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Direwolves attacking Tyrion (and their signficance/powers in general)


Aubrem

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And I was pointing she isn't defending her family, she is defending her possession of Needle. Really, reread the passage.

I did humbly accept your precious advice and my opinion is unchanged. For I read 'defending her possession of Needle' as 'defending something that means her family for her'. She gave up easily her other possession of the stick sword to avoid the fight.

Oh come on. Give me the evidence, even a slight hint she was happy at Ned being a traitor. I don't believe there is one. She was never happy to have Ned framed. She was only happy when she thought her plea would actually save his life.

She was happy when Joffrey loves her enough to spare her traitor father's life. It was just vexing to see her quickly admit Ned being a traitor so that she can still marry her dear Joffrey. But I do not blame her here. When there's no Arya to fight Joffrey and make her testify, loving him is her own bane not any other's :)

2) Arya tried to save Micah the butcher boy (who's not a Northerner, he's actually part of Robert's convoy), yet it's not when Sansa saves Dontos or tries to save Ned?

My bad. Mycah's not a Northerner, just her new friend. So both girls take risk to help others. I guess that means both of them are kind and brave at heart. Didn't I agree that Sansa is a good kid? And one doesn't have be a Stark to try to save their father in their own way, like when Sansa pleaded to Joffrey and when Arya unsheathed Needle to save him.

Since we have the privilege to look inside the characters' heads, they do not have to do anything big and impressive for us to judge them; their POV's show what they think and how they feel even when they're doing nothing. I would have withdrawn my opinion that Sansa is not Stark-like if, for example, she had thought things in this way: 'One day there will be a Stark in Winterfell again, and when the day comes I would be there to set things right.'

That was Bran's thoughts, a crippled 8-year old boy, after he met that Liddle guy. (Of course he should escape Winterfell to come back one day, after surrendering the castle to avoid unnecessary killings. Boltons killed its people, not Theon to whom he yielded.)

If Bran was just a good boy, he would have thanked him for the blueberry cakes and remembered him fondly. Prince Bran does more than that; he sees it as his people offering him a kindness and swears that one day, when there is a Stark in Winterfell again, he will do justice by paying them back a hundredfold for the cakes. Such bits of thoughts make them who they are as much as their actions.

If Sansa was given few chances to prove herself to be a Stark, I think her fate (GRRM, that is) is leading her where she is not a Stark anymore. She's the only living Stark child whose wolf died while direwolves keep thinking about their lost sister. I don't think anything in this series is meaningless. About Arya's fate I'm not sure, I'll have to know the result of her 'training' to see if she truly lost her Starkish self. But I tend to believe she would not, as long as Nymeria's alive and she keeps Needle. (that seems quite superstitious, by the way)

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For curiosity's sake, care to square the idea that she lied because she didn't want him to be mad at her with the fact that she told Ned the truth? And its an overstatement to say she lied, she prevaricated.

Okay first things first.

Prevaricate - to speak falsely or misleadingly; deliberately misstate or create an incorrect impression; lie. Synonymous with guess what? Lie (gasp)

Lie - –noun

1.a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood.

2.something intended or serving to convey a false impression; imposture: His flashy car was a lie that deceived no one.

3.an inaccurate or false statement.

4.the charge or accusation of lying: He flung the lie back at his accusers.

–verb (used without object)

5.to speak falsely or utter untruth knowingly, as with intent to deceive.

6.to express what is false; convey a false impression.

–verb (used with object)

7.to bring about or affect by lying (often used reflexively): to lie oneself out of a difficulty; accustomed to lying his way out of difficulties.

Were Joffrey or the King and Queen there when she told her father the truth? When telling the truth really mattered she was in a completely different situation. The King, Queen, Renly and several other people were there, people that would eventually become his subjects. Anyone can see that calling the heir to the throne a liar in front of all of those people would normally be bad enough, but what makes it even worse is that they are to wed and her telling them the truth would not only reflect badly on Joffrey but it would also make him furious and at her. She obviously knew that and not wanting to ruin things with Joffrey guess what she did, she chose Joffrey and lied/prevaricated(whatever you want to call it) and in doing so went against the pack and was punished for it by losing Lady. Sansa never had a big connection with the Old Gods anyway. She really didn't like Winterfell that much and prayed to the 7 so maybe it was inevitable that she would have lost Lady. Now I'm not saying that she isn't a Stark because she is but maybe lesser of a Stark for it.

