Prince of Nothing Fan Art

[Old Nan]

It's the underlying puritanical persuasion still lingering in the USA massmind

Oh ho ho!

[Spastic Plastic]

Just wanted to say I agree with all of the above, particularly how rape is often percieved, here and elsewhere, as unspeakably worse that torture/murder. It's the underlying puritanical persuasion still lingering in the USA massmind

That's hardly exclusive to USA, though. Almost every modern culture views rape as a special kind of evil.

[Curethan]

Why is it disturbing? There are plenty of reasons men prefer shaved women that have absolutely nothing to do with prepubescence. Plenty of reasons for enjoying anal stimulation as well without it having to do anything with homosexual sex.

For the hair, remember that women and men are often perceived as opposites. Yin and yang. Men possess more body hair, thus it's considered masculine. And when a woman has body hair, that likewise carries connotations of masculinity for many people, and is thus deemed undesirable for women. Also, shaving pubic hair has logical roles in sex: hair is basically a covering over the nerve endings beneath it, and by removing hair one is capable of receiving more stimulation. This is a reason many men shave their testicles: more sensitive afterward.

It's the cultural fascination and prefrabricated preferences that weird me out. Its how anal sex is talked about amongst these guys, not the act itself. There is always a strong undercurrent of chest beating and dominant behaviour. Interupt a guy who's just observed that he would like to perform said act on some female to you sometime. Ask him why he prefers anal sex and you should get an interesting response, in my experience they usually suggest I am some kind of deviant gay looking to get raped. (As in "shut up, you dumb arse fag").

As to prefering shaved women - fair enough. Some women prefer either hirsute or hairless men. It's the non-acceptance and perception of otherwise clean (but unshaven) women as dirty or disugusting that is kinda arbritary and disempowering, and that certainly isn't just perpetuated by men. Long hair on the head is a key indicator of feminine gender as facial hair is for men. Leg and armpits are neutral, without conditioning imo. Armpits especially as hair helps disperse the pheromones produced there. Doesn't really hurt anyone much - it seems merely a curious cultural more, but it can be easily used to insinuate pedophilia by association. Therefore its worth questioning, especially if you are repulsed by how people naturally appear rather than merely prefering some alternative.

[Relic]

It's the non-acceptance and perception of otherwise clean (but unshaven) women as dirty or disugusting that is kinda arbritary and disempowering,

Eh. When going down on a girl, especially spontaneously and not after a shower, i prefer as little hair as possible. And yeah, hygiene plays no small part in that preference.

[Curethan]

Eh. When going down on a girl, especially spontaneously and not after a shower, i prefer as little hair as possible. And yeah, hygiene plays no small part in that preference.

Personal preference is fine and easily justified, insisting your preference should be the norm - no. Don't confuse my point.

I'd rather spontaneuosly move sex to the shower than endure stubble of the crotch anyway.

[Spastic Plastic]

Eh. When going down on a girl, especially spontaneously and not after a shower, i prefer as little hair as possible. And yeah, hygiene plays no small part in that preference.

Fully agree. And so do many women, who don't especially enjoy blowing a guy while getting a faceful of coarse pubic hair.

About the anal sex part...pretty much every straight guy I've asked about this prefers regular vaginal sex (myself included). I suppose curiosity is a big part of it, though.

[Cantabile]

It's the cultural fascination and prefrabricated preferences that weird me out. Its how anal sex is talked about amongst these guys, not the act itself. There is always a strong undercurrent of chest beating and dominant behaviour. Interupt a guy who's just observed that he would like to perform said act on some female to you sometime. Ask him why he prefers anal sex and you should get an interesting response, in my experience they usually suggest I am some kind of deviant gay looking to get raped. (As in "shut up, you dumb arse fag").

I don't talk about anal sex with other men, and my friends aren't really in the age category for chest-thumping and all that (I'm a senior citizen), so I really can't comment on this. My understanding has always been that many couples experiment with anal sex simply out of curiosity, but few actually implement it as a regular routine. Due to the many nerve endings in that area it can be a sensitive and pleasurable spot, but too many people are uncomfortable with that part of their body, associating it so strongly with defecation and the grotesque, that they have trouble getting past the psychological aspect to enjoy it. Add to that the fact that it's not as easy as vaginal sex, nor as pleasurable for the girl, and it's no surprise that it's not as common as vaginal intercourse. Still, plenty of people enjoy it for reasons that don't involve dominating the other person.

