Why does everybody hate Sansa?

[Rockroi]

And still took like 2 whole books to figure out the people who did all this to her......probably weren't her friends. You know many people that stupid?????

1. It takes her about 3 chapters to figure this out, not 2 books. Between her father needlessly exposes his whole family to ruin and the time they behead Ned, Sansa has it really figured out that NOBODY in KL is looking out for her. She does all she can to SURVIVE! She does not trust Cersei, Petyr, Tyrion, Tywin, Joff, etc. She never does one single action (after her father has been slain) that entrusts them with any of her thoughts, words or actions. She is surviving deep within the heart of enemy territory, without friends, armor, shields or swords. In effect, she is a sentient pawn. She knows they are not her friends.

She just does not know what to do about it. Unlike many other characters she does not have:

-a male character willing to die and/or kill for her (characters who have this benefit: Brienne, Cat, Ned, Robb, Arya, Dany, Jon Snow);

-a direwolf or dragon or easy access to one with a direwolf or dragon (Dany, Jon, Robb, Bran, Cat, Rickon);

-a weapon, preferably of Valarian Steel (Arya, Jon Snow, Ned);

-tons of money (Tyrion, Jaime, Cersei, Tywin).

2. She was not stupid. Its actually stupid to think Sansa's stupid. What was she supposed to do? Who was she supposed to fool? How? When was she supposed to fight back? How? I love that people think Sansa should have done more. Look, Arya is the one who kills. Arya is the "cool one" (read: the unrealistic one). Sansa is the one who is bogged down in reality; the one surrounded by 16 tons of metal, stone, steel and enemies. NOTHING has been smarter than Sansa playing this out and seeing what she can do as she survives. THAT is actually really smart.

Telling Cersei your plan in the godswood? Fucking stupid.

[shadow catlady]

And still took like 2 whole books to figure out the people who did all this to her......probably weren't her friends. You know many people that stupid?????

I know this is nitpicking, but really, one book; or half of one book, if you consider that the trouble with the Lannisters wasn't even completely well-defined for the beginning of AGoT.

IMO, considering this is her first time out of the protected world of Winterfell where she's the bestest prettiest daughter and has no worries except doing what Catelyn and Septa Mordane tell her to do (and she is excellent at this), she figures things out as quickly as anyone out of their known culture/ element/ realm of experience would.

[Alexia]

Rockroi, between your two posts in this thread I've fallen in love with you. :love:

It did not took her two books to figure out the Lannisters were her enemies. It took her less than one book and she spent the rest of her time desperately trying to escape them. She thinks about how she'll teach her children to hate Lannisters.

Sansa is not stupid. She's an abused child with PTSD doing her best to survive and escape. Arya had Yoren, Beric, Sandor, Jacquen, and other characters. Sansa had only Dontos (the castle drunk who sold her for thirty silver) and Sandor, and she didn't even have Sandor's full support that Arya had because of his loyalty to Lannisters.

[raisin]

Admittedly, my first time through the books, I really did not like Sansa. I thought she was snobby and shallow and vain. Basically, I liked and identified with Arya early enough that I saw Sansa through her eyes. I felt a little bad for her direwolf, but that was it.

Somewhere in SoS, though, I started to feel a bit more sympathy for her, and that lasted through some other rereadings of the earlier books. She's not outright stupid, but she is kind of a perfect little pawn for everyone else, well-bred and trained enough to behave as she's expected to (most of the time), and so everyone uses her. She seems to be growing away from this, which I hope means she'll be able to surprise everyone in the future. I kind of have to admire her ability to play her role now (AFfC especially), as Alayne is so different from the Sansa that left for KL. And that transition has been terribly believable, like her character in general, as I think has been mentioned.

While I still adore Arya, I also like the court intrigue side of ASoIaF, so I did like Catelyn, and I'm liking that Sansa is growing into this very well. She may not be brilliant, but she's learned enough that I don't think she'd suffer the same fates as Ned, Robb, or even Catelyn. I'm really curious where her story is going and would love to see her survive the series; she's shaping up to be kind of an awesome lady.

[Restless]

I don't like her because she is so obviously set-up to become a swan from ugly duckling.

Her transformation from stupid arrogant mini-Cat to a smarter&better  Cersei looks unbelievable and "false" to me.

Hate? Too strong word for disliking.

[AquariumDrinker]

I don't understand why anyone hates any of the characters in these books. They are all perfect with their imperfections, all very human. I understand even the lowliest characters motivations and it makes the books so wonderful for it.

