Melisandre's secret agenda

[Dougsmum]

Religion had an only colloquial interest in the first ice and Fire book, until the ending; in the Game of Thrones there was almost no cultural reference to magic, religion or occultism, withstanding the hidden blue elephant, the others, whom nobody in Westeros knows about, and then the birth of Daenarys' dragons.The Starks had their trees, the Tully's had their seven faced gods, but these were remote, uninterfering elements. First chapter, Clash of Kings, enter a howling occult presence in the form of the demonness Melisandre.

We could take note of the growing imbalance in Westeros and its departure from calmer, non intervening religious norms, into a state of chaotic religious and cultural imbalnce, and ensuing warfare and misery. Melisandre's ascendance and personality represent this departure from decency. Who knows maybe she'll turn out to be right and save the world from the others. Right now I'd call her real evil.

As for her secret agenda, it's of an occult nature; religious, she's not in any political camp like Littlefinger or Varys.

So are you saying she is hiding behind this R'hollor stuff to further her occult activities? It could be that she doesn't care one bit about her red god, and has some other sort of ritual going on when she burns people...

[Jaan Vikary]

Burning people? I'd say that's pretty occult by human standards.

[Jaan Vikary]

When I want religion in my life I go hold hands with a girl, or spend the afternoon with my mother, something like that, I don't go burning people.

[Dougsmum]

What I meant was maybe she burns people in the name of R'hollor, but really she is sacrificing to something darker that she doesn't want anyone else to know about. Maybe something else is giving her the power to create shadowchildren, and she is using R'hollorism to hide or justify her activities. It's just a thought. We won't know anything until we read her POV. Holy moly, that will be interesting!

[Jaan Vikary]

I think maybe she does sacrifice people to something darker. That's natural to consider. If you think G.R.R. Martin is going to present Melisandre; a human sacrificer, as a saviour of the human race, I pity you. He just doesn't seem like that kind of guy.

[A wilding]

GRRM doesn't do anything so straightforward as create simple "saviour of the human race" characters.

Now if you had said "GRRM wouldn't present a human sacrificer as someone genuinely trying to save the human race", then I think that you would find people willing to disagree with you.

Whether that is really her motive is still up in the air of course. My guess is that she at least pretends to herself that it is her motive.

[Jaan Vikary]

The question is, can a devil worshipper save humanity. I think Melisandre's a cool woman, with the exception of murdering people and burning them. Evil. She touches people in that way, that I'm evil, but I have power, and I have a purpose with humanity that is primordial and essential. Deeply moral characters such as Davos are highly disoriented by her. Most POV chapters describing Melisandre are seen through his eyes. Stannis an extremely determined and disciplined character, is broken in half by her. She is biblical, and fiery, and red, so red.

[A wilding]

We can't tell for certain whether or not gods (or devils) exist in the Westeros universe. So to an atheist such as myself, the only difference between a devil worshipper and any other religious person lies in their actions - and historically plenty of RL religious people have killed in the name of their religion, in some cases by burnings.

Personally, I have met several RL religious zealots who disorient and upset me, this is an effect of their (to me) skewed view of life, apparently impervious to logic. If I was to meet such a person who had demonstrable magic powers as well, I am sure that I would be seriously creeped out.

[Jaan Vikary]

yeah.

[youper]

Mel is evil. It is known.

I suspect that she is out to help the Others in some way, but even if she is against the Others she is still evil.

[Jon Blackfyre]

I suspect that she is out to help the Others in some way, but even if she is against the Others she is still evil.

I don't think she is out to help the Others. She is definitely against them, but there is such a thing as taking religion to an extreme. She is an extremist, a zealot. She believes so strongly that her way is the right way that she is blinded to the harm she causes or the facts that would prove her wrong.

The whole kings blood waking dragons from stone for instance. SHE'S RIGHT!!! Kings blood did wake dragons from stone, Dany did it. Mel saw this would happen, but read it wrong, and so now she'll stop and nothing and do anything to help Stannis wake dragons from stone when it's already happened.

She obviously has power, but she misuses it. Crazy fanatic of the Lord of Light she is, servant of the Great Other she is not.

[Yakman]

We can't tell for certain whether or not gods (or devils) exist in the Westeros universe.

can't we?

1 - Mel's magic is real.

2 - The Gods of the North seem to have a great deal of power in their own way.

3 - That Seastone chair had to come from somewhere.

I think it's pretty clear that there are Gods out there in Westeros. What's not clear is what exactly is their doing and what isn't.

[Lord Varys]

Yakman,

magic is real in Westeros, no one doubts that, but that does not proof that the magic people are able to perform in Martinworld, is connected to a divine power of some sort. Just because the people who perform magic contribute it to their god, does not make it so. They might believe that this is the case, but there is no proof.

Dany's magic, for example, did work, although she did not address any god whatsoever during her dragon waking ritual. And this was the most magical stuff we have seen until now.

