Melisandre's secret agenda

[Dalan]

I fully expect Jon to be forced from the wall. Crackpot theory:

He is charged with some sort of great crime or ordered for execution by Stannis (perhaps for defying him in some way, and threatened to get burned by Melisadre), and realizes the wall is in danger from Stannis, he must search for allies far from the wall. That is where he will meet Dany. And of course it will be tough for him, because just like every other character in this series, he has to choose between his honor (keeping his oaths) OR saving the wall and the nights watch (marrying or allying with Dany to secure her aid).

[Bran Three Eyes]

first post here, although i've been a lurker. i've been rereading the books, and i've noticed that jon's main conflict so far was resolved with him obeying the spirit of the law (defend the wall) than the letter of the law (the oath itself). i think his conflict with the wildlings is building up to another similar conflict; for example, what if he realizes that the only way to stop the others is to unite the north under his rule? i can see him having to make a kingslayer type decision in the future, where he does what he believes is right even though those around him may despise him for it.

Also, I can see him being forced to make "evil" or at least morally questionable decisions to preserve the greater good. I remember reading that some people thought that dream he had was foreshadowing for this. Given GRRM's desire to stay away from the traditional hero figure, I can see jon forced to choose between the lesser of two evils and drift away from the traditional hero role.

[Lord Godric]

Presumably "entirely decimated" means wiped out, or very nearly so. In which case Jon's survival with any sort of honour intact would require heavy authorial protection that I personally don't see happening.

I do see it happening. Either that or Dany will just strip Jon of his responsibility. Neither will make people happy, both will have people claim Jon is the Gary Stu to Dany's Mary Sue, but Jon will not end this series on the Wall. He is destined for bigger and better things than Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. Especially if he is the son of the Rhaegar and Lyanna. I believe the Wall will fall. I believe the Others will push past Castle Black and the Night's Watch into the Seven Kingdoms proper. I don't believe Jon will die. So the only logical explanation is that he will somehow be either not of the Night's Watch when this happens or he and his surviving Brothers will retreat to somehow rally troops. Until eventually Dany and her dragons defeat the Others.

[LC Snow]

I do see it happening. Either that or Dany will just strip Jon of his responsibility. Neither will make people happy, both will have people claim Jon is the Gary Stu to Dany's Mary Sue, but Jon will not end this series on the Wall. He is destined for bigger and better things than Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. Especially if he is the son of the Rhaegar and Lyanna. I believe the Wall will fall. I believe the Others will push past Castle Black and the Night's Watch into the Seven Kingdoms proper. I don't believe Jon will die. So the only logical explanation is that he will somehow be either not of the Night's Watch when this happens or he and his surviving Brothers will retreat to somehow rally troops. Until eventually Dany and her dragons defeat the Others.

I am inclined to agree with all of the above and love the R+L=J theory and would even be happy if Jon was AAR as he is my favorite character. However, the fact that pretty much everyone is of the opinion that Jon is essential to the story and will either survive for awhile and go out in a blaze of glory or live through the end makes me worry George will kill him off shortly. If there was some type of proof that that would not happen I would feel much better.

[iamthedave]

I see zero evidence of Jon dying.

None whatsoever.

For all the claims of Martin being unpredictable, there's very few character deaths that are genuinely surprising. Did I see the Red Wedding coming? Nope. Did I know Cat and Robb were completely goat-screwed by the time it happened? Yep. It's written on the wall in letters so large you'd have to be blind, drunk, mad and firing great swords out of a slingshot to miss it.

Ned was a genuine surprise, but only because it seemed set for him to take the black. Either way it looked like he was out of the story.

Martin's unpredictable in form, certainly, but the narrative isn't subtle about characters that aren't long for this world. Jon's here to stay.

[Ser Kevan Raley]

For all the claims of Martin being unpredictable, there's very few character deaths that are genuinely surprising. Did I see the Red Wedding coming? Nope. Did I know Cat and Robb were completely goat-screwed by the time it happened? Yep. It's written on the wall in letters so large you'd have to be blind, drunk, mad and firing great swords out of a slingshot to miss it.

Ned was a genuine surprise, but only because it seemed set for him to take the black. Either way it looked like he was out of the story.

Martin's unpredictable in form, certainly, but the narrative isn't subtle about characters that aren't long for this world. Jon's here to stay.

I agree! The killings that have taken place so far have been a ruse so now a lot of readers think that anyone can bite the dust at any time. But I think it's become clear which characters have plot armour. At first we were lulled into believing that Ned, Cat, Robb etc. were main characters but they never were.