If all the complaints people had against the various characters were reversed, we would be reading the Belgariad.

[Lady Blackfish]

Ned then tells Sansa she cannot marry Joff. Sansa wants to go to the King, but he scares her so she goes to Cersei and the jig is up.

Ned probably would have done better to tell her more about the situation, because the way she saw it, she was being punished. She had no context to understand Ned's decision, and while you could say that a child should obey their parent anyway, I'm sure we all have had times where we didn't, because we couldn't understand why we should. It's a very common parent-child scenario, but timed and situated so that it happened to have big consequences. That doesn't necessarily make it appropriate to say it was all Sansa's fault.

I have always maintained that Sansa is a 12 year old girl who is disliked because she acts like a 12 year old girl.

Nothing worse than a teenage girl ;)

Interestingly enough, this is why I dislike Jon Snow.

Jon takes more action than Sansa, but he's also given credit for more heroism, and some argue that GRRM intends for us to credit him with more than he's technically due. With Sansa, passivity is the natural assumption for her archetype, whereas with Jon it isn't, and some people who are bothered with Jon feel like he's given credit for a certain amount of agency merely because he is the farmboy hero.

As far as being shallow, I think she is just playing the hand she has been dealt.

Sansa tends to think that beautiful things and people are also good things and people, as an extension of her naivete I suppose, since that's how it is in the songs. But she doesn't hate or act maliciously about it. She feels embarrassed by things like Jory Cassel's lack of outward impressiveness, but I find things like that forgivable, especially in an eleven year old. Jon was rather unimpressed with the Nights Watch when he first arrived too, I believe?

[Datepalm]

Sansa tends to think that beautiful things and people are also good things and people, as an extension of her naivete I suppose, since that's how it is in the songs. But she doesn't hate or act maliciously about it. She feels embarrassed by things like Jory Cassel's lack of outward impressiveness, but I find things like that forgivable, especially in an eleven year old. Jon was rather unimpressed with the Nights Watch when he first arrived too, I believe?

But she's also internalized those values that are quite common very well. She's right, in a way, to feel embarassed about Jory - in the southern court, it really would have served better to dress up a bit. Had her life gone the way it was suposed to - the way Catelyn perhaps had planned - Sansa would be doing much better than Arya the misfit. (much of the point of the point of the story of course is that life never goes the way its supposed to.)

This isn't just a case of teenage shallowness - to a significant extent looks, courtesy, a sense of pomp and a good memory for heraldry is all a westerosi woman has going for her. (oh, and she's better manage the household, but not look like she's doing it.)

[Raegar]

Most people, I see, like this character because she's realistic. Well, It seems it's all based on personal opinion, as I like reading about things that are UNrealistic, but believable. Since she's a normal person('till LF takes her away, that is), someone I can see every day, she's completely boring to me.

Non-real characters like Meera/Jojen or Arya or Dany are much more apealing. :)

[Lady Blackfish]

Datepalm, well, I mean ... I don't remember Catelyn judging people on clothing or such, and she's a southron. I don't remember her uncle or brother or such doing it either. It is true that the north is presented as less decorative, and it's true that realistically speaking, image matters to a lot of people. But it's different to know that image matters to people and to have it matter to you yourself, and I had the feeling that Sansa fell into the latter category. She took it as a reflection of herself, perhaps, because Jory represented the north. Mind you, I don't think Sansa disliked Jory at all, merely that she was embarrassed. Man, my dad embarrassed me so many times when I was eleven ...

[AryaSnow]

I don't hate Sansa. She's really not one of my favourite PoV characters, but anyway I rather like all the PoV characters, Sansa too.

I think Sansa has been stupid since the end of AGOT. But it's understandable and forgivable: she was only 11 years old.

Beginning from ACOK, she wasn't stupid at all. She was pretty smart and she was a good person. She even became too perfect and that's a reason why I'm not finding her character particulary interesting. I would like her to become darker or doing something stupid :P

Yes, Sansa is more a "normal" girl (I think that from ACOK she's becoming too perfect for a normal girl, but there are still other things that make her "normal"). It may be realistic, but not all the realistic things are particulary interesting. There are many realistic things that are boring to read about.

Well, a "naive, sweet and normal girl" isn't a kind of character very interesting for me. I like much more a girl who kills and, yes, it's much cooler :D (But it doesn't mean that it's unrealistic. "Unusual" and "unrealistic" are two very different things).

