Lightning Lord Posted May 31, 2010 Share Posted May 31, 2010 Sure they can do something about it. Change their political platform, cease all hostile activities, cease contact with Iran, stop arming immediately, return Gaza to Democracy, etc. They do all that (and, yes, and give us back our kidnapped soldier) I am sure the blockade will be lifted.I don't think making the populace live like animals is going to make them more likely to listen to your ideas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Nobody Posted May 31, 2010 Share Posted May 31, 2010 I don't really see how this describes Hamas. Is this supposed to be related to territorial disputes (Hamas not willing to acknowledge Israel's right to 1 cm2 of land in the Middle East or its right to exist)?The guy living upstairs is supposed to represent Israel, the guy in the basement is supposed to represent the Palestinians, not just Hamas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted May 31, 2010 Author Share Posted May 31, 2010 1) You are having difficulty keeping track of the conversation? I mentioned boarding ships with munitions on them, you said like waht, I gave example. I was not comparing anything.No, you are the one having the difficulty here.-I said "so it's ok to just board someones ship" since you claimed this wasn't an act of violence.-You countered with "We've done it before and you were ok with it" and then posted that incident above.-To which I pointed out that said incident occured after an extensive investigation that found what seems from reading the Wiki to be some pretty solid evidence that the ship raided was carrying arms.Which didn't occur here afaik. So, again, how is the boarding of the flotilla justifiable?2) Like I said, they should it up with their government.Their government isn't the one keeping them from building shit though. Their government barely qualifies as one considering Israel is the one actually in control of all the important shit to do with Gaza.3) Asked and answered by yourself.So it WAS about getting shit to the people in Gaza then (which is what I said). So you take your earlier statement back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted May 31, 2010 Author Share Posted May 31, 2010 Sure they can do something about it. Change their political platform, cease all hostile activities, cease contact with Iran, stop arming immediately, return Gaza to Democracy, etc. They do all that (and, yes, and give us back our kidnapped soldier) I am sure the blockade will be lifted.Moving in that direction has never worked in the past, why would it work now?But really, it's all just a distraction from the fact the incident this thread is actually about.The one you have apparently already decided Israel is 100% in the right on, despite the minimal information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harrol Posted May 31, 2010 Share Posted May 31, 2010 Moving in that direction has never worked in the past, why would it work now?Did it not eventually work on the PLO? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted May 31, 2010 Author Share Posted May 31, 2010 Did it not eventually work on the PLO?Huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord O' Bones Posted May 31, 2010 Share Posted May 31, 2010 Yeah nations do sieze and board in international waters. Nato and the US do so to suspected pirates and the US does it to N.K. ships. When I was in the Navy I had a trainer that used to board N.K. ships in international waters.That's pretty much all we did when I was in the Gulf. I don't offhand know how the legality of those actions compare with the situation here, but we sure as fuck didn't wait to be in Iraqi waters to board a ship.This is getting off-topic. When did this happen? I haven't found an instance of the US forcibly boarding a North Korean ship. There was a lot made of the US tracking ships last year, but boarding seems more scarce.There was a lot that went down in Korean waters that didn't get widely reported. At least between '95 and '99. And harrol, if you were really in the Navy, why in hell are you in Gurnee Illinois now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harrol Posted May 31, 2010 Share Posted May 31, 2010 Huh?Israel had strict blockade of Palestinian areas during the 80's and 90's. I believe that pushed Yasser Arafat into certain reforms and forced him to tone down his rhetoric. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harrol Posted May 31, 2010 Share Posted May 31, 2010 That's pretty much all we did when I was in the Gulf. I don't offhand know how the legality of those actions compare with the situation here, but we sure as fuck didn't wait to be in Iraqi waters to board a ship.There was a lot that went down in Korean waters that didn't get widely reported. At least between '95 and '99. And harrol, if you were really in the Navy, why in hell are you in Gurnee Illinois now?Off topic I worked for Abbott Labs. Now I live in Arkansas. Sorry for being off topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted May 31, 2010 Author Share Posted May 31, 2010 Israel had strict blockade of Palestinian areas during the 80's and 90's. I believe that pushed Yasser Arafat into certain reforms and forced him to tone down his rhetoric.A stricker blockade then now?Also, Hamas has toned down it's rhetoric and worked to keep rocket attacks down (at least, during some of the cease-fires. They actually got flak from Palestinian extremists for doing so)And in the end, what did Arafat get for his trouble from Israel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harrol Posted May 31, 2010 Share Posted May 31, 2010 Off topic I worked for Abbott Labs. Now I live in Arkansas. Sorry for being off topic. I was active 95 to 2001 and stationed on the USS Kitty Hawk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harrol Posted May 31, 2010 Share Posted May 31, 2010 A stricker blockade then now?Also, Hamas has toned down it's rhetoric and worked to keep rocket attacks down (at least, during some of the cease-fires. They actually got flak from Palestinian extremists for doing so)And in the end, what did Arafat get for his trouble from Israel?Well he got international pressure put on Israel and the creation of a quasi-Palestinian state. Certainly not perfect but a step in the right direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted May 31, 2010 Author Share Posted May 31, 2010 Well he got international