Now it would be pretty pointless to kill off, say, Arya or Dany. Then a lot of their POV chapters would be wasted. That doesn't mean that they won't die eventually (we all do) but it seems pretty obvious to me that there is still a lot to tell about them. By the end of AGoT Ned had fulfilled this purpose.

Of course I might be completely wrong and ADwD will set me straight... :unsure:

[nomad6]

Okay guys, me and my friend had developed a theory about Melisandre that I'd like to share.

"Melisandre is actually a false priest of R'llor, actually working on behalf of the Great Other"

I'll present the evidence below, and while none of the evidence by itself is damning, the culmulative effect has me thinking the above is possible.

Evidence

1. The consistent comfortable use of blood magic to bring death.

When we look at other practitioners of R'llor or even other blood mages, the end game for their magic has always been to enhance life. Thoros brings back Beric, even Mirri Maz Duur in her own twisted way is somehow enhancing life by bringing Drogo back to life, albeit a horrible mockery. Melisandre demands the blood of innocents to bring more death.

2. Respected characters consistently see her as evil and a threat, but she is never exposed truly as either evil or good.

The fact that Davos and Maester Cressen both attempted to assassinate her isn't damning by itself. But I tend to trust Davos's judgement quite a bit, and maesters in general. And in terms of her character's tone, it has always been one of dread and forbidance. Melisandre is situated currently in moral limbo. She is doing all these small individual acts that interpretted by themselves seem kinda evil. Her justification is predicated on believing that her end game is that she is fighting the Great Other. It's in everyone's best interest... but what if it's not? I think that GRRM has given us so much reason to suspect her.. but always pulled it back, to the point that we've kind of accepted that she's basically ASOIAF's version of the torture debate. What is morally permissible? But I think that making her just actually evil is a great plot twist. Again.. not conclusive or damning by itself in any way.

3. Dany's prophetic visions at the House of the Undying

This one I'm going to need someone with access to a clash of kings to help me verify because I don't have the book. Some of the visions that Dany has during her visit are very troubling.. Two in particular: one is of a man (with a crown I believe) standing with a burning sword with glowing blue eyes. This immediately should ring of Stannis. After all he is the proclaimed Azor Ahai by Melisandre, yet he also has the tell tale characteristic of the Others? I firmly believe that based off this prophetic vision, Stannis WILL fall at the wall and be reawaken as a wight. What will Melisandre's role be in bringing this to pass? I tend to think that Melisandre will betray Stannis completely and use his King's blood in a final sacrifice, perhaps to break the wall. But again this is conjecture.

What do you guys think? Can you think of any additional supporting evidence? Or where are the holes in this theory?

[Nukelavee]

I agree.

I missed the bit about the blue eyes, but...

The story of the forging of Lightbringer is vastly different as told to Davos than what Mel does. Stannis' sword is a fake, right from it's creation. It burns with jade green fire when he pulls it out...wildfire. The sword itself seems ruined to Davos eyes after Stannis drops it, and it isn't glowing.

I'm not sure exactly what I think she's up to - whether she intends to use Stannis to prevent the chance for teh real saviour, whether she intends to have him under her control for her own aggenda, but I don't think she has teh good of Westeros in mind.

[Faint]

I may be alone on this but I have a great deal more mistrust that Marwyn is being true in his intentions than Melisandre. Yet, nobody is talking about him and he's headed right to the real Azor Ahai.

[Volderon]

Okay guys, me and my friend had developed a theory about Melisandre that I'd like to share.

"Melisandre is actually a false priest of R'llor, actually working on behalf of the Great Other"

I'll present the evidence below, and while none of the evidence by itself is damning, the culmulative effect has me thinking the above is possible.

Evidence

1. The consistent comfortable use of blood magic to bring death.

When we look at other practitioners of R'llor or even other blood mages, the end game for their magic has always been to enhance life. Thoros brings back Beric, even Mirri Maz Duur in her own twisted way is somehow enhancing life by bringing Drogo back to life, albeit a horrible mockery. Melisandre demands the blood of innocents to bring more death.

2. Respected characters consistently see her as evil and a threat, but she is never exposed truly as either evil or good.

The fact that Davos and Maester Cressen both attempted to assassinate her isn't damning by itself. But I tend to trust Davos's judgement quite a bit, and maesters in general. And in terms of her character's tone, it has always been one of dread and forbidance. Melisandre is situated currently in moral limbo. She is doing all these small individual acts that interpretted by themselves seem kinda evil. Her justification is predicated on believing that her end game is that she is fighting the Great Other. It's in everyone's best interest... but what if it's not? I think that GRRM has given us so much reason to suspect her.. but always pulled it back, to the point that we've kind of accepted that she's basically ASOIAF's version of the torture debate. What is morally permissible? But I think that making her just actually evil is a great plot twist. Again.. not conclusive or damning by itself in any way.

