Direwolves attacking Tyrion (and their signficance/powers in general)

[Alexia]

I'm rereading GoT for the first time right now. My take on Sansa from my first read might have been colored by how well she learns political manipulation from Littlefinger. I will pay special attention in my reread to her. If I see anything interesting I'll let you know.

I'm especially passionate when it comes to Sansa. She gets maligned far more than she deserves.

Ned and Robb are the politically inept Starks of the family. Its not necessarily a family trait; in fact, Ned was not raised to be the heir (his elder brother Brandon was) and the ancient Kings of Winter were said to be cold, cruel men. One of the wonders of ASOIAF is that each charactere has a distinct personality. Sansa's influence through adolescence has been Cersei and Littlefinger and being a normal human being, she will pick up an interest in politics. If only to protect herself from becoming a victim again...and she even thinks to herself at one point that she never asked to play the Game of Thrones, she never wanted to, one step and she is dead.

Just the same as Arya's influence has been Gregor, Sandor, and Jaquen and look where she is now! Not a path I would have expected for the daughter of Eddard Stark.

[Aubrem]

I'm especially passionate when it comes to Sansa. She gets maligned far more than she deserves.

Ned and Robb are the politically inept Starks of the family. Its not necessarily a family trait; in fact, Ned was not raised to be the heir (his elder brother Brandon was) and the ancient Kings of Winter were said to be cold, cruel men. One of the wonders of ASOIAF is that each charactere has a distinct personality. Sansa's influence through adolescence has been Cersei and Littlefinger and being a normal human being, she will pick up an interest in politics. If only to protect herself from becoming a victim again...and she even thinks to herself at one point that she never asked to play the Game of Thrones, she never wanted to, one step and she is dead.

Just the same as Arya's influence has been Gregor, Sandor, and Jaquen and look where she is now! Not a path I would have expected for the daughter of Eddard Stark.

I agree that Sansa unfairly looks bad. She only ever did what she was told and trained to do and I'd never blame anyone for trying to survive. Still, she showed unpleasant self-interest when she betrayed her father to Cersei. Of course she didn't know what it would lead to but still, she chose to go tell the Queen her father's business because she herself didn't want to leave court. That wasn't just passive doing as she was told or trying to get by and survive - that was a piece of pro-active, selfish politics. Duty and honor out the window. I don't believe for a minute that she thought her duty was to the queen in this. Sansa just didn't want to go back to Winterfell and was willing to do what she needed to to stop it.

That doesn't make her evil, it just makes her less of a Stark imo. When Arya gets her wolf back we'll see what the Sandor=>Faceless Men path has led her to. I'm not sure they're not about duty and honor in the long run.

[Alexia]

I take it when you were a child, you never ran to mommy to beg for intercession with daddy for whatever decision he'd made you didn't like?

Politics, &#@&. It was a dumbass child acting like a dumbass child who had no idea of what the situation was because nobody bothered to explain it to her. Childishness is NOT betrayal, betrayal requires awareness and knowledge. Did Ned tell her ANYTHING, I ask you? He didn't even bother to tell her that the Lannisters were their enemies!

[Aubrem]

I take it when you were a child, you never ran to mommy to beg for intercession with daddy for whatever decision he'd made you didn't like?

Politics, &#@&. It was a dumbass child acting like a dumbass child who had no idea of what the situation was because nobody bothered to explain it to her. Childishness is NOT betrayal, betrayal requires awareness and knowledge. Did Ned tell her ANYTHING, I ask you? He didn't even bother to tell her that the Lannisters were their enemies!

Cersei was not her mother and yes, any child knows the difference between family and not family. When you were a child did you go telling people private family business in order to get around a parent's decision? I suppose some do but it's not a good indication of character. Loyalty is an instinct in most people, they know better. The child of an old family of kings would not only have the natural human instinct of loyalty, they'd be taught it as well. Sansa was way out of line here. That doesn't make her a bad guy in the long run but it is an indication of weak/bad character. Neither Robb, Jon, Bran nor even Arya would have betrayed family. Rickon we don't know - poor kid has had so little parenting who knows what he'd do.