As to prefering shaved women - fair enough. Some women prefer either hirsute or hairless men. It's the non-acceptance and perception of otherwise clean (but unshaven) women as dirty or disugusting that is kinda arbritary and disempowering, and that certainly isn't just perpetuated by men. Long hair on the head is a key indicator of feminine gender as facial hair is for men. Leg and armpits are neutral, without conditioning imo. Armpits especially as hair helps disperse the pheromones produced there. Doesn't really hurt anyone much - it seems merely a curious cultural more, but it can be easily used to insinuate pedophilia by association. Therefore its worth questioning, especially if you are repulsed by how people naturally appear rather than merely prefering some alternative.

Preferences for shaved women are indeed mostly cultural rather than existing for a logical reason, and I agree that it's sad that women feel pressured to conform to the aesthetics and shave simply out of fear of looking unattractive otherwise. But there are logical reasons for the choice as well. I mentioned before that less hair = more sensitivity, which increases pleasure for the receiver of stimulation, but as posters above mentioned: many people doing the stimulating prefer their partner to be shaved, as that way there's no pubic hair in their mouth involved. I just don't see the pedophilia aspect coming into play. I grew up in a generation where pubic hair for women was still the norm, and that was reinforced in pornography, so I myself feel that women with pubic hair are sexier because the pubic hair just makes the seem more womanly. But others, being exposed to mostly shaved women (pornography is nearly entirely dominated by shaved vaginae these days) understandably prefer shaved girls.

[Curethan]

Yeh, I'm talking about the broader social attitudes though. It's acceptable for me to shave my face or not, but a woman can expect derision and labels if her armpits and legs aren't shaved. The fact is that I'm veiwed as deviant because I don't mind chicks with unshaven armpits or understand why a work colleague needs to tell me he would like to anally penetrate some hollywood startlet.

Anal sex, genital peircing, agressive behaviour and shaven genitals seem widely prefered topics in western man-porn and male peer group interactions from my experience. Search porn on the net and this is what you find, over time it becomes accepted and perpetuated even more. Some interesting exploration of this in a book about neuroplasticity called 'the Brain That Changes Itself', if you're interested.

Conforming to percieved social norms is a part of how people form preferences. I'm suggesting that art presents the opportunity to critique such memes, whereas ritualistic social interactions, sensational material and porn just perpetuate them. Question is whether PoN is art or porn, I guess.

[Cantabile]

You "don't understand" that people might disagree with you about that?:rolleyes:

Yes, I don't understand. At all. Can you honestly say that you would rather be dismembered or brutally murdered than be sexually violated? There is no comparison. I am not trying to undermine how atrocious sex crimes are, but to be appalled by a rape analogy and not by endless graphic violence is undermining how atrocious violence and murder are. Rape is an awful, awful thing, and while I haven't personally been raped I've been friend, family, and spouse to women who have, and I don't think a single one of them would, if given the choice between having been raped or having the man slit their throat, have chosen death.

Additionally, how can one complain about a rape analogy rather than actual depictions of rape in the novel? Rape scenes are okay, but not rape metaphors or simile? And this is a GRRM board, for Christ's sake. There's plenty of rape and messed up shit in SoIF, so let's not get on a moral high horse here.

Yeh, I'm talking about the broader social attitudes though. It's acceptable for me to shave my face or not, but a woman can expect derision and labels if her armpits and legs aren't shaved. The fact is that I'm veiwed as deviant because I don't mind chicks with unshaven armpits or understand why a work colleague needs to tell me he would like to anally penetrate some hollywood startlet.

I'm with you 100%, it's judgmental and unfair of society to criticize and berate women for their choices in appearance. But this problem exists with any aesthetic choice or appearances: fashion styles (goth, prep, etc.); one's weight; height ... the list is endless. It's awful, but I don't see people being able to ignore the biases and discriminatory beliefs their acculturation implants them with anytime soon.

Conforming to percieved social norms is a part of how people form preferences. I'm suggesting that art presents the opportunity to critique such memes, whereas ritualistic social interactions, sensational material and porn just perpetuate them. Question is whether PoN is art or porn, I guess.

Art is a wonderful outlet for criticizing such things, but that requires that the author both be consciously aware of the issue, and feel the need to address it in his work, and the unfortunate reality is that most people simply aren't aware of these issues. Even the ones who are, how many will think it's a big enough issue to address in their novel?

We also have to consider that preferences for shaven genitalia simply aren't realistic in most fantasy novel settings, as there simply isn't an industry for inexpensive, safe shaving razors accessible to the public, which means shaven genitalia being a sexual norm is highly unlikely.

