Breaking Bad Seasons Three and Four

[palin99999]

Another interview with Vince

[Samalander]

I think it was just the angle that the scene was shot in. I don't buy that Jesse shifted it at the last second and didn't kill Gale simply because it wouldn't lead to a very compelling season 4.

Another interview with Vince

Well, in this interview they are backtacking a bit from "Gale is definately dead". If I were a writer on the show, I'd have Jesse shoot him in the arm, and take him and one of his rugs. This way: No Rug+Blood+No Body = Everyone assumes he killed him and ditched the body somewhere.

[Rockroi]

I don't think you understand what poor impulse control is. Walt is certainly intelligent, and capable of great ruthlessness when necessary, but he also has a tendency to lash out irrationally or unwisely when angry, like so...

That didn't sound condescending at all.

Proof #1: He brasses off an New Mexico state trooper over essentially nothing and if not for Hank's timely intercession would have landed in jail over it.

Meh... this was on the very cusp of his impending divorce; he lashed out like an idiot. I guess that shows poor impulse control in this area. When compared to the other things I posted above, I think its a minor deviation from his norm.

Proof #2: He becomes jealously violent at Ted Beneke's office and succeeds only in toppling a potted plant and getting thrown out by security.

Yeah. I bet many guys who have their wives openly bone another guy are completely cool with it. They would, possibly, write an angry letter. Maybe seek counseling. I think anything short of "blew his head off and then pee'd in his skull" would be fine.

In both #1 and #2 we find a man seeing his life imploding. If there are some "impulse control" issues, they are understandable. And in fact, this is the way the show treats it: Walt has to get his shit together if he wants to survive. And what happens? Oh, that's right he does. (And in defense of another character with what you would define as "poor impulse control", so does Skylar).

Proof #3: He almost gets into a fist fight with Hank over his insistence upon letting his teenage son drink whiskey until he gets ill enough to vomit in the swimming pool.

You know you are reaching here, right? This occurred, what in season one? I mean, he had JUST been diagnosed with cancer, right? I forget; its that important.

These things for an average person would just be signs of assholery; from a guy who's conducting a deeply dangerous criminal conspiracy they're signs of lunacy, because the last thing Walter needs is any official attention to his activities.

Theoretically, they are all signs of a man who lashed out on three occasions; two of which involved the disintegration of his own marriage. By that same logic, Sky displayed horrendous impulse control- calling the cops on a man who had done nothing wrong AND THEN sleeping with Ted, a man she obviously does not care for JUST to get back at Walt. Wouldn't you agree that Skylar has horrible impulse control?

We know that Gus is aware that Walt did #2 (Mike is outside of Sky's work and picks Walt up, IIRC right after the plant scene- a terrible scene, mind you). And Gus STILL wants Walt for his enterprise. So, even in a light most favorable to your argument, Gus SAW "poor impulse control" and thought "Yeah, I don't give a shit." In fact, Gus is prepared to TALK to Walt about his family after that scene. And in fact, by the time the "Jesse flips" scene occurs, Gus is completely impressed with Walt and says so to Jesse.

We all have had a desire to strike out of anger, but most of us restrain those impulses because, well, they should be restrained. Walter, who lacks impulse control, gives these urges free rein.

And in there lies the rub.

Breaking Bad is not about a man with poor impulse control who gets involved in the drug world. Its about a man with absolutely incredible impulse control who controls and subdues every, single urge and rage and lives his life in quiet and suffocating desperation. He's brilliant and is smarter than 99% of the people he encounters day to day. He gets cancer and THEN gets involved in the drug world wherein he learns that ...

... society's norms and rules do not apply to him any longer: the money, the lifestyle, the fact that some of his behavior is excused because he is so sick, all set him and what he does comfortably outside what other people do and think. The rules of life no longer apply to him. And they do not apply to others he interacts with: Jesse kicks his own parents out of his home; Saul Goodman launders everyone's money; Gus has trucks and trucks filled with drugs; Mike kills. The rules of society do not apply to these people (provided they stay out of society's way and go unnoticed). They all have adequate impulse control EXCEPT that our standard of impulse control is completely inapplicable to their world (to a degree).

Therefore, Walt displays that lack of control in that transition between the two worlds (each and every example you illustrated- and they are scant, to be generous - occurred at the very beginning of the season when Walt was getting divorced and his wife was boning a guy OR in prior seasons). Is it a cause for concern?