Anyway, there aren't reasons to hate Sansa as a person ;)

[Datepalm]

Datepalm, well, I mean ... I don't remember Catelyn judging people on clothing or such, and she's a southron. I don't remember her uncle or brother or such doing it either. It is true that the north is presented as less decorative, and it's true that realistically speaking, image matters to a lot of people. But it's different to know that image matters to people and to have it matter to you yourself, and I had the feeling that Sansa fell into the latter category. She took it as a reflection of herself, perhaps, because Jory represented the north. Mind you, I don't think Sansa disliked Jory at all, merely that she was embarrassed. Man, my dad embarrassed me so many times when I was eleven ...

I think had Catelyn been there she would have made sure (finances permitting, of course) Jory was a bit more dressed up, while personally disapproving of the waste and frivolity of the court. Sansas grasp of things isn't that sophisticated, which is OK for her age. In a way I think she got the worst of both Ned and Cat - Cat's finely honed sense of propriety and decorum and Neds romanticism and aloofness from realpolitik, without being mature enough to have developed a way to balance that like Cats disdain of shallowness and Neds...er...

[Lady Blackfish]

She even became too perfect and that's a reason why I'm not finding her character particulary interesting. I would like her to become darker or doing something stupid :P

That's an interesting opinion, and not one I see often. Would you mind if I asked you what you meant by too perfect? To me it seems like she's getting smarter, but that doesn't mean she's unbelievably infallible.

Also, Sansa does begin to have more rebellious urges, though it's true that she doesn't always act on them (it isn't always smart to). But her wishing for Joffrey to die and such, I think it shows that she is capable of darker emotions (true, not to the extent of Arya, but they've had such different experiences). There are other things going on with her, her coping mechanisms, that have nothing to do with being sweet, they can be almost disturbing, like how she can make herself believe things to get by. It's a kind of psychic survival. While I personally think she's a good person still, she doesn't seem unbelievably or cloyingly so. That's just my opinion, would love to hear yours.

Sansas grasp of things isn't that sophisticated, which is OK for her age. In a way I think she got the worst of both Ned and Cat - Cat's finely honed sense of propriety and decorum and Neds romanticism and aloofness from realpolitik, without being mature enough to have developed a way to balance that like Cats disdain of shallowness and Neds...er...

:lol: I feel like there's such a divide on this board, people who think Ned is God and people who think he's useless. Ned generally treated those below his rank with courtesy and a basic respect, even though he maintained his social class. The best kind of noblesse oblige, I suppose, as good as that sort of thing can be given its implications.

I can definitely see Sansa picking up on this and that from here and there to cobble some conclusions of her own together. But I think, then, that there is something of her own individual personality to it all too, she did strike me as the most different from her family (and maybe that's why she sought out the company she did, she seems to long for people who share her interests and such). This was not a bad thing, to me, as I think it's extremely realistic, and gets blown way out of proportion as some awful horrible aspect of her personality and/or how she was raised.

And I think she got her father's moral idealism (which does have good aspects) and her mother's compassion too.

[Datepalm]

That's an interesting opinion, and not one I see often. Would you mind if I asked you what you meant by too perfect? To me it seems like she's getting smarter, but that doesn't mean she's unbelievably infallible.

Also, Sansa does begin to have more rebellious urges, though it's true that she doesn't always act on them (it isn't always smart to). But her wishing for Joffrey to die and such, I think it shows that she is capable of darker emotions (true, not to the extent of Arya, but they've had such different experiences). There are other things going on with her, her coping mechanisms, that have nothing to do with being sweet, they can be almost disturbing, like how she can make herself believe things to get by. It's a kind of psychic survival. While I personally think she's a good person still, she doesn't seem unbelievably or cloyingly so. That's just my opinion, would love to hear yours.

I think its a testament to her character and depth of loyalty to her family (and even in a more abstract way, The North) that she isnt a cross of Patty Hearst and Vidkun Quisling by now.

:lol: I feel like there's such a divide on this board, people who think Ned is God and people who think he's useless. Ned generally treated those below his rank with courtesy and a basic respect, even though he maintained his social class. The best kind of noblesse oblige, I suppose, as good as that sort of thing can be given its implications.

I like Ned, and I actually admire his actions in offering Cercei exile and refusing to roll in the mud with everyone in KL. And he's got quite a deep fundamental respect for people as people (which is why he demands that they live up to his standards. He thinks they're capable of it.) And frankly, I think he's a total woobie and its a good thing he married Catelyn or he'd have spent the last 15 years sitting next to his siblings tombs crying single tears in the dark and remembering his great bromance with Robert.*

And I think she got her father's moral idealism (which does have good aspects) and her mother's compassion too.