[jurble]

5 pages, 0 pictures. I am disappoint.

[Cantabile]

When I searched for Prince of Nothing artwork all I found was this:

http://browse.deviantart.com/?qh=&section=&q=prince+of+nothing#/d27ruol

The new PoV character in WLW?

[jurble]

We can only hope.

[Curethan]

It's awful, but I don't see people being able to ignore the biases and discriminatory beliefs their acculturation implants them with anytime soon.

They shouldn't ignore them. Presenting these associations so they are creepy or ridiculous rather than desirable is how one can draw attention to their negative aspects.

Bakker is using overblown metaphors like penis size = male potency, aggresion = rape and boyish attributes = sexually appealling overtly to try and achieve this (I think), but sometimes it goes too far or doesn't work and, out of context, these look like laughably weird attempts at titilation as in the examples on previous pages.

I'm not crusading on the issues I mentioned, just trying to back up that point with examples.

[Humanderthal]

Thread took a wierd turn...

5 pages, 0 pictures. I am disappoint.

If it helps at all, I plan on posting some roughs and concept sketchs to map my progress.

[Old Nan]

Yes, I don't understand. At all. Can you honestly say that you would rather be dismembered or brutally murdered than be sexually violated? There is no comparison. I am not trying to undermine how atrocious sex crimes are, but to be appalled by a rape analogy and not by endless graphic violence is undermining how atrocious violence and murder are. Rape is an awful, awful thing, and while I haven't personally been raped I've been friend, family, and spouse to women who have, and I don't think a single one of them would, if given the choice between having been raped or having the man slit their throat, have chosen death.

Well, of all the crimes you list, I'd consider murder the least serious. Rank the various forms of torture, including rape, as you wish according to your prejudices.

Rape scenes are okay, but not rape metaphors or simile?

Well, rape scenes can theoretically affect the plot. Rape metaphor is just pure titillation.

this is a GRRM board, for Christ's sake. There's plenty of rape and messed up shit in SoIF, so let's not get on a moral high horse here.

:blink: I'm far more of a Bakker fan than I am one of Martin. I respect ASOIAF, but I don't much like it at all, so please don't try to taint me by association.

[Spastic Plastic]

Well, of all the crimes you list, I'd consider murder the least serious.

I'd say murder is the most serious. At least victims of rape can go on with their lives if they choose to. Of course, killing someone isn't viewed as badly by people as raping or torturing - because sometimes it's necessary to kill in order to defend your own life, while there's never an excuse for raping or torturing.

Rape metaphor is just pure titillation.

Yeah. It's not the first time Bakker uses bizarro metaphors, either.

I respect ASOIAF, but I don't much like it at all, so please don't try to taint me by association.

Then what are you doing here in first place?

[Curethan]

Thread took a wierd turn...

All Baker threads do. Sorry.

They should get Giger to turn out some cover art for unholy consult, imo.

[Cantabile]

Well, of all the crimes you list, I'd consider murder the least serious. Rank the various forms of torture, including rape, as you wish according to your prejudices.

You think that murder is the least serious crime? How is snuffing a human life possibly less severe than simply harming it? Rape may be horrendous, and cause many victims to suffer long term psychological effects, but our minds and bodies are designed to heal and continue living. Victims learn through therapy, group counseling, support, or even just by themselves to weather the trauma, and they can still live perfectly happy lives. If they are murdered they simply wouldn't even have a chance of living.

Can you name a single judicial system that ranks rape as more severe than murder? Because every one that I know of has much harsher sentences for murder than sex crimes.

Well, rape scenes can theoretically affect the plot. Rape metaphor is just pure titillation

How is it in any way titillation? Do you think the readers or authors are actually tickling their fancy with a rape metaphor? I already elaborated how a rape metaphor served a function in that particular passage, refer to my previous post on the subject.

[L’Age d’or]

wow. jurbs is not kidding.

Dream of fisherman's wife lol perfect title :bowdown::bowdown::bowdown::rofl::rofl::lmao::lmao:

[Old Nan]

You think that murder is the least serious crime? How is snuffing a human life possibly less severe than simply harming it? [...] Victims learn through therapy, group counseling, support, or even just by themselves to weather the trauma, and they can still live perfectly happy lives. If they are murdered they simply wouldn't even have a chance of living.

Precisely that. Murder is a victimless crime.

How is it in any way titillation? Do you think the readers or authors are actually tickling their fancy with a rape metaphor?

Yes. And ours, of course.