All we know about the Old Gods is that they do not seem to be gods as we modern people do describe gods. They are somehow bound to the faces in the weirwood trees. If you cut the trees down and destroy the faces, these so-called 'gods' no longer reach you - even if you believe in them. So they are neither omnipotent, omniscient, or immortal. That leads me to the conclusion that, whoever is behind the term 'Old Gods' may be some kind of supernatural force, but it cannot be a real divine power dwelling in some kind of transcendent heaven.

The Seastone Chair obviously comes from the sea. It is a chair cut from huge seastone (or rather, a huge rock) that washed up at a shore centuries ago. The whole Ironborn mysticism is just crap. Or does anybody really believe the Storm God cast down Balon as Aeron preached? Does anybody think the Drowned God really revives the Drowned Men (and refuses to revive those who are unworthy)? There is nothing real in this belief, no god, and apparently no magic. The old bones of that dragon creature on Old Wyk might be genuine, though.

[Dougsmum]

The sea takes care of the Ironborn and is thier way of life, that's why they worship the sea. That is the central theme in almost all religion, whatever provides for you is divine and revered. Even though it sounds like a bunch of crap, try to imagine that where thought goes energy flows. Even a single person with enough devotion can sometimes be very powerful. This is why I think that Melisandre and Aeron Greyjoy are going to lock horns. He is stubborn and just as nutty as she is. If she tires to burn him he will piss out the flames and mock her beliefs.

[Dougsmum]

One more thing, I think that the curse Melisandre placed on Joffery, Balon and Robb was worked into place by maybe "nudging" the circumstances of each target. I don't know if coincidence can explain her success at killing all three of them. But then again, Martin is obscuring her real capabilities by making her look like a dangerous sorceress one moment, and then showing her faking up a Lightbringer for Stannis.

[Guest Other-in-Law]

I imagine that the Seastone Chair was carved by early Ironborn stone scuptors, back in the Age of Heroes. The legend that it was sitting there, all finished, when the first men ever set foot on Old Wyk is hardly reliable history. No more than the Grey King reigning for a thousand years.

[The Leech Lord]

One more thing, I think that the curse Melisandre placed on Joffery, Balon and Robb was worked into place by maybe "nudging" the circumstances of each target. I don't know if coincidence can explain her success at killing all three of them. But then again, Martin is obscuring her real capabilities by making her look like a dangerous sorceress one moment, and then showing her faking up a Lightbringer for Stannis.

Or, alternatively, she saw these events in the flames, and took the credit. How else do you explain her refusal to repeat the same method over and over til there are no major threats left? Hell, she doesn't even need the Storm kid for that. Its non-lethal, she could just take a few leeches from Stannis a day.

[Dougsmum]

Very clever Leech Lord! Perhaps Mel is powerful enough to see certain events in her flames, and the rest of the time she is burning people just to see if that gets her any more results. She faked Lightbringer to secure her hold on Stannis so that she can continue to experiment with human sacrifice. I wonder if she came to westeros because back in Asshai the other shadowbinders wouldn't allow her to go to such extremes. We met Quaithe of the Shadows, and she seemed rather benign in comparison to Melisandre.

[WinterBreeze]

(First post, be gentle to me please :P)

Personally I think Mel's heart is in the right place, and that she is a convert from whatever shadow-binder stuff she was formally involved with. However, The Road to Hell is Paved with the Best Intentions.

As far as The Others are involved with her, I think its safe to say she is against them.

Concerning her.... obsession(?) with lighting kids on fire, I think she's just a bit of a sociopath.

I believe that her POV is going to be a fun read indeed,

hopefully she does not stumble upon little Bran next time she's looking for a prince to set ablaze T-T

[The Leech Lord]

Very clever Leech Lord! Perhaps Mel is powerful enough to see certain events in her flames, and the rest of the time she is burning people just to see if that gets her any more results. She faked Lightbringer to secure her hold on Stannis so that she can continue to experiment with human sacrifice. I wonder if she came to westeros because back in Asshai the other shadowbinders wouldn't allow her to go to such extremes. We met Quaithe of the Shadows, and she seemed rather benign in comparison to Melisandre.

Maybe, maybe not. We've only seen Quaithe with people she's friendly with so far. And even then, she's shown powers beyond even Melisandre's, in projecting an image of herself hundreds of miles away. Whether that means her powers are greater, or just different, we don't know, but I don't think its safe to use the word benign for her yet.

As for Melisandre's secret agenda, I don't think she has one. She seems to be exactly what she is at first glance - a fanatic completely devoted to defeating the Others, whatever the cost. Does she go over the top? Yes. Does she sacrifice everything else to pursue this goal? Yes. Is there likely more to her than meets the eye? Yes. But to say that she's the complete opposite of everything she's stood for and worked for just cause we don't know everything and she's not a nice person? Ridiculous.