Not for Gus. I think Gus should be and, in fact, is MORE concerned because Walt is so fucking smart- much smarter than the VAST majority of the people Gus deals with. Walt also displays an amazingly fast learning curve: he completely understands and appreciates Gus and Gus' business venture and the complexity of what is occurring. I do not think Gus fears that Walt has poor "impulse control"; I think Gus is afraid that Walt is going to outsmart him, damage his enterprise, and then DIS-the fuck -APPEAR.

Gus does not worry that Walt is going to show up and start shooting the place up or go to the cops (as Jesse naively stated); Gus is not worried about having a "loose cannon" on his hands.

No.

Gus is worried that he's no longer the smartest guy in the room.

[Tb0ne]

On Walt's 'execution' was it an execution or an execution unless he gave up Jesse?

-Mike believed that it was possible but maybe not probable that when faced with the threat of death Walt would crack like so many people he had seen before. Unless I misread his expression I would say that was pretty much confirmed although I guess it could have been a 'I thought you were better than this' expression.

-Gus believed that Walt would not give up Jesse and met with Gale to find out whether he was ready to take over. If however Walt did crack Gus might have allowed him to live because he has no idea how much Skylar knows at this point and Fring at least seems like he would prefer not to kill woman or children, especially those who have family members in the DEA.

[Relic]

On Walt's 'execution' was it an execution or an execution unless he gave up Jesse?

-Mike believed that it was possible but maybe not probable that when faced with the threat of death Walt would crack like so many people he had seen before.

He was a dead man. His only play at that moment was exactly what he did.

[Rockroi]

On Walt's 'execution' was it an execution or an execution unless he gave up Jesse?

I don't think so at all. Mike wants Walt to go into the hole so he can kill him. Once Walt begins to "crack" (which we learned was not cracking at all), he begs Mike to "don't do this" and that Mike does not "have to do this" (translation of "it" and "this": kill Walt). Mike stops Walt and says (paraphrasing) "I have to do this, I am sorry but this is going to happen." This seems to imply that Mike is set on his course of action and needs Walt to see that; there is no getting out of this. Jesse is not an escape hatch. If Jesse WERE an escape hatch, one would imagine that Mike would have said as much.

Walt brings up Pinkman all on his own, and was in no way spurred to that idea by Mike. Its not like Mike said to Walt, "Walter, you know what Gus wants; give us Pinkman and you get to see your wife again." Had that been the plan, Mike SHOULD have articulated that to Walt. Also, once Walt offers to give up Pinkman, Mike seems shocked by this; he is stunned. He balances in his head (I assume) the pros and cons of using Walt to get to Jesse- something he knows Gus is smarting to finish. Its only on Walt's suggestion that Mike explores.

Finally, its obvious that once Walt interacts with Pinkman, Mike has no "Plan B" or "What to do if Walt DOES offer up Pinkman." Mike was caught completely off guard by Walter. And for good reason. Walt is smarter than Mike.

[TrackerNeil]

You know you are reaching here, right? This occurred, what in season one? I mean, he had JUST been diagnosed with cancer, right? I forget; its that important.

Actually, Rockroi, Walter's little incident with Hank occurred at a party Skylar threw to thank their friends for their support during Walter's illness. And, if I recall correctly, that party was also to celebrate the news of Walter's recovery. Therefore, you can't use Walter's illness as a justification for that little stunt, methinks. In fact, one might plausibly argue that Walter's anger was caused by that same recovery, as it had removed his justification for pursuing this dirty business in the first place. (Remember him punching the mirror? Another sign.)

Yeah. I bet many guys who have their wives openly bone another guy are completely cool with it. They would, possibly, write an angry letter. Maybe seek counseling. I think anything short of "blew his head off and then pee'd in his skull" would be fine.

Ah. So a man who learns his wife has had extramarital sex and responds with anything short of murder is keeping himself under control. Got it.

... society's norms and rules do not apply to him any longer: the money, the lifestyle, the fact that some of his behavior is excused because he is so sick, all set him and what he does comfortably outside what other people do and think. The rules of life no longer apply to him. And they do not apply to others he interacts with: Jesse kicks his own parents out of his home; Saul Goodman launders everyone's money; Gus has trucks and trucks filled with drugs; Mike kills. The rules of society do not apply to these people (provided they stay out of society's way and go unnoticed). They all have adequate impulse control EXCEPT that our standard of impulse control is completely inapplicable to their world (to a degree).