I suppose there's an argument that Sansa's family betrayed her first in killing Lady (and as I insist, symbolically cutting her off from the family) but boy did she bring that on herself with her lie - a baldfaced lie while her own sister stood there begging for the truth.

[Alexia]

Baldfaced lie? You mean the part where she was crying and scared and said "I don't remember," right before Arya threw her to the ground and started to pummel her? A tattling 11 year old shows bad character? Sounds like every 11 year old to me - and Cersei may not have been her mother but she sure was the woman that Ned selected to be her mother-in-law and therefore is an excellent stand-in for a mother while Sansa was separated from her own.

Robb has loyalty? You mean the part where he leaves Sansa and Arya for Lannisters, I suppose, or when he breaks his oaths. I'd damn well call that a betrayal of his family. So I guess he's not a true Stark either. Bran surrendered Winterfell, is he a Stark? Arya has renounced her family in favor of becoming No One, so she must not be a Stark either. :rolleyes: And Jon is the guy who entertained himself by beating the crap out of weaker, untrained members of the NW! We've hit on the major Stark trait - Bullies! Oathbreakers!

Rickon has had plenty of quality care, incidentally. He has been raised in luxury under the care of Ser Rodrick and Maester Luwin in his parents' absence.

[Aubrem]

Baldfaced lie? You mean the part where she was crying and scared and said "I don't remember," right before Arya threw her to the ground and started to pummel her? A tattling 11 year old shows bad character? Sounds like every 11 year old to me - and Cersei may not have been her mother but she sure was the woman that Ned selected to be her mother-in-law and therefore is an excellent stand-in for a mother while Sansa was separated from her own.

Robb has loyalty? You mean the part where he leaves Sansa and Arya for Lannisters, I suppose, or when he breaks his oaths. I'd damn well call that a betrayal of his family. So I guess he's not a true Stark either. Bran surrendered Winterfell, is he a Stark? Arya has renounced her family in favor of becoming No One, so she must not be a Stark either. :rolleyes: And Jon is the guy who entertained himself by beating the crap out of weaker, untrained members of the NW! We've hit on the major Stark trait - bullies!

Rickon has had plenty of quality care, incidentally. He has been raised in luxury under the care of Ser Rodrick and Maester Luwin in his parents' absence.

So many very different possible readings = great characterization and writing. GRRM rocks. : )

[shadow catlady]

I'm especially passionate when it comes to Sansa. She gets maligned far more than she deserves.

[...]

Just the same as Arya's influence has been Gregor, Sandor, and Jaquen and look where she is now! Not a path I would have expected for the daughter of Eddard Stark.

Agree that Sansa gets maligned too often; I also like the way she's set up to be the pretty popular girl you hate but she's more, she's strong and grows smarter and more interesting with age...it makes me imagine so many possibilities for her.

Arya's influences: Jon, Ned, Syrio, Yoren, Jaqen, Sandor, KoM...in narrative order, maybe even in order from most to least influential, but not all-inclusive, just the ones that stood out for me as strongest. I think these mentors define who's she's become/ becoming.

Gregor may influence her revenge issues, but I think that started with Joffrey (or long before). How do you see him influencing Arya?

[Alexia]

Agree that Sansa gets maligned too often; I also like the way she's set up to be the pretty popular girl you hate but she's more, she's strong and grows smarter and more interesting with age...it makes me imagine so many possibilities for her.

Arya's influences: Jon, Ned, Syrio, Yoren, Jaqen, Sandor, KoM...in narrative order, maybe even in order from most to least influential, but not all-inclusive, just the ones that stood out for me as strongest. I think these mentors define who's she's become/ becoming.