Yes, she does. Her sense of right and wrong reminds me more of Jon than anyone.

*incidentally, I think thats the key to Ned's character. Robert was his best friend and the one person he lowered his standards for, and he ended up a rotten king and a man who was willing to kill children.

[Raegar]

I can definitely see Sansa picking up on this and that from here and there to cobble some conclusions of her own together. But I think, then, that there is something of her own individual personality to it all too, she did strike me as the most different from her family (and maybe that's why she sought out the company she did, she seems to long for people who share her interests and such). This was not a bad thing, to me, as I think it's extremely realistic, and gets blown way out of proportion as some awful horrible aspect of her personality and/or how she was raised.

Well, mind you, I think Arya is the most different. Sansa is just an ordinary pre-teen, who addopted traits from her parents. And being ordinary and "extremely realistic" is a bad thing I find in a character. When I read a book(or watch a movie) I want to travel(in my mind) to worlds very different than our own, with people who have different ways of thinking than ours. If it's realistic and is resembling our real world - screw it! :D

[AryaSnow]

That's an interesting opinion, and not one I see often.

I know, I know :P

Would you mind if I asked you what you meant by too perfect? To me it seems like she's getting smarter, but that doesn't mean she's unbelievably infallible.

Also, Sansa does begin to have more rebellious urges, though it's true that she doesn't always act on them (it isn't always smart to). But her wishing for Joffrey to die and such, I think it shows that she is capable of darker emotions (true, not to the extent of Arya, but they've had such different experiences). There are other things going on with her, her coping mechanisms, that have nothing to do with being sweet, they can be almost disturbing, like how she can make herself believe things to get by. It's a kind of psychic survival. While I personally think she's a good person still, she doesn't seem unbelievably or cloyingly so. That's just my opinion, would love to hear yours

She's not totally perfect (if she was, she would be a bad character), but still too perfect in my opinion.

She has some little "dark" moments, but really few. There are really few moments when she wants someone dead or hates someone. In her situation I would hate much more, so I don't understand her very much. Sometimes she's also too compassionate and too brave, heroic and good (during the BW battle, for instance. She's too altruistic towards Lancel. She shouldn't necessarily hate him, but in a dangerous situation a normal person worries about his own, not about the enemies. And when she tries to calm down many adult women she's really too brave and calm for a 12 old girl. Also, when Joffrey dies she seems almost sorry for him :o ). She has small moral flaws, but I don't consider her a "morally grey character" (and I find morally grey characters much more interesting than white or black ones).

After AGOT, I see her being smart for a little girl. I don't see her to do anything stupid or wrong for 3 books.

The coping mechanism isn't sweet, but it's neither dark. There are many other moments when she's sweet, sometimes too sweet for my taste ;) And she's often too inwardly strong and calm.

I hope you understand me. Sorry for my English :lol:

[Lady Blackfish]

I think its a testament to her character and depth of loyalty to her family (and even in a more abstract way, The North) that she isnt a cross of Patty Hearst and Vidkun Quisling by now.

There is definitely the sense that she is locating her core identity, a generally heroic one. But there are some aspects of her survival that are a little more grey. To me it's like, in order to get to a place safe enough for her to be that person she wants to be, she has to pretend to be otherwise for a while.

And frankly, I think he's a total woobie and its a good thing he married Catelyn or he'd have spent the last 15 years sitting next to his siblings tombs crying single tears in the dark and remembering his great bromance with Robert.*

Hah, well yes naturally. Women are the strong ones, didn't Arys Oakheart say?

Well, mind you, I think Arya is the most different. Sansa is just an ordinary pre-teen, who addopted traits from her parents.

Arya doesn't seem the most different to me, she is very justice-oriented like her father, she even picks up the idea of carrying out justice like her father did, albeit in her childlike way. She's also very stubborn, like both her parents, willful like her mother, and while Sansa tends to get sad like Ned, Arya gets angry and vengeful like Cat. Come to think of it, she gets impatient with others and hates to share emotions with people she doesn't trust, also like her mother. Yes she happens to be a tomboy, but while that's probably the most commercially pleasing aspect of her character, it's by no means the whole thing. After all, she isn't a gimmick.

If it's realistic and is resembling our real world - screw it! :D

Well, you are welcome to that ;)

I hope you understand me. Sorry for my English :lol:

Perfectly, no apologies necessary. The thing is, I don't think her calm is simply calm, it's also detachment. I think Martin presents detachment as a coping mechanism/realistic result of trauma, but while there is sometimes a poetic melancholy gloss to it, it's also a bad thing, a loss of something human that keeps us from being monsters. But it's true that Sansa isn't a monster and is still sympathetic. To build off of what Datepalm said, in this, too, she actually reminds me of Jon.