So now Walter is a some kind of hero? You're entitled to your opinion, but it's not one that Vince Gilligan shares. Obviously, it's up to the audience to make the moral judgments, but...well, if GRRM told me that Jaime Lannister was an arrogant, self-justifying honorless prick, I'd believe him.

[TrackerNeil]

Finally, its obvious that once Walt interacts with Pinkman, Mike has no "Plan B" or "What to do if Walt DOES offer up Pinkman." Mike was caught completely off guard by Walter. And for good reason. Walt is smarter than Mike.

Well, I think it's safer to say Walter outwitted Mike in that instance, but I'm not sure if Walter is smarter in general. He's certainly less sensible than Mike.

[Rockroi]

Remember him punching the mirror? Another sign.

I actually thought that was completely away from an impulse control issue. I think it showed that Walt was angry at himself and did nit want to look at himself. He punched a reflective surface (I do not think it was a mirror). I do not think this or the other issues you describe explain a man with poor impulse control generally; I think they describe a man who HAD difficulty in the transitions between regular, shitty life and the new life he has made for himself.

I think your examples are sparse because the evidence is sparse . Walt has shown great restraint under some pretty trying circumstances. He does not panic; not in the desert when the RV was doomed; not in "negotiating" with Jesse in the hospital; not with Skylar when she is calling the cops on him.

I mean, really; which is better evidence of Walt's impulse control: the fact that Walt yelled at a cop once; or that he was able to execute a plan with Mike pointing a gun to his head?

I actually think that you correctly diagnosed Walt on your first pass: he can be an "asshole." He yells at Jesse for certain things (for which, I must agree, Jesse deserved); he threw a pizza on a roof; he screamed at a cop. Jerk. But poor impulse control THAT WOULD LEAD Gus to not trust him? I don't think that is in the equation.

Ah. So a man who learns his wife has had extramarital sex and responds with anything short of murder is keeping himself under control. Got it.

I was exaggerating to make a point. Glad you can keep up with me. My point was in that ludicrous scene (I stated it was a terrible scene when the scene first aired: Sky should have gone to the cops right when that occurred. It was poorly written and poorly executed) showed how angry Walt was and that he got over it; he acted like a goon. But under the circumstances- his wife admitted to fucking Ted SOLELY to get back at Walt -its hardly noteworthy. He doesn't even know Ted exists anymore (and for all intents and purposes, Ted no longer exists).

But the more salient point is that GUS KNOWS THIS HAPPENED! And still makes the mental calculus that he does not care- in fact he advises Walt on how to handle the situation. And Walt does. I think your underlying premise- that Gus is worried about Walt due to his "poor impulse control" is erroneous. I think its far more likely that Gus is worried about Walt because Walt displays such incredible judgment and cunning in their dealings and is very smart and very determined. Killing the drug thugs was done to save Jesse (this is classic "damned-if-he-does-damned-if-he-doesn't; if Walt did nothing and allowed Jesse to get killed, he's evil; if he runs to his rescue, he has poor impulse control. Fascinating). I think Gus knows how important Jesse is to Walt and that Walt is willing to do a great, great deal to save Jesse.

THAT scared Gus; not any impulse control issues.

So now Walter is a some kind of hero? You're entitled to your opinion, but it's not one that Vince Gilligan shares.

I never said Walt was a hero. I think he has shown some heroic qualities (saving Jesse) and some awful ones (killing Gale). And if Vince Gilligan shares or does not share my opinion, that is not my concern. At all. He produces the art; I interpret it. If Gilligan needs interviews or pod-casts to explain why Walt is much worse than I interpret, that does his story no good. Its interesting, but its not critical.

Well, I think it's safer to say Walter outwitted Mike in that instance, but I'm not sure if Walter is smarter in general. He's certainly less sensible than Mike.

Oh that's just not true, and I suspect you know that. Walt is the smartest person on the show and displays that every episode. His issues deal with his adaptation into the new world and his inexperience. Its shocking how much he is able to pick up and execute. He completely outsmarted Gus and Mike and they both know that. I think Gus is in the running of being as smart as Walt, but Gus also knows that Walt's ability to "pick up things as he goes" is remarkable.

I think Gus is far more sensible than Walt, but that is due to being in the life longer. He HIMSELF says that when he first started he made many mistakes and wishes he had had a mentor of sorts. He basically wanted, at that moment, to be Walt's mentor. The connotation was that Gus knew the mistakes Walt was going to make and was advising him because he sees a great deal of potential in Walt. Which would be true. But Gus completely underestimated Walt's ability to raise the stakes and use his advantages. As time goes on, I think Walt can be as sensible as Gus.