Gregor may influence her revenge issues, but I think that started with Joffrey (or long before). How do you see him influencing Arya?

Her list started about the time she was with Gregor. I always felt he and his men had a tremendous influence on her, she watched them torturing people to death on a daily basis, they killed Lommy in front of her eyes (undoubtedly a traumatic experience for a young child) and she stabbed the Tickler to death quite brutally. She never really saw the depths of Joff's brutality, she learned about all that from Gregor and Co, IMO.

And I really do like Arya as well as Sansa. She's a great character and in the first book, the sweetest little thing. But I get so frustrated to read negative comparisons of Sansa with her claiming that Sansa is no longer a Stark because of a couple stupid things she did at odds with the family values she was taught when I can turn around and point to just as many with Arya. I doubt Stark values involved stabbing men to death, or beating up children because she's in a bad mood and they're being rude, or sending assassins to kill people (Ned would spin in his grave). But I would never consider saying that she's not a true Stark because she acts like a child or because not everything she does is something her father would approve of.

[DizoakiusMaximus]

I doubt Stark values involved stabbing men to death, or beating up children because she's in a bad mood and they're being rude, or sending assassins to kill people (Ned would spin in his grave).

Well, Brandon would have probably approved, at least about her fiery temper.

Anyway, my answer to this original post is: The wolves came after Tyrion because he had a pork chop in his pocket. :)

[Aubrem]

Her list started about the time she was with Gregor. I always felt he and his men had a tremendous influence on her, she watched them torturing people to death on a daily basis, they killed Lommy in front of her eyes (undoubtedly a traumatic experience for a young child) and she stabbed the Tickler to death quite brutally. She never really saw the depths of Joff's brutality, she learned about all that from Gregor and Co, IMO.

And I really do like Arya as well as Sansa. She's a great character and in the first book, the sweetest little thing. But I get so frustrated to read negative comparisons of Sansa with her claiming that Sansa is no longer a Stark because of a couple stupid things she did at odds with the family values she was taught when I can turn around and point to just as many with Arya. I doubt Stark values involved stabbing men to death, or beating up children because she's in a bad mood and they're being rude, or sending assassins to kill people (Ned would spin in his grave). But I would never consider saying that she's not a true Stark because she acts like a child or because not everything she does is something her father would approve of.

I think Arya is a Stark through and through. Yes, her sense of justice has run amok but that doesn't make her less a Stark. The Starks are a hard, cold people. Duty and loyalty, yes - but cold and hard and able to do the things that needs to be done and to face the Winter That Is Coming. I wouldn't confuse them with "nice."

[shadow catlady]

Her list started about the time she was with Gregor. I always felt he and his men had a tremendous influence on her, she watched them torturing people to death on a daily basis, they killed Lommy in front of her eyes (undoubtedly a traumatic experience for a young child) and she stabbed the Tickler to death quite brutally. She never really saw the depths of Joff's brutality, she learned about all that from Gregor and Co, IMO.

All that Gregor violence was another loss of innocence for Arya, good point. (Which I see as the narrative parallel to Sansa's gradual and vivid realization that the beautiful court scenes she worshipped were full of lies and hate and treachery underneath layers of "courtesy.")

I still get the sense she sensed Joffrey was an ass waaay back in the day, and at the least on the Mycah/ lost direwolves day, though she was too inexperienced to guess at the extent of his issues.

[jurble]

Lady growled at Ser Ilyn Payne and Sandor Clegane. :) Which really only reinforces your point.

Thank god Ned killed Lady then, I can't imagine nor want to what she would to Sandor now.

[Errant Bard]

So, to continue a bit with the derail:

I think Arya is a Stark through and through. Yes, her sense of justice has run amok but that doesn't make her less a Stark. The Starks are a hard, cold people.