For what its worth if Cersei didn't make a big show of the whole thing and if things were settled just between Robert and Ned I don't think she would have lied but that isn't how it happened unfortunately :(.

The idea that she wouldn't have lost Lady is unsupported by the narrative.

Robert wasn't deciding based on what he thought - he was deciding based on what the witnesses told him. If Sansa had told the truth Cersei wouldn't have been able to insist on a wolf's death and even if she had, Robert would have been able to say that according to the witness, Joff provoked the wolf. That is all clear from the narrative.

I would think this. If they knew that Joffrey was drunk/buzzed whatever and that he was swinging his sword at Arya and that Nymeria was only protecting Arya from Joffrey they couldn't with good cause say that direwolves are dangerous creatures to other people and even their owners which is what justified them killing Lady.

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The two post above perfectly illustrated the two points I wanted to make! Those being that we do not need to judge the characters on their actions because we know their thoughts and that is a much more powerfull tool. For example you may turn a corner to see a person hit somebody over the head with, say, a pot. Now form this point of view you don't have a clear idea of what happened and why these people were in that situation and why they acted in that way. However if you could hear the thoughts of one or both of those people you would know how they were feeling personaly and why the made their chices the way they did. This may not change your point of view as you may believe that hitting somebody with a pot is bad and can never be justified. OTOH you may find out that the person being hit had just confessed to murder or was trying to hurt the other person or that they had been slowly abusing them in some way for years. The point I think that this highlights is that judging charcter is a very personal thing. As we've seen people will never agree on what is right and what is wrong and on whether Sansa is any less a Stark than the others simply because we all have very different personal morals, ethics, religions, belief systems etc. So no amount of quoting or postulating will convince anyone to your point of view unless you can simply show them something they hadn't previously considered.

My second point being that telling your parent the truth when you feel safe and protected and there is just the two of you in a room is vastly different to telling the truth in a 'court' full of people. Telling Ned the truth had no real implications for Sansa so she was happy to do so. However when she is asked to do the same in front of everyone else when they are all looking at her, judging her and when there are plenty of ways that what she says will effect her life, happiness and comfort in the future, the choice is not so easy or straightforward for Sansa.

I however don't think that we should judge Sansa too harshly for this. Witness protection schemes come to mind at this point. In todys system witness are protected form any mistreatment fro parties/peoples they might offend when giving theor statements. Sansa didnt have this. She knew that what she said would effect her future relationship with the Queen and with Joff, and possibly with her family. I also don't think we should judge Arya harshy for her reaction. Sansa was the only person (save Mycah who was not around to be questioned and who probably wouldn't have been listened to or trusted due to his status anyway) who could back-up her story. When she realised her sister was going to either refuse to tell the truth or try to not take part at all she became very mad and frustrated that no-one was going to get to the truth, and so she lashed out at her. I remember being in several fights with my own sister in similar situations(that is one one of us had done something wrong and the other was lying) when we were young and if anything I think it is normal and teaches valuable lessons.

We must also consider the possibility that if Cersei had been willing to wait until everyone had calmed down that Sansa may have been persuaded to talk one way of the other. So maybe instead of blaming the two very emmotional, scared and stressed children, we should blame the adults that were conducting the 'trial'. We'll never know what might have been if things were done differently though, so we should focus on what did happen. I.e Lady was taken from Sansa and killed for a crime that Sansa nor Lady committed. Instead of seeing this as a punishment form the old gods for her not acting like a Stark or just plain lying, it could just be GRRM trying to start some character growth for Sansa and Arya. Life is not fair etc. It could just be his way of saying that its time for them to start growing up as winter is coming.

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...So no amount of quoting or postulating will convince anyone to your point of view unless you can simply show them something they hadn't previously considered.

I think that's a very good point, but it made me laugh. You're right: it's best to present information; sometimes even a small detail is sufficient, and some people will adjust their beliefs according to such new information.