[TrackerNeil]

My point was in that ludicrous scene (I stated it was a terrible scene when the scene first aired: Sky should have gone to the cops right when that occurred. It was poorly written and poorly executed) showed how angry Walt was and that he got over it; he acted like a goon. But under the circumstances- his wife admitted to fucking Ted SOLELY to get back at Walt -its hardly noteworthy. He doesn't even know Ted exists anymore (and for all intents and purposes, Ted no longer exists).

But the more salient point is that GUS KNOWS THIS HAPPENED! And still makes the mental calculus that he does not care- in fact he advises Walt on how to handle the situation. And Walt does. I think your underlying premise- that Gus is worried about Walt due to his "poor impulse control" is erroneous. I think its far more likely that Gus is worried about Walt because Walt displays such incredible judgment and cunning in their dealings and is very smart and very determined. Killing the drug thugs was done to save Jesse (this is classic "damned-if-he-does-damned-if-he-doesn't; if Walt did nothing and allowed Jesse to get killed, he's evil; if he runs to his rescue, he has poor impulse control. Fascinating). I think Gus knows how important Jesse is to Walt and that Walt is willing to do a great, great deal to save Jesse.

I never said Walt was a hero. I think he has shown some heroic qualities (saving Jesse) and some awful ones (killing Gale). And if Vince Gilligan shares or does not share my opinion, that is not my concern. At all. He produces the art; I interpret it. If Gilligan needs interviews or pod-casts to explain why Walt is much worse than I interpret, that does his story no good. Its interesting, but its not critical.

So...when Walter outwits Mike, it's proof that he is the most brilliant tactician on the show; when he very foolishly gets into a fracas with a state trooper over nothing, it's "a minor deviation from his norm" doesn't prove him in any way unreasonable. When he backs off Hank at the junkyard he's fast on his mental feet; when he nearly gets into a fist fight with Hank over making his teenage son sick with whiskey, it's a "scant" example of Walter's tendency to lash out. You'll accept that killing Gale was bad but going violently ballistic at Skylar's place of business was fine. So it seems that you accept from the series what fits into your existing view of Walter, and reject that which does not. That's up to you, of course, but it makes me wonder why you bother watching at all. I watch because my opinion of these characters has changed in response to watching the things the characters do. For example, I like Hank and Marie more and Walter and Skylar less. But you seem to have the characters all figured out, and nothing that happens is going to change that opinion. I don't get it.

[Samalander]

Look, guys, a person can be a genius and be emotionally unstable. It's not an either/or situation. Walt is a genius and he is emotionally unstable (due to his cancer, the weight of his actions on his conscience, the problems with his marriage).

As for outsmarting Mike in such a brilliant way, you have to realize, he had the whole car trip to plan this!

[Rockroi]

TN:

Where your entire argument fails is in your underlying thesis: that the reason Gus wanted to get rid of Walt when he did was because Walt has, generally, poor impulse control.

For starters, I think I have indicated that this is, at best, an incomplete diagnosis: Walt has displayed tremendous impulse control during some times (usually involving business, his life being in mortal danger, thinking under pressure) while you are articulating some points where you feel Walt displays poor impulse control in unsuccessfully trying to threaten Ted; punching a reflective surface; having an argument with Hank like.. what ... 2/3 years ago? (interesting that the examples you bring up all dealt with family).

But more devastating to your case is that Gus somehow acted out against Walt due to Walt's poor impulse control. First, I pointed out that even in a light most favorable to your argument (lets assume you are 100% correct) GUS KNEW THIS! Mike was at Sky's office to pick up Walt; he saw the fracas; Gus TALKED TO WALT ABOUT IT! He knows. And guess what? He doesn't care.

But even more problematic for you are the OTHER FACTORS that Gus was clearly considering at that moment. He knows that Walt can draw a line in the sand and fight for those he is loyal to (Jesse); he knows his value to Gus and acts upon it (he now gets roughly $15 Million a year for his services); he has proven that if he does not like a directive of Gus, he will ignore it (ie: defending Jesse). Poor impulse control?

Who does Gus want out? Lets see... how about somebody who does a lot of drugs or has a history of drug abuse, who goes off all half-cocked on crazy crusades, who is close- far far too close -to Gus' own business, who takes action without permission, who has ACTIVELY made plans to hurt Gus' business, who cannot control himself, etc. Who does that sound like to you?