3. Dany's prophetic visions at the House of the Undying

This one I'm going to need someone with access to a clash of kings to help me verify because I don't have the book. Some of the visions that Dany has during her visit are very troubling.. Two in particular: one is of a man (with a crown I believe) standing with a burning sword with glowing blue eyes. This immediately should ring of Stannis. After all he is the proclaimed Azor Ahai by Melisandre, yet he also has the tell tale characteristic of the Others? I firmly believe that based off this prophetic vision, Stannis WILL fall at the wall and be reawaken as a wight. What will Melisandre's role be in bringing this to pass? I tend to think that Melisandre will betray Stannis completely and use his King's blood in a final sacrifice, perhaps to break the wall. But again this is conjecture.

What do you guys think? Can you think of any additional supporting evidence? Or where are the holes in this theory?

Could it be that Melisandre is actually The Great Other? The vision Dany had might not be literal and that the person BEHIND Stannis (Mel) is evil?

[LC Snow]

Could it be that Melisandre is actually The Great Other? The vision Dany had might not be literal and that the person BEHIND Stannis (Mel) is evil?

I've mentioned this before, I think Mel, knowingly or not, is an agent for the Great Other if not actually some form of the Great Other. The vision of Stannis with blue eyes sounds EXACTLY like the story of the Night King, who if you remember was corrupted by his wife who had become an agent of the GO. That story would be a near perfect parallel for Mel/Stannis if he were to become the Night King.

[Volderon]

I've mentioned this before, I think Mel, knowingly or not, is an agent for the great other if actually some form of the Great Other. The vision of Stannis with blue eyes sounds EXACTLY like the story of the Night King, who if you remember was corrupted by his wife who had become an agent of the GO. That story would be a near perfect parallel for Mel/Stannis if he were to become the Night King.

That's so true, I remember now...and Stannis IS at the Wall now, so that's another parallel to the Night King. So far all of Dany's visions have become true, so I think we'll see the outcome in ADWD perhaps? You just KNOW something is going to happen at the Wall.

[Nukelavee]

It's either that...or somebody named Arthas is out and about north of the Wall.

Alleliua - I wouldn't even want to hazard a guess right now about Maryn.

[Lord Godric]

That's so true, I remember now...and Stannis IS at the Wall now, so that's another parallel to the Night King.

Not only that, but Stannis demanded that Jon give him the Nightfort, the former home of the Night's King. I don't think it is a coincidence that we hear Old Nan's story about the Night's King and then Stannis demands the same castle for himself.

[nomad6]

Where in the books is the Night King legend discussed? I don't seem to recall it.

[Lord Godric]

In A Storm of Swords, as Bran reaches the Nightfort he recollects about the stories he has heard about the place from Old Nan. One of those stories is the story of the Night's King. For ease, here is the wiki page.

[It’s a me Daario]

Eh, it seems to me that Azor Ahai and Rh'llor go hand in hand, like Jesus and the Judaeo-Christian god. Sallador Saan was clearly familiar with the Azor Ahai story, so I doubt it's exclusive to Asshai and not part of Rh'llorism in the Free Cities. Thoros speaking of AA would really clinch that, but I don't recall him doing so offhand.

Quaithe is primarily from the Shadowlands (thus the mask) though she's referred to as being from both the Shadowlands and from Asshai (I like to compare this to a Scotsman in Korea, who the locals may think of as an Englishman, even if he only lived in England for a few years). It could be that Asshai overwhelmingly worships Rh'llor while the Shadowlands do not...aside from being neighbors, it's hard to tell what exactly their relationship is...age-old enemies? Suzerain and subject? Economic partners but political rivals? Could be almost anything.

Yeah, someone who either rejects evidence or claims it actually proves her right, through some tortuous logic (like her use of cold shadows really being a holy thing of the god of heat and light rather than the god of cold and darkness :stillsick: ) is pretty annoying.

Hmm... I don't see why the core of her theology isn't sound Rh'llorianism, aside from the suspicious shadow magic.

I agree that the Targaryens were never really Rh'llor followers, maybe never even heard of him before Thoros came over. But I don't think the Targaryen prophecies are the same as the Asshai'i ones. They may be very similar in content, may even be about the same person or events, but I don't think they have the same provenance. Marwyn's Book of Lost Books had a fragment from a 1,400 year old prophecy by Aenar Targaryen's maiden daughter...that could be the source of all the Targaryen PtwP stuff (which is explicitly valyrian rather than Asshai'i, since the misinterpretation of the gender of the PtwP was due to a translation of dragon, iirc)

I had always figured that it was a very old religion that only recently expanded westward, but this seems quite possible as well...a new religion synthesising elements from older religions or histories. Interesting idea.

