having committed everything he has to the idea that he is the promised hero, Stannis will be incapable of considering the possibility that he was wrong. That notion would destroy him psychologically, would call into question every suspect decision he ever made, and so he will never permit himself to accept it. An ordinary man couldn't take that kind of revelation--read When Prophecy Fails sometime--and Stannis is extraordinary in his stubbornness, in his unwillingness to change from a course that he has decided on. It's like the man says, he'll break before he'll bend.

In that mindset, the fact that Daenerys seems to be such an obvious fulfillment of prophecy is the most sinister thing about her. Clearly she must be a false Azor Ahai, perpetuated by the Great Other to deceive the minds of men and further undermine the cause of life itself. And just as clearly, the unwitting tool of the Others must be destroyed at all costs, or else all hope for life itself is lost. With the stakes so high, how can he do anything less?

[Lord Godric]

In that mindset, the fact that Daenerys seems to be such an obvious fulfillment of prophecy is the most sinister thing about her. Clearly she must be a false Azor Ahai, perpetuated by the Great Other to deceive the minds of men and further undermine the cause of life itself. And just as clearly, the unwitting tool of the Others must be destroyed at all costs, or else all hope for life itself is lost.

This is exactly the story Melisandre would tell Stannis and Stannis would buy it. Stannis really believes himself to be Azor Ahai now, and Dany would just be seen as another enemy to be defeated.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

This is exactly the story Melisandre would tell Stannis and Stannis would buy it. Stannis really believes himself to be Azor Ahai now, and Dany would just be seen as another enemy to be defeated.

Whenever this kind of situation comes up, Stannis has two voices whispering in his ear: Mel and Davos. Sometimes he follows Melisandre's advice, sometimes Davos. Though I think most times when they directly conflict and both are present, he's gone with what Davos says. I imagine by the time (if) this confrontation occurs, we will see Stannis considering the opinions of both of these two influences (Davos isn't "gone forever" is he?). Plus who knows how Jon Snow will be involved. Stannis may respect his opinion as well.

So... another question is, will Davos support Dany as Azor Ahai over Stannis? I think yes. 1) It would severely undermine Melisandre who Davos considers Stannis' worst enemy and 2) He doesn't believe in Azor Ahai but considering how OBVIOUS it will be that Dany is Azhor Ahai, I think he would become a believer right then. Davos being an honest man will offer his honest opinion.

Also don't forget that Melisandre was not the reason Stannis went north to fight the Others. DAVOS was. Mel wanted him to continue his campaign for the throne. So almost instead of buying "what Melisandre is selling" - he's bought was Davos was selling.

EDIT: Alternatively, Dany's dragons will just eat Melisandre. :drool: Then Stannis can decide what to do lol.

[Lord Godric]

I'd just like to see Melisandre try to shoot the dragons out of the sky like she did with Orell's eagle and they instead turn around and fry her.

Either way, I dont think Stannis will survive Daenerys' Landing. I would like to think he'd listen to Davos, but I just don't see Stannis bending the knee.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

Also don't forget that Melisandre was not the reason Stannis went north to fight the Others. DAVOS was. Mel wanted him to continue his campaign for the throne. So almost instead of buying "what Melisandre is selling" - he's bought was Davos was selling.

We never see Melisandre argue _against_ going to the North. In fact, we're told that she was never made aware of the letter from Lord Mormont requesting help. So that doesn't really tell us as much as you think.

And I think it's reasonable to assume that Davos is "gone forever," or at least not in a position to offer Stannis counsel as he once did. If Manderly killed Davos, then obviously that takes him out of the picture. If (as many people believe) Manderly reached a deal with Davos, faking his death to appease the Lannisters while working out a secret deal with Stannis, then Davos could hardly return to Stannis without blowing the ruse. Either way, Stannis is not likely to be getting much counsel from Davos in the next book.

[The Gallows Knight]

And I think it's reasonable to assume that Davos is "gone forever," or at least not in a position to offer Stannis counsel as he once did. If Manderly killed Davos, then obviously that takes him out of the picture. If (as many people believe) Manderly reached a deal with Davos, faking his death to appease the Lannisters while working out a secret deal with Stannis, then Davos could hardly return to Stannis without blowing the ruse. Either way, Stannis is not likely to be getting much counsel from Davos in the next book.

That is what I worry about for Stannis. Stannis NEEDS Davos. I guess Jon Snow will have to be the next best thing.

[cybroleach]

I never understood the idea that Stannis would bend the knee to Daenerys. Perhaps had she arrived at the beginning of A Clash of Kings, when he saw Melisandre and her talk of Azor Ahai reborn as a tool to be used, he may have.

But pay attention to the language he's using by the end of A Storm of Swords. The Others are "the foe that I was born to fight." (p. 1057) "Ours is a war for life itself, and should we fail the world dies with us." (p. 1078) In his own words, Stannis has staked his kingdom on the proposition that he is the central figure in a war for life itself. (p. 500) He's bought what Melisandre is selling now. Having committed everything he has to the idea that he is the promised hero, Stannis will be incapable of considering the possibility that he was wrong. That notion would destroy him psychologically, would call into question every suspect decision he ever made, and so he will never permit himself to accept it. An ordinary man couldn't take that kind of revelation--read When Prophecy Fails sometime--and Stannis is extraordinary in his stubbornness, in his unwillingness to change from a course that he has decided on. It's like the man says, he'll break before he'll bend.

In that mindset, the fact that Daenerys seems to be such an obvious fulfillment of prophecy is the most sinister thing about her. Clearly she must be a false Azor Ahai, perpetuated by the Great Other to deceive the minds of men and further undermine the cause of life itself. And just as clearly, the unwitting tool of the Others must be destroyed at all costs, or else all hope for life itself is lost. With the stakes so high, how can he do anything less?

You can't understand that Stannis could acept that, rather than jump to some sinister plot is afoot? I'm not saying he will but it's pretty straight forward.

[cybroleach]

Either way, Stannis is not likely to be getting much counsel from Davos in the next book.

However it is not likely that Stannis is going to need council about Dany in the next book.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

You can't understand that Stannis could acept that, rather than jump to some sinister plot is afoot? I'm not saying he will but it's pretty straight forward.

I'm not saying that Stannis is too stupid to understand the concept. I'm saying that psychologically he would find it impossible to accept.

[The Gallows Knight]

I'm not saying that Stannis is too stupid to understand the concept. I'm saying that psychologically he would find it impossible to accept.

Stannis is far more like to break than bend. But it would be amazing character development if at the end of things he does bend, if his experiences forge him into true steel from brittle iron.

[Lord Godric]

You can't understand that Stannis could acept that, rather than jump to some sinister plot is afoot? I'm not saying he will but it's pretty straight forward.

Not with Melisandre whispering in your ear that you are Azor Ahai. The only way Stannis would bend the knee is if Melisandre is dead.

[cybroleach]

Not with Melisandre whispering in your ear that you are Azor Ahai. The only way Stannis would bend the knee is if Melisandre is dead.

What if Mel backs Dany?

[Mad Monkey]

She does have a weird color scheme, which apparently is one of Dany's turn-ons.