Walt? Hardly.

Gus hates JESSE! He has hated Jesse since the moment he laid eyes on him (and for good reason). He has never stopped hating Jesse. Finally, Jesse goes too far and THAT'S IT! He has to die. Done. But Walt is now in it to because despite all reason, Walt is LOYAL to Jesse (again, I am at a loss to explain why nobody on this board applauds Walt for his endless loyalty to Jesse). Once Gus realizes that Walt will always back Jesse, FUCK THAT, Walt now has to die (this is combined with Walt's defiance of Gus- but note NEITHER action shows poor impulse control). Then you combine that with Gus' knowledge that Walt is just too crafty, too dangerous, too skillful to let stick around... send Mike in.

Just didn't work out that way. Walt outsmarted them all... again.

As for outsmarting Mike in such a brilliant way, you have to realize, he had the whole car trip to plan this!

Meh... so did Adrianna and fat lotta good that did her. ;)

[TrackerNeil]

TN:

Where your entire argument fails is in your underlying thesis: that the reason Gus wanted to get rid of Walt when he did was because Walt has, generally, poor impulse control.

For starters, I think I have indicated that this is, at best, an incomplete diagnosis: Walt has displayed tremendous impulse control during some times (usually involving business, his life being in mortal danger, thinking under pressure) while you are articulating some points where you feel Walt displays poor impulse control in unsuccessfully trying to threaten Ted; punching a reflective surface; having an argument with Hank like.. what ... 2/3 years ago? (interesting that the examples you bring up all dealt with family).

But more devastating to your case is that Gus somehow acted out against Walt due to Walt's poor impulse control. First, I pointed out that even in a light most favorable to your argument (lets assume you are 100% correct) GUS KNEW THIS! Mike was at Sky's office to pick up Walt; he saw the fracas; Gus TALKED TO WALT ABOUT IT! He knows. And guess what? He doesn't care.

But even more problematic for you are the OTHER FACTORS that Gus was clearly considering at that moment. He knows that Walt can draw a line in the sand and fight for those he is loyal to (Jesse); he knows his value to Gus and acts upon it (he now gets roughly $15 Million a year for his services); he has proven that if he does not like a directive of Gus, he will ignore it (ie: defending Jesse). Poor impulse control?

Who does Gus want out? Lets see... how about somebody who does a lot of drugs or has a history of drug abuse, who goes off all half-cocked on crazy crusades, who is close- far far too close -to Gus' own business, who takes action without permission, who has ACTIVELY made plans to hurt Gus' business, who cannot control himself, etc. Who does that sound like to you?

Walt? Hardly.

Gus hates JESSE! He has hated Jesse since the moment he laid eyes on him (and for good reason). He has never stopped hating Jesse. Finally, Jesse goes too far and THAT'S IT! He has to die. Done. But Walt is now in it to because despite all reason, Walt is LOYAL to Jesse (again, I am at a loss to explain why nobody on this board applauds Walt for his endless loyalty to Jesse). Once Gus realizes that Walt will always back Jesse, FUCK THAT, Walt now has to die (this is combined with Walt's defiance of Gus- but note NEITHER action shows poor impulse control). Then you combine that with Gus' knowledge that Walt is just too crafty, too dangerous, too skillful to let stick around... send Mike in.

Just didn't work out that way. Walt outsmarted them all... again.

Ummm...that Arizona state trooper wasn't family, nor did he have anything to do with family.

It's pretty clear to me that despite your protests you still aren't getting what I mean by poor impulse control (PIC). People with PIC can be smart, crafty, brave, dangerous, loving, and perform well under pressure, but they will also have a difficult time restraining their urges. Walt is one of those people. When he gets angry or cornered he lashes out. Sometimes that works against him, such as the incident with the state trooper or Hank or Ted Beneke. Sometimes that works for him, as with the standoff at the lab with Mike. And let me say that Vince Gilligan and staff have done such a great job with the character that when Walt offered to give up Jesse I knew instantly that he was only trying to gain space to maneuver. Walt doesn't knuckle under to pressure; he strikes back, with varying levels of efficacy.