OTOH, a number of people on these boards are masters at yelling down any information or position contrary to their preexisting beliefs. Whatever it takes - twisted logic, name-calling, snark, irrelevant arguments - they will do to insist that the opposing poster is wrong. They don't need to do it well; they are satisfied, apparently, by merely insisting loudly and angrily. They have no interest in becoming more enlightened, but only in espousing their preferred belief. Sigh. But still, in principle you have it exactly right.

While I agree that it would have been very difficult for Sansa to make a public statement that Joff was lying, I can't simply say it was therefore OK that she didn't. It's when the pressure is on that character is tested. Sansa failed this difficult test of character, and the price was huge. Not only did she lose Lady, a very real personal loss and a symbolic loss of connection to the Old Gods, but she also maintained her dangerous fantasy that Joff could be trusted, could be hers. She not only lied to others, but to herself as well. She willfully ignored the lesson of Joff's cowardice and cruelty that was there for her to see, choosing instead to pretend everything was still OK. This in turn led to her continuing to think that KL and the court of the King was a better place for her (and her family) than Winterfell. Because KL and the King's court is anathema to the best interests of the Starklings, Sansa's unwillingness to relinquish her dreams caused her to act contrary to her family's interests, such as when she tattled to Cersei to try to stay in KL when her father had concluded that they needed to go to Winterfell. Where they'd have been safe.

I agree that Arya did not behave admirably, but she was provoked by her sister's perfidy. It is not because I am a fan of Arya's that I'm inclined to forgive her; instead, I'm a fan of Arya's because of her wild intolerance for injustice. She lacks sufficient self control, but her heart is firmly in the right place, unlike Sansa's.

Even though I partly disagree, I appreciate any poster that believes in exchanging ideas and facts rather than merely grinding an axe.

ETA: This isn't to say Sansa is a horrible person; she's inclined to be kind to people. Moreover, she may improve, gain resolve, do the right thing when the chips are down. But thus far, she's acted like an ordinary child might, not in the way a Starkling realist like Arya would have. Of course, it's easy for Arya; she never believed in the songs in the first place, and had no silly dreams to give up.

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I just found another example of a direwolf eerily helping a Stark. Arya, when still with Yoren, in the stone tower sleeping just as Amory Lorch and his men find them and all hell breaks loose. Arya is sleeping but is awoken by a wolf howling - it's in her dream and it's urgent. She wakes in a panic and insists that there is danger, they're being warned by the wolves of danger, even though everyone around her tells her to go back to sleep, there's no wolf. It's not actually all that helpful because immediately after their own sentry sounds the alarm and bad guys arrive. She only got about 30 seconds warning.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I believe the direwolves attacking Tyrion is significant.

First, Tyrion is a cat or a lion. Direwolves are not dissimilar from dogs and who do dogs chase? Just him being a Lannister will make him someone the direwolves want to attack

Secondly, we've been told that Tyrion, not Jamie, is destined to become like Tywin. Foreshadowing that Tyrion will turn quite evil...

Thirdly, Tyrion is a kinslayer. More bad news if you're a Tyrion fan. He seems doomed to a dark end.

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lol, such a long thread. The answer is pretty simple in my eyes. Tyrion is part of the Lannister family, so that's why the wolves attack him. Additionally, he knows about Bran's fall.

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I just found another example of a direwolf eerily helping a Stark.

I am not sure if it was not mentioned somewhere above but another important moment was when Bran met Sam Tarly at the Nightfort. The Stark boy was not sure if they can trust that strange fat young man who was dressed like a black brother but was not even behaving as such. It turned out that Bran*s hesitation was not shared by Summer who after his sudden appearance sniffed Sams hand and licked it in a most friendly manner. Then Bran needed no more evidences that Sam can be relied and trusted upon as their genuine friend.

It is still ambiguous b/c a some time while ago Summer was initially suspisious to Jojen and Meera when they first appeared in WF. But who knows may be direwolves just improve their +abilities with growing up.

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  • 2 years later...