pressure put on Israel and the creation of a quasi-Palestinian state. Certainly not perfect but a step in the right direction.A quasi-palestinian state that doesn't control it's boarders, air-space, water, trade or ... anything really. And is under a blockade.Hell of a win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samalander Posted May 31, 2010 Share Posted May 31, 2010 Where?There you go:http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART2/112/781.htmlIt's in Hebrew, thoughJust now from the news: Fire was opened on our troops from men on one of the ships. Two guns were found on the attackers after the incident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harrol Posted May 31, 2010 Share Posted May 31, 2010 A quasi-palestinian state that doesn't control it's boarders, air-space, water, trade or ... anything really. And is under a blockade.Hell of a win.This situation is very delicate and all moves should be carefully done. Israel has the right to peace and safety and the Palestinians have the right to the same and I hope both can prosper. Let me interject one outside point. Remove every Jew from Palestine and there would still be no Palestinian State. Both Egypt and Syria claim that land as theirs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samalander Posted May 31, 2010 Share Posted May 31, 2010 1) So, again, how is the boarding of the flotilla justifiable?2) Their government isn't the one keeping them from building shit though. Their government barely qualifies as one considering Israel is the one actually in control of all the important shit to do with Gaza.3) So it WAS about getting shit to the people in Gaza then (which is what I said). So you take your earlier statement back.1) I went over this. Not gonna repeat myself. 2) I don't even know what more to say. We are NOT going to supply our enemy with concrete to build bunkers. They want it? Stop being our enemies (and everything that entails).3)Are you doing that obtuse trick you do sometimes? This isn't our fisrt tango, you know. I was talking about the PR part. This was meant to drag us into a PR nightmare (and yes, success :thumbsup: The fact they had to sacrifice some people for it, well, what do they care?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted May 31, 2010 Author Share Posted May 31, 2010 1) I went over this. Not gonna repeat myself. No you didn't. Just say it (or say it again if you insist). Saying "I'm not gonna repeat myself" is a waste of time that's better spent actually saying something.2) I don't even know what more to say. We are NOT going to supply our enemy with concrete to build bunkers. They want it? Stop being our enemies (and everything that entails).Ahh, so all the Palestinian people are your enemies and thus deserve no shelter. Charming fella you are.3)Are you doing that obtuse trick you do sometimes? This isn't our fisrt tango, you know. I was talking about the PR part. This was meant to drag us into a PR nightmare (and yes, success :thumbsup: The fact they had to sacrifice some people for it, well, what do they care?)What do you think the point of the PR stunt IS?The whole point is to stage a PR stunt to end the blockade so they can get supplies to the people in Gaza. The PR stunt is a means to an end. Stuff like this works, that's why people do it. You really think they wanted to get shot and killed? You think they don't care if some of the people with them got killed? WTF is wrong with you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted May 31, 2010 Author Share Posted May 31, 2010 Also, it's now confirmed at least 10 shot dead by the IDF and 2 IDF soldiers wounded: http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/at-least-10-activists-killed-in-israel-navy-clashes-onboard-gaza-aid-flotilla-1.293089Israel Navy troops opened fire on pro-Palestinian activists aboard a six-ship aid flotilla sailing for the Gaza Stripearly Monday, killing at least 10 and wounding several others after the convoy ignored orders to turn back.The Israeli military said 10 activists were killed after its troops came under fire while intercepting the convoy. Unofficial reports put the death toll at between 14 and 20. The military said in a statement: "Navy fighters took control of six ships that tried to violate the naval blockade (of the Gaza Strip) ... During the takeover, the soldiers encountered serious physical violence by the protesters, who attacked them with live fire."The IDF earlier confirmed that two navy commandos had been wounded in fight, which apparently broke out after activists tried to sieze their weapons.According to the IDF, commandos who stormed the Turkish ferry Mavi Marmara, the largest vessel in the convoy, encountered violent resistance from activists armed with sticks and knives.Activists attacked a commando with iron bars as he descended onto the ship from a helicopter, the army said. The IDF said its rules of engagement allowed troops to open fire in what it called a "life-threatening situation". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samalander Posted May 31, 2010 Share Posted May 31, 2010 a) Ahh, so all the Palestinian people are your enemies and thus deserve no shelter. Charming fella you are.b)You really think they wanted to get shot and killed? You think they don't care if some of the people with them got killed? WTF is wrong with you?a) Gaza is an autonomous entity. Hamas are not rogue criminals but the ruling power. So, yes, the palestinian people of Gaza are the enemy, just like Israel is the enemy of Gaza for as long as Hamas holds sway.B) If this is a peaceful humaniterian aid thing why are there people with guns on board? Ever heard of Passive Resistance? 4 of the 5 ships went quietly. So it is possibly. And yes, they don't care if some of the people with them get killed. And the appropriate question in this situation is WTF is wrong with them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harrol Posted May 31, 2010 Share Posted May 31, 2010 Also, it's now confirmed at least 10 shot dead by the IDF and 2 IDF soldiers wounded: http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/at-least-10-activists-killed-in-israel-navy-clashes-onboard-gaza-aid-flotilla-1.293089Well this will be a mess in the international arena. Something must change somewhere so that real peace can be achieved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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