As to Gus, just because he knows Walter is unpredictable doesn't mean he won't make use of Walter where he can. And he does, until Walter finally murders two of Gus' people for no good cause. In fact, Gus directly asks Walter why he would do something so irrational, and the question is justified. Gus works with a lot of people, such as scumbags who lure children into murder and drug-dealing only to murder those selfsame children when they are no longer of use. So the argument that Gus' willingness to employ Walter means Walter has no impulse control problems IMO fails.

Now, let me address your complaint about Walter's heretofore unrecognized loyalty to Jessie. Yes, Walter does seem to feel a sense of loyalty towards Jesse, but it should be noted that such loyalty does not prevent Walt from sending Jesse into dangerous situations (i.e Tuco), or keep him from allowing Jesse's girlfriend to choke to death. However, I think there is a loyalty there that can't be denied, and on reflection Walt treats Jesse like a member of his family. He doesn't always tell his family the truth, he isn't always respectful of them, sometimes puts them in danger**, but in the end he will come through for them in his own way. Does that satisfy you?

**I know you think that the various times drug dealers and thugs have come to Walt's home bent on violence do not qualify as putting Skylar and Walt Jr. in danger, but there we must simply agree to disagree.

[Relic]

I actually thought that was completely away from an impulse control issue. I think it showed that Walt was angry at himself and did nit want to look at himself. He punched a reflective surface (I do not think it was a mirror). I do not think this or the other issues you describe explain a man with poor impulse control generally; I think they describe a man who HAD difficulty in the transitions between regular, shitty life and the new life he has made for himself.

It was a hand towel dispenser and i think he flew into a rage because he was ready and even looking forward to death at that point. He had just gotten good news on the cancer front and had no idea how to deal with it. The remission took away his main excuse for unleashing his Hiesenberg persona.

[Rockroi]

Ummm...that Arizona state trooper wasn't family, nor did he have anything to do with family.

The event took place immediately after Walt had been kicked out of the house by his wife. The context was unmistakable.

It's pretty clear to me that despite your protests you still aren't getting what I mean by poor impulse control (PIC).

In order to help me understand, I looked up “Poor Impulse Control” on the American Psychiatric Association web page. Here is their definition:

An Impulse Control Disorder can be loosely defined as the failure to resist an impulsive act or behavior that may be harmful to self or others. For purposes of this definition, an impulsive behavior or act is considered to be one that is not premeditated or not considered in advance and one over which the individual has little or no control.(Emphasis Added)

I just do not see this at all with Walt. I think you are grasping. Sure, maybe in the episode with the cop and the episode with the pizza – neither act did Walt premeditate or plan ahead with- and he acted like an asshole. This is true with the potted plant BUT NOT with confronting Ted in general- he planned that out and thought ahead. But that happens; that does not mean the person suffers from poor impulse control. He just lashed out. But overall, those are scant examples, and over the history of this man’s life, he seems almost TOO controlling of his emotions and does not act out hardly ever at all.

Your most damning statement is when you claim (and it’s a preposterous claim) that Walt exhibited PIC when he asked Jesse to kill Gale when Mike had a gun to his head. I think your example is completely at odds with what actually took place: a calm, cool and collected Walt enacted on a course of conduct IN SPITE of tremendous stress and the IMPULSE to run away and hide, beg etc. In fact, all of Walt’s actions show a highly calculating mind that knew exactly what to do and who effectuated all he needed to do to get EXACTLY what he had hoped for (survival, continued employment). Walt CLEARLY planned it all ahead. Clearly, this cannot be an impulse control problem. In fact, it shows quite the opposite.

As to Gus, just because he knows Walter is unpredictable doesn't mean he won't make use of Walter where he can. And he does, until Walter finally murders two of Gus' people for no good cause.

Walt had damn "good cause” to kill two of Gus’ men- the same men who were going to kill Jesse after they obviously killed a boy. Walt was making sure Jesse was not killed; he saved that man’s life and it was a really, really decent act that was to Walt’s own detriment. That was AGAIN not an Impulse Control Issue; it was a pre-meditated act that was reasonably calculated to get Walt what he wanted.

Is Walt Selfish? OMG YES!!!! He is one of the most selfish characters in the history of Television and its great to finally see it.

In fact, Gus directly asks Walter why he would do something so irrational, and the question is justified. Gus works with a lot of people, such as scumbags who lure children into murder and drug-dealing only to murder those selfsame children when they are no longer of use. So the argument that Gus' willingness to employ Walter means Walter has no impulse control problems IMO fails.

First, Gus THINKS its irrational, but that does not make it irrational. Its actually quite rational when you consider Walt's loyalty to Jesse. This is a blind spot for Gus.