There are 3 things to think about here: Tyrion's role, the mystique of the dire wolves, and why they attack him in particular. We know the wolves have some sort mystical foresight, and that it isnt just a strong sense of imminent harm to the Stark boys. Of course, there's the possibility that the wolves just dont like anyone, but who actually thinks that? I am under the impression that the dire wolves (and whatever supernatural forces that guide them) are aiming to shape the story, and Tyrion is the 'Joker' if you will. He does have a past as a fool but thus far, his role has been to alter the path the dire wolves have laid and have us believing is the future. For example, Tyrion having a part in convincing Aegon to prematurely go to Westeros. I think Tyrion's actions, since he is all over Westeros and has interacted with the most POV characters, is directly affecting the path the wolves (or the supernatural forces connected to them) intend to lay before the Stark children.

To better understand my take, lets look at the nature of prophecies, of which some come true and some do not. I am of the variety that believes the failed prophecies are a series of possible futures that did not come to fruition for whatever reason (but may follow the "destiny" dynamic wherein they come true but with a different twist at a different time, another subject entirely though). Through prophecies and stories (such as Old Nan's), GRRM has laid out possible storylines and uses Tyrion as a device to alter his story and the futures of the characters in ASOIAF, with the ability to finish the series with one of the fabled endings involving a particular hero (an ending with Azor Ahai or an ending with The Night King and etc) . He did say Tyrion was his favorite character, and I think he gives GRRM the opportunity to alter and rewrite the story as he's known to do. At present, Tyrion is in the middle of the "Mereenese Knot" and will undoubtedly have a wealth of influence upon the futures of Daenerys et al.

I further believe this to be true because the dire wolves growl at people, yes, but only attack those that are a direct threat. But why do they attack Tyrion in particular? GRRM makes it a point to tell us how the wolf is reacting to the situation; in the case of Nymeria attacking Joff, Bran seeing Jamie/Cersei and Grey Wind attacking people at the Twins, there is enough evidence to at least support that. Tyrion just made friends with Jon and at no point in the books is he a direct threat to the Starks, especially coming back from the Wall bearing good tidings for them, Bran primarily, who is a linchpin of the plot. Sure he's a Lannister, but he has helped Bran and Jon, two extremely significant characters, and they themselves have acknowledged it. I agree that the dire wolves take after their owners and Robb was upset at the time, but they all jumped on Tyrion and could've killed him, and instead ripped his shirt in warning. That line of thinking does not satisfy me and GRRM is too deep. I think this is a case of the Dire wolves disapproving of Tyrion helping the Starks, because it alters the path they have for Bran, which is to become some sort of great greenseer. Offering him a special saddle may do that, renewing Bran's hopes to be a knight, which is not the path of the greenseer.

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I will seize the exhuming of this archive as an occasion to observe a minute of silence for the loss of our friend AvengingAryaFan, who got so disappointed by being proved utterly wrong in everything he believed by ADWD, that he never showed his face again on the forums, maybe he even stopped reading the series, too.

Godspeed.

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Looking back on this with the benefit of hindsight, maybe the wolves saw Tyrion for what he was all along and what became evident in ADWD and in subsequent hindsight-assisted rereads: that Tyrion is not actually a good person.

Weak argument. If that were the reason the direwolves would have to be quite bulimic since there are quite a few people who are "not a good person". Theon would have been eaten the moment any direwolf was big enough to get his throat into his fangs. And what about Roose in Robb's camp? A good person?

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I'm guessing the wolves were just picking up on the Starks' apprehensions and mistrust of the Lannisters. Tyrion is a Lannister, and not one single Stark trusted him at the moment the wolves were attacking him. I think at that point the wolves were just basically acting on the kids' emotions/feelings, and Tyrion certainly wouldn't evoke good feelings in any of the Starks. Add in his "unique" appearance that might be scary to the younger Starks, and his wiseass mouth that might anger the older Starks, and you don't have a recipe for the wolves being good around him.

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Thank you Hurm. I am intrigued by your post. And at last this issue is being tackled in the final page of the thread.

Direwolf mysticism - Direwolves as wargs in their own right

While I wouldn't dismiss it, I think a lot of references to the direwolves as tools/dispatches/extensions of the Old Gods is a little up in the air and waiting for something to ground it. However, I would like to point at the very tangible confirmation in the text of how the direwolves can sense their siblings (including very specific details of the situations) over hundreds of leagues of land. So there, plain as day, is a demonstration of how the direwolves are sensitive something/much beyond their immediate senses. Perhaps the direwolves can warg so well with the Starks and potentiate their warg gifts because in a certain sense the direwolves THEMSELVES are wargs of a sort, able to connect with their human warg-partners as well as with their siblings.