Maester Aemon is definitely familiar with Mel's sources (at least in a broad sense) since he gave Jon some recommended reading from the Jade Compendium, about the legends of the far east. Mel, though...I'm not convinced that she was familiar with the Targaryen or First Man lore (why did Davos have to suggest going to the Wall? Why didn't she come up with that?), instead she may have just been bluffing about having all the answers. Like, after hearing about something for the very first time: "Oh, yes. That's nothing more than blah blah blah".

LMAO,

I skimmed most of this thread, and for some reaason NOBODY mentinos or questions why the hell would people from Asshai have a freaking prophecy concerning a land that is literally on the other side of the world!!!!!!!!!!!!!

'AA has absolutely nothing to do with her homeland, and there are absolutely zerp connections to lead us to believe.

ALSO, WHY WOULD THEY CARE OF A "PTWP"? A person who has absolutely no influence on their life in any way. The others invaded WESTEROS.

Can someone please clear up whatever i am missing for me please? I just don't get why they would worry enough to prophesize about him, and secondly, how the hell would they even know of his story concidering that ummmmm, they are on the opposite side of the world......so any stories passed on that made it all the way over there would be waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay different then the original story.......and don't tell me that isn't something GRRM would consider, because after all, he has already(in 2001) stated that even out own narrators can't even get their own stories straight that they were involved in, like Sansa remembering that the Hound kissed her that night, when he didn't.

[RhymesWith_FREAK]

LMAO,

I skimmed most of this thread, and for some reaason NOBODY mentinos or questions why the hell would people from Asshai have a freaking prophecy concerning a land that is literally on the other side of the world!!!!!!!!!!!!!

'AA has absolutely nothing to do with her homeland, and there are absolutely zerp connections to lead us to believe.

ALSO, WHY WOULD THEY CARE OF A "PTWP"? A person who has absolutely no influence on their life in any way. The others invaded WESTEROS.

Can someone please clear up whatever i am missing for me please? I just don't get why they would worry enough to prophesize about him, and secondly, how the hell would they even know of his story concidering that ummmmm, they are on the opposite side of the world......so any stories passed on that made it all the way over there would be waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay different then the original story.......and don't tell me that isn't something GRRM would consider, because after all, he has already(in 2001) stated that even out own narrators can't even get their own stories straight that they were involved in, like Sansa remembering that the Hound kissed her that night, when he didn't.

I raised the same question in this thread not to long ago

I cant understand what would lead Rhaegar to concern himself with Ptwp prophecies being he is a Seven follower, or how AA even got to Westeros to fight the Others, and why the hell did he even care about helping the North when he is like you say on the other side of the world?

[Silmarien]

I'm convinced she's exactly what she claims to be.

She is the Gandalf of A Song of Ice and Fire: powerful wizard with superiour knowledge of the backstory, uniquely understands the threat posed by the Big Evil on the Other Side of the Mountains. She backs the true king in exile to get his kingdom back and defeat said evil.

Of course, GRRM deliberately subverts the trope in the following ways:

(1) We meet Melisandre first through the eyes of her political opponents at court (Cressen, Davos). This would correspond to Lord of the Rings having POVs by Denethor or Grima Wormtongue, or maybe Saruman, which focus on the nasty, arrogant, power-player, drug-addict sides of Gandalf.

(2) Melisandre picked the wrong "Aragorn." This corresponds to Gandalf falsely backing some other random Numenorean, who Elrond happens to have give the Ring of Barahir, and scheming to put him on the Gondorian throne.

Gandalf never burned people alive as offerings to Eru, especially eight year old boys. Nor did he create shadow figures to kill his enemies. He also didn't give Aragorn a fake magic sword. Sorry, had to comment on that.

[Silmarien]

I think Melisandre is seeing visions of people who will lead her to AA reborn. First she sees Stannis, who we know gets her to The Wall. Then she sees Jon Snow whom she might be beginning to believe is actually AA reborn.

If Dany is AA reborn instead (her dragon hatching flame pyre with smoke and salt thing leads me to believe she is AA reborn. Perhaps Jon is the PWWP?), she might land in Westeros at The Wall, where Mel's visions have led her (eventually, to the real AA reborn).

Alternately, Dany encounters Melisandre if The Others sweep through the North and Jon + other survivors + Mel pursue battle - Mel meets Dany at the Trident.

All are just my theories - I'm probably wrong.