Second, the conversation at the meeting place also tends to disprove your theory that Gus expects Walt to be irrational. In fact, Gus is SOOOOO taken aback by Walt's behavior that he attributes it to being cancer related- asking him if he was under the influence of his disease. If Gus really though Walt was so inclined to "irrational behavior" why the heck does he seem so surprised?

Third, I disagree that Gus would put the same care in choosing his drug assholes as he would his cooker. Not logical, and Gus makes that clear. While Gus is careful in all he does, he is more accepting for certain people- obviously the two wastes of space that Walt slays –than others dependent on their position in his organization. The cooker? Holy hell, that guy has to be really, really solid! And Gus AGAIN makes the reasonable calculation that Walt is going to be fine irrespective of any issues with Impulse Control (which, as I state, Walt probably does not have).

And he is largely right; its not “impulse control” that gets Walt in with Gus; its his loyalty to Jesse and his ability to manipulate. Gus is now afraid that Walt is too much, too important and too dangerous; he has too much power and has to be dealt with. But that has NOTHING to do with him mouthing off to a cop once.

Now, let me address your complaint about Walter's heretofore unrecognized loyalty to Jessie. Yes, Walter does seem to feel a sense of loyalty towards Jesse, but it should be noted that such loyalty does not prevent Walt from sending Jesse into dangerous situations (i.e Tuco), or keep him from allowing Jesse's girlfriend to choke to death.

I never said Walt was loyal to some heroine freak who was getting in the way. And his loyalty to Jesse has some boundaries. Walt calculated that life would be better for them if this girl was allowed to choke on her own vomit in peace. And guess what? FUCK! He was right!

(Personally, I do not subscribe to this philosophy because human beings cannot predict the future; we are guessing when we try to take actions on what the future could bring. Thus, ultimately I do not agree with WHY Walt did what he did there; but I really think it was what was best for Walt at that moment).

However, I think there is a loyalty there that can't be denied, and on reflection Walt treats Jesse like a member of his family. He doesn't always tell his family the truth, he isn't always respectful of them, sometimes puts them in danger, but in the end he will come through for them in his own way. Does that satisfy you?

He has always been there for his family and treating Jesse as a member of his family, and this is a good way of looking at it. I am happy that Walt's positive qualities are finally being appreciated and that not everything the guy does is an indication that he is evil. He's not. He's just looking out for himself and his family in a world that clearly is not looking out for him or them. In that area, I am pretty satisfied.

(Edited to tone down some of the invectives that I think are getting out of hand).

[TrackerNeil]

He has always been there for his family and treating Jesse as a member of his family, and this is a good way of looking at it. I am happy that Walt's positive qualities are finally being appreciated and that not everything the guy does is an indication that he is evil. He's not. He's just looking out for himself and his family in a world that clearly is not looking out for him or them. In that area, I am pretty satisfied.

I think where you and I disagree, and where you are at odds with Vince Gilligan himself*, is that Walter has done all of this because of his family. I agree that's how it started, but that reason quickly fell away when Walt was offered a cushy job at Gray Matters with full medical benefits that would not have excluded coverage of his cancer treatments. That option was safer for Walt and for his family, but Walt turns it down out of pride. (He demonstrates the same pride when Saul Goodman suggests using Walt Jr's Web site to launder the money from Walter's drug trade; he wants to get credit for that money himself.) A man who exposes himself and his family** to violence when he has another viable option isn't in my "looking out for himself and his family."

*Vince Gilligan has said: ""Walt is the cancer at the center of the show," Gilligan says, highlighting the irony that Walt began making meth to earn money for his family following a terminal cancer diagnosis. "He is a malignant entity on his family and loved ones; [he] harms them and potentially ruins their lives. Walt's bad life choices come back to bear very bitter fruit, not just for him and his own life, but for his friends, family and loved ones. No one escapes the show unscathed."

**Again, even though both Tuco and the cousins have gone to Walter's home intent on violence, you think Walter's family has never been in danger, so I guess this argument really can't continue.

On another topic, apparently Vince Gilligan himself has confirmed that the apparent gun shift some noted in the finale means nothing; Gale is dead. Seriously.

[Blaine]

For what it's worth, I would have pegged Jesse as obviously having Poor Impulse Control (and in general, poor decision making) and Walt as more of someone who should know better, but has rationalized himself to doing terrible actions anyway.