So let's bear in mind this "wargness" of the direwolves and also consider how the direwolves affect each other. Summer and Shaggy dog spent a lot of time together in Winterfell and the Wolfswood before Rickon and Bran parted ways. There are instances of Summer keeping Shaggydog in line and curbing his behaviour (though this may be Bran's sense of responsibility expressing itself).

The Grandeur of Direwolf Riding

Can I just say that I'm a little disappointed to have not seen any of the children literally riding their direwolves. Rickon is small, very small in comparison to his now grown direwolf and Bran can walk. Summer is a perfect mobility for Bran not on is it swift and sure but Summer is part of Bran, it would be like using his own legs. We saw how in sync Robb was with Grey Wind. Robb lived through him like an extra limb with its own senses and instincts. Robb often never gave Grey Wind any explicit and pre-trained commands. Grey Wind seemed to know what Robb wanted and Robb could modulate the actions and their intensity in real-time.

There were embellished folktales of Robb riding into battle on a direwolf. But just imagine someone actually bound forth upon direwolf!! Awesome moment.

Chemistry with Tyrion and Ancestral Scent

Why the direwolves seemed to take a universal dislike to Tyrion has bothered me greatly since the beginning. Hurm's esoteric proposal is an interesting one, and perhaps provides the most sense and explanation thus far. However someone's mention of Jaime upthread got me thinking on the more prosaic answer of the scent in the blood.

Direwolves have a strong sense of pack. This is confirmed by the explicit thoughts of Summer towards his siblings, through Nymeria's forging of the Riverlands pack, how direwolves always hunted in pack in the Wolfswood of old. As Jon says Ghost (and the other warged direwolves) was not a friend but more than that - part of him. This sense of intimacy and "blood"-connection family may extend to the humans the starks. The direswolves may also apply this sense of family and pack to the outsider humans they encounter.

Each human (and many things) has their own distinctive scent which a direwolve is acutely aware of in lucid detail and can (I presume) even track it over long distances (direwolves FIND things...like the dragonglass cache and Catelyn). As an intensely biological thing I imagine that scent has a hereditary aspect to it. I propose that the direwolves can discern when two people are related by their scent.

If you put these two things together then we have a theory that may partly explain something (not everything). Perhaps the direwolves could immediately smell that tyrion was related to Jaime AND Cersei and so, through their tunneling sense of outsider pack, they connected Tyrion to the act of agression that his siblings invoked on Bran (almost killing him). Perhaps this made Tyrion the enemy being of the pack of the "enemy".

But you may say, why then didn't the direwolves attack Jeoffrey?

In our first chapter back in Winterfell after Bran's perilous fall we can catch a few oblique hints:

"The boy is a long time dying. I wish he would be quicker about it."

Tyrion glanced down and saw the Hound standing with young Joffrey as squires swarmed around them.

"At least he dies quietly," the prince replied. "It's the wolf that makes the noise. I could scarce sleep last night."

Clegane cast a long shadow across the hard-packed earth as his squire lowered

the black helm over his head. "I could silence the creature, if it please you," he said through his open visor.

His boy placed a longsword in his hand. He tested the weight of it, slicing at the cold morning air. Behind him, the yard rang to the clangor of steel on steel.

The notion seemed to delight the prince. "Send a dog to kill a dog!" he exclaimed. "Winterfell is so infested with wolves, the Starks would never miss one."

There are two lines I would draw your attention to (placed in bold above).

In the first it seems that the direwolf/direwolves are very agitated since the fall and are making a nuisance of themselves. If this is the case they are probably locked away or kept out of the way. This is something Maester Luwin had done later on when they were kept in the Godswood. Summer in particular is utterly utterly preoccupied with Bran and we are told in a later excerpt that Summer keeps returning to Bran's window (and Bran then gets better). So I propose that the direwolf focus is not very much on Bran and the direwolves are get a chance to directly interact with Joffrey.

the second word in bold is "send" and may offer oblique confirmation of the direwolves' separation from the guest party. Admittedly this common turn of phrase can be taken in many ways and very lightly. But if Joffrey is enjoying the prospect of SENDING the Hound to kill a direwolf then it means that they are somewhere else other than where Joffrey and the Hound are. they need to be found and sought out with proactive energy.