No, the Starks are a varied bunch. Some elope cry at songs and elope with their prince, some go in the enemy fortress screaming they'll kill the son of the madman king, some raise a bastard of them as a son and accept to betray the realm to save their daughter, some break their words to be nice to a girl they impulsively fucked, some are scaredy cats despairing of not being able to walk anymore, some are hotheads attacking their own allies.

Reducing their characterization to a blanket statement about what one unreliable narrator character had to say about unreliable history that may just be myths, of what the Kings of Winter may have been millenias ago, seems extremely far-fetched. Not to mention that among these guys, we have at least one who left castle and duty and all to sail the world, and another who was emo enough about it to burn all the ships the North had.

This "Stark" argument is always so circular. It's never explained how one can stop being a Stark (I suppose you have a family name, how do you stop being that?), but there is always one definition of Stark created of thin air just so the desired conclusion is reached (one character not meeting it, or meeting it). Case in point, the quoted argument above: Stark are this, Arya is this, so Arya is a Stark. Not content to make up one of the premises (Starks are...), it uses the syllogistic fallacy of the undistributed middle to reach the conclusion. Crock.

I still get the sense she sensed Joffrey was an ass waaay back in the day, and at the least on the Mycah/ lost direwolves day, though she was too inexperienced to guess at the extent of his issues.

Sensed? She knew it from her first chapter in AGOT, when she runs from her crooked stitches and watches Joffrey being an ass to Robb and Rodrick Cassel during practice. As I said, let's not get carried away about super-senses, when normal ones are obviously enough. (the thing about Direwolves having magical means of sensing hostility, or howling to death is especially bad considering non-supernatural dogs do that in reality)

[Dreadwolf]

Interesting Lyanna musing...the Ned killing Lady scene is among the hardest for me to read.

The very idea of Ned suffocated (or somehow otherwise executed) Lyanna out of duty or perverse honor or I don*t know why is more distasteful than originally-briliant IMHO.

In his conversation with Varys he made it clear that there are things which matter more than his life so He would never say lies about why he wanted Joffrey dethrone/ exposed. When however his daughter was put at the stake he got softer as it happens.

Projecting to Robb Stark -

It was the same after Catelyn released Jaime.

No matter what honor/ duty and so other elastic terms could have indocrinated his consciousness - Robb made it clear - No one would dare speak ill for his lady mother or he will face the wolves justice at the spot.

Everything mayhaps in fiction but if it (that EB sppoky suggestion) comes true one day I could consider burning the books and pay the ashes some last honours in a ceremonial way. :)

[Errant Bard]

No matter what honor/ duty and so other elastic terms could have indocrinated his consciousness - Robb made it clear - No one would dare speak ill for his lady mother or he will face the wolves justice at the spot.

And at the same time, he sacrificed his own sister, the one married to an enemy of his, didn't he?

(also Ned wasn't 15 during the usurper war, and I doubt Robb would have killed Lady)

Also, that suggestion was tongue in cheek... mostly.

[Alexia]

Well, Brandon would have probably approved, at least about her fiery temper.

I'm not so sure, Brandon is the guy who went into a rage and went with a group of friends to kill the lover his sister absconded with. ;) I rather think the idea of his niece falling over top of a body to stab it repeatedly while screaming at it would have completely scandalized the poor guy.

I think Arya is a Stark through and through. Yes, her sense of justice has run amok but that doesn't make her less a Stark.

I think Arya is a Stark too, and so is Sansa. Yes, she made a few childish mistakes and trusted the wrong people but that doesn't make her less a Stark. She actually takes after Ned much more than Arya.

Not to mention that among these guys, we have at least one who left castle and duty and all to sail the world, and another who was emo enough about it to burn all the ships the North had.

*snip*

This "Stark" argument is always so circular. It's never explained how one can stop being a Stark (I suppose you have a family name, how do you stop being that?), but there is always one definition of Stark created of thin air just so the desired conclusion is reached (one character not meeting it, or meeting it).