[Dreadwolf]

... I like Ned, and I actually admire his actions in offering Cercei exile and refusing to roll in the mud with everyone in KL. And he's got quite a deep fundamental respect for people as people ...

I am in your debt for these words...

About the footnote (part after the asteriks mark): While Nothing is imposible (that idea is not something which must not be anticipated at all - BTW Jaime made in front of Catelyn a similar insinuation once eventhough I doubt he was serious about that.)

I do not like this hint (I just don't) but I know I can not prevent anybody from thinking/ claiming whatever she/he likes. Actually after coming at these boards I saw that too many posters blame Ned of many things. A hind about the straightness of his sexual orientation (while makes me a little bit sad) is not even close to many many other stuff widely spread here and there.

Whatever all that has never changed my mind a bit ...

Disclaimer: I have no problem with people having homosexual orientation. That is a matter of choice and nature after all. And has nothing to do with someone's personality. But I do not like total discarding the idea of genuine friendship and comradery between 2 men and instead - involving Bromantic relationship as explaining everything.

[AryaSnow]

Perfectly, no apologies necessary. The thing is, I don't think her calm is simply calm, it's also detachment. I think Martin presents that keeps us from being monsters. But it's true that Sansa isn't a monster and is still sympathetic. To build off of what Datepalm said, in this, too, she actually reminds me of Jon.

detachment as a coping mechanism/realistic result of trauma, but while there is sometimes a poetic melancholy gloss to it, it's also a bad thing, a loss of something human

That's probable, but I hope it will make her darker (thinking and/or doing darker things). By now, I haven't seen that. I've only seen some things that are too white.

Oh, I don't mean I want her to become a moster. I don't like monsters, they aren't interesting. I just want a grey character (and also grey characters are often sympathetic, sometimes more than white ones).

I'd like Jon to become a little darker too (but in AFFC he seems rather grey and I liked him very much :) ).

[Datepalm]

Well, mind you, I think Arya is the most different. Sansa is just an ordinary pre-teen, who addopted traits from her parents. And being ordinary and "extremely realistic" is a bad thing I find in a character.

I think theres a bit of stereotyping of teenage girls here. Some like pretty things and romantic stories, while others like to climb trees, annoy their mother and tag around with their older bothers. Both are quite ordinary and realistic. Meanewhile both Aryas experiences on the run, and Sansa's as prisoner/pawn are extraordinary.

I don't know that had their roles been reversed Sansa would have shown the same stubborness and sheer physical bravery that Arya has, but i'm not sure Arya would have the patience and self control to survive the Lannister court either. (Actually, had Sansa been the one out on the streets I could see her ending up in a brothel someplace, and she might well have developed the necessary ruthlessness and manipulativeness needed to survive.)

After AGOT, I see her being smart for a little girl. I don't see her to do anything stupid or wrong for 3 books.

The coping mechanism isn't sweet, but it's neither dark. There are many other moments when she's sweet, sometimes too sweet for my taste ;) And she's often too inwardly strong and calm.

I see what you mean. Its an intresting point. This is why I think Sansa is a lot like Jon in that way though - they'll both still act on something simply becuase they think its right or wrong, which leaves them in great mess when right and wrong are so bloody complicated.

Arya doesn't seem the most different to me, she is very justice-oriented like her father, she even picks up the idea of carrying out justice like her father did, albeit in her childlike way.

Daerons execution? That actually terrified me, because I think its showing her losing perspective completely and killing on whims and bits of nostalgia. Arya is the one whose losing the capacity to see abstract wrong and right from beyond her own perspective.

Disclaimer: I have no problem with people having homosexual orientation. That is a matter of choice and nature after all. And has nothing to do with someone's personality. But I do not like total discarding the idea of genuine friendship and comradery between 2 men and instead - involving Bromantic relationship as explaining everything.

Oh, I don't think they were actually gay ('Bromance' is just slang for a close male frienship, not a gay one, sorry about that. Though it might be interesting to try and read it that way. Men and their best friends sisters...) just that they had this relashionship that was extremely important to both of them, but which I think both have idealized totally out of proportion as memories of their youth and the innocent times before the rebellion. And unlitmately I don't think Robert was a good enough man to deserve Ned's undying loyalty and friendship, and that put Ned in a very complicated position.