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Great post, Greenhand. I really had to sift through this dumpster fire and came out with little, so it's good to see someone contributing. First of all, mysticism is a very good descriptor for the dire wolves. Your ideas are much more practical and central to the dire wolves and I agree that they share a mind and that their senses are expansive. I also share the giddiness at the idea of them riding their wolves, as GRRM has tickled us with gossip of Robb riding Grey Wind on the battlefields.

Now I would propose we take an absurd turn with this idea, and have you think of Westeros as a network of organisms, with the central host being Bloodraven (think Cameron's Avatar). Bran's discovery of Bloodraven and the testing of his abilities show us that Bran can communicate with all aspects of Westeros' organic network (trees, ravens, etc), with the bonus being that it can be at different periods in history. I am of the mind that Bloodraven, or even Bran from the future of Westeros having taken Bloodraven's place as the central cog (as seems likely at some point), are using the Dire Wolves as an instrument to "guide" the Stark children to their path or destiny. In order to get with this, we have to acknowledge that it is no coincidence that there were 6 dire wolf pups and that they were found with their mother slain by a stag. Now this could be the first instance of Bloodraven's guiding, coupled with a warning. Once I bought into that, this quote from GoT changed things for me:

“The gods alone know,” Tyrion told her. “The maester only hopes.” He chewed some more read. “I would swear that wolf of his is keeping the boy alive. The creature is outside his window day and night, howling. Every time they chase it away, it returns. The maester said they closed the window once, to shut out the noise, and Bran seemed to weaken. When they opened it again, his heart beat stronger.”

Perhaps this is mere gossip and another GRRM tickle, but Im not so sure that is the case. I strongly believe that the Starks and their wolves are connected spiritually through the greater network, and thus share their lifeforce with all of Westeros to a very insignificant degree. However, they also share their lifeforce with their ancestry, as Greenhand alluded to. The network is stronger within the family, as evidenced by this:

Robb was in the middle of it, shouting commands with the best of them. He seemed to have grown of late, as if Bran’s fall and his mother’s collapse had somehow made him stronger.

Of course these arent definitive quotes, but they are thinkers. Nothing is definitive yet, and were all postulating anyway. Ive established that the wolves have a reason for everything they do, and that they are much less wolves than they are wargs. They selectively react to different people, because they are controlled by Bloodraven who has seen the future, and possibly wants to change it. The wolves could've killed Tyrion, but they didnt. They chewed a sleeve off. A warning. Perhaps we have yet to see the point at which Tyrion does harm to the Starks. Maybe his meddling throughout Westeros is making things difficult on Bloodraven. I believe Bloodraven has seen a future where Tyrion does harm to the Starks, and I think GRRM certainly has the balls to make that possible. This is a case where Bloodraven knows he cannot kill Tyrion there, it would affect too much, but he can send him a warning and get Tyrion away from the Stark children. Perhaps Bloodraven does not want Tyrion building a saddle for Bran, because it may deter him from reaching beyond the Wall and filling his head with delusions of knighthood. I dont necessarily buy into these theories, but its fun to get them on paper and see how people react to them. But the fact that Bran is so powerful now opens up immense possibilities and we are getting to a point where destinies will be shaped and certain stories told throughout ASOIAF will become reality. Jon Snow cant be AA, a head of the dragon, King of the Seven Kingdoms, and whatever else GRRM has hinted at, but he can be one of them. Bloodraven is shaping that as well, through Ghost. Ghost is guiding Jon, and soon Jon will become Ghost, and we will get a POV chapter and these concepts will be brought forth. Suck tangents.

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aGoT BRAN'S chapter. It only shows he is the strongest warg and the only greenseer. The other wargs we see base their hate from Jon having a DireWolf. Something they want to control.

From this view though Bran shows he is stronger than them by calling of the attack because he see's the human good from Tyrion, not just Jon wished it.

Later it goes into detail with Bran's struggle with Summer. Him not wanting to stop the hunt and what not.

Bran is the SOLE warg we are givin privy to. He is the most likely key to the story, as most have noted.

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