And clearly, Gus sees Jesse as Walt's one big flaw. He's an addict and he's a street-level thinker. From Gus' perspective, it was only a matter of time until he ruins Walt's life (or messes up Gus's business). From their first meeting on, Gus has seemed to try to show Walt that Jesse was a liability he can't afford to have in this business.

However, Walt is tied to Jesse emotionally - I think he thinks of Jesse as both a son-figure and the only one he can trust after what they've been through. Also, Walt has shown a serious problem with being pushed around by authority figures.

Even people who've tried to help (his rich friends/ex-business partners, principals, cops, sometimes Hank) Walt doesn't like to be told what he can't do. It's the surest way to provoke him. And now that he's become a killer and a druglord, and crossed so many lines, there's little holding him back at this point.

[TrackerNeil]

Even people who've tried to help (his rich friends/ex-business partners, principals, cops, sometimes Hank) Walt doesn't like to be told what he can't do. It's the surest way to provoke him. And now that he's become a killer and a druglord, and crossed so many lines, there's little holding him back at this point.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if this is why Walter found himself teaching high school instead of working in some laboratory. I've long suspected that the behavior (anger management problems, a tendency to over-intellectualize) we see from Walter was not originated but freed by his cancer.

[Rockroi]

I wouldn't be at all surprised if this is why Walter found himself teaching high school instead of working in some laboratory. I've long suspected that the behavior (anger management problems, a tendency to over-intellectualize) we see from Walter was not originated but freed by his cancer.

I agree with this statement (and said as much in prior posts), and extend it to many more aspects of Walt's personality.

Walt's cancer diagnosis was, for him, empowering. He could compartmentalize his responsibilities and make due with his feelings of insecurity and inadequacy and channel all that into his abilities as a chemist to get rich. His cancer diagnosis empowered him to feel like the rules of life did not apply to him; he had an out- cancer. Thus, he was free to to be FREE. He could act however he wanted and do whatever he wanted. And he wanted to make a lot of money.

But the money actually gave Walt EVEN MORE freedom- the ability to do what he wanted, the ability to live where he wanted etc. Yes, he still has responsibilities, but its safe to say- he is handling them about as well as can be expected. And when a family member is in trouble, he GLADLY uses his money to pay for what that person needs.

Walt, clearly, believes that the social norms that people live under do not apply to him. And to some degree he is correct. He does not go to a 9-5 job making peanuts; he does not need to endure the BS most people have to. But much like Tony Soprano, he is not completely clear from life's responsibilities: Walt is a father, a husband and an incredible drug cooker- he needs to find a balance.

I think that we are ultimately seeing Walt as a man who does not live by the rules of society; his cancer shed him of the need to act accordingly. And the money he is getting from his drugs are giving him another layer of freedom and responsibility.

[TrackerNeil]

I agree with this statement (and said as much in prior posts), and extend it to many more aspects of Walt's personality.

Walt's cancer diagnosis was, for him, empowering. He could compartmentalize his responsibilities and make due with his feelings of insecurity and inadequacy and channel all that into his abilities as a chemist to get rich. His cancer diagnosis empowered him to feel like the rules of life did not apply to him; he had an out- cancer. Thus, he was free to to be FREE. He could act however he wanted and do whatever he wanted. And he wanted to make a lot of money.

But the money actually gave Walt EVEN MORE freedom- the ability to do what he wanted, the ability to live where he wanted etc. Yes, he still has responsibilities, but its safe to say- he is handling them about as well as can be expected. And when a family member is in trouble, he GLADLY uses his money to pay for what that person needs.

Walt, clearly, believes that the social norms that people live under do not apply to him. And to some degree he is correct. He does not go to a 9-5 job making peanuts; he does not need to endure the BS most people have to. But much like Tony Soprano, he is not completely clear from life's responsibilities: Walt is a father, a husband and an incredible drug cooker- he needs to find a balance.

I think that we are ultimately seeing Walt as a man who does not live by the rules of society; his cancer shed him of the need to act accordingly. And the money he is getting from his drugs are giving him another layer of freedom and responsibility.

Well, I'm not certain that bringing drug dealers bent on murder to his home is handling his family responsibilities as well as can be expected. I'm not certain that missing his daughter's birth because he's making a drug run is handling his family responsibilities as well as can be expected. I'm not certain that using his son's Web site, built from a desire to charitably help, to launder drug money is is handling his family responsibilities as well as can be expected. Maybe I'm being too harsh, though.