QFT. Its interesting too, that DM refers to fiery temper and Aubrem refers to "cold and hard." Seems like polar opposites to me...so under Aubrem's definition of Stark, I think Brandon and Lyanna fail to meet it. ;)

[DizoakiusMaximus]

Don't get me wrong, I don't think Brandon would have been TOO enthused about Arya killing Dareon, but some of her earlier exploits with Sansa (the orange in the face was classic!) would have definitely elicited some chuckles from her uncle were he alive to see them (Benjen too, I'm sure).

Of course these "chuckles" might just be of the variety of "well, its funny, but I'm glad she's Ned's kid." The type of thing that allows you to laugh at the troublemaking of a young niece or nephew, while your brother or sister attempt to lay down the law. This isn't to say that Arya's later exploits (like when she killed The Tickler or Dareon) are to be considered "troublemaking", but I think Brandon would have approved of her bravery, ability to think on her feet, and her ability to defend herself when the occasion called for it. Like I said before, they also share a temper (as did Lyanna, now that I remember the Tale of the Little Crannogman)

It's hard to know what Ned would have thought of Arya's character. I'm sure he'd be horrified to know his little girl has committed murder a number of times, and has killed in self defense as well, although he was the one who allowed her to take the "Dancing" lessons with Syrio, although he may have done that just to keep her happy, with no real expectation that she'd ever use it in real life. Ned also seemed to have wanted a "traditional" life for Arya when she grew up, he talks about how she'll eventually marry a powerful lord and have children, etc etc. which is about as far removed from where she is now as can be.

[Alexia]

Don't get me wrong, I don't think Brandon would have been TOO enthused about Arya killing Dareon, but some of her earlier exploits with Sansa (the orange in the face was classic!) would have definitely elicited some chuckles from her uncle were he alive to see them (Benjen too, I'm sure).

Agree. She and Sansa were both spoiled, innocent girls in the first book and I can easily see Arya being the favorite of her uncles (Sansa is too girly for that ;)).

Ned also seemed to have wanted a "traditional" life for Arya when she grew up, he talks about how she'll eventually marry a powerful lord and have children, etc etc. which is about as far removed from where she is now as can be.

I definitely think this is what Ned expected for both his daughters. Remember how he took Bran to a beheading at the age of seven and said Rickon needed to stop being scared of a giant wolf puppy at the age of three, but he was OUTRAGED at the idea that Sansa would stand in a courtroom and listen to a petition from the commoners he expected she would one day rule. Also remember his attitude towards the sword lessons, IIRC he thought something like "Jory could give her the rudiments of slash and parry without any of this nonsense." He never wanted her to be trained to actually fight, just to learn a little bit for fun.

I think Ned would be appalled at the circumstances of both his daughters, but especially Arya.

[Miriel]

I too hope that Sansa is still a Stark.

But I have a vague recollection of Martin himself answering in the affirmative when a reader speculated that b/c Lady was dead Sansa had lost some of her Starkness.

Anyone else remember this? Can someone find it in SSM? Thanks!

ETA: I did a quick search and found this reference to what I am remembering in post #15, but that was all I found:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/19616-ladys-death/

[Errant Bard]

But I have a vague recollection of Martin himself answering in the affirmative when a reader speculated that b/c Lady was dead Sansa had lost some of her Starkness.

Nothing so blatant:

In regards to the conversation about the dire wolves and the Starks the point was made (I forget by whom) that Lady was dead and Sansa still alive to which I replied that Sansa wasn't really much of a Stark anymore. IIRC (this is a little hazy), at this point GRRM kind of leaned back in his chair, smiled and said something to the effect of "A very astute observation." (Note: I was hoping someone else would bring this up as I didn't want to do any hornblowing... since Terra brought it up, but didn't recall the wording I felt the need. If anyone remembers his words differently I'll gladly recant.)

"didn't recall the wording"+biased reporter= *shrug* (basically, GRRM evaded the question)