nester66 Posted March 26, 2007 Share Posted March 26, 2007 Hahaha! Nice, I like Rome as well. Funny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the silent speaker Posted March 26, 2007 Share Posted March 26, 2007 There's one thing Brienne knows about Arya that Stoneheart does not know: that the girl headed to the Dreadfort is not her. So I think "Arya" or "Bolton" is a viable choice. This would also serve the important function of supporting her story that Jaime wasn't collaborating with her to cause the Stark children harm, since the information came from him. Something connected to Gendry is a longshot possibility, but I don't see why it would ransom her life. I think "sword" is too straightforward and wouldn't need to be cliffhung, and "dammit" wouldn't save her -- and Brienne can't die here or Martin wouldn't be able to leave her last word unsaid. "Sansa" doesn't give Stoneheart anything new, and "Jaime" only confirms the opinion she already has. "Sapphires" wouldn't work for reasons stated, and I don't like notions of "oathbreaker" or "Stark" or similar because Stoneheart is not only a Cat in a different coat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LindaElane Posted March 26, 2007 Share Posted March 26, 2007 All along, I've been thinking she yelled "Arya". Oddly, today, I think she yelled "Jaime" and Jaime and company jumped out of the woods to save her. I guess it shows that six years of waiting for a good book have made a skeptic of me. Sorry..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A wilding Posted March 26, 2007 Share Posted March 26, 2007 There's one thing Brienne knows about Arya that Stoneheart does not know: that the girl headed to the Dreadfort is not her. Stoneheart does know that Arya was with Sandor at least as late as the fight at the Inn at the Crossroads. Which would which would make the timing rather tight for Arya to have been captured by Lannisters, identified, and sent down to KL in time to be sent back with Steelshanks. Moreover, given Stoneheart's intelligence seems pretty good, and that she has been searching for Arya and the Hound, I imagine she would have expected to have heard something about Arya's capture if it had taken place - why should it be kept secret? So I would say that she probably has a very good idea that the Bolton's Arya is a fake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the silent speaker Posted March 27, 2007 Share Posted March 27, 2007 I imagine she would have expected to have heard something about Arya's capture if it had taken place - why should it be kept secret? On that point if no more, weren't the Lannisters keeping quiet about not having her secure in the first place? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A wilding Posted March 27, 2007 Share Posted March 27, 2007 True, I hadn't thought of that point. That could give them a motive for trying to keep her capture secret. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Steven of Excelsior Posted March 29, 2007 Share Posted March 29, 2007 Just as long as Brienne doesn't come back as UnBrienne. And I'm bummed that UnCatelyn who has made the worst choices of any woman character next to Scarlett O'Hara, is worse now that she's Undead. Please, no more undeads. Amen to that! NO MORE UNDEADS! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsandersiii Posted March 30, 2007 Share Posted March 30, 2007 Fire- not Ice, not sword, nor any of her children or Jaime.- Fire will get their attention. Fire is where they see their visions. It is the kiss of fire that gave Cat her life(albeit a an undead one). her scream of "FIRE!" would ring in their ears as they would watch her die and haunt their dreams if they let her. Their priests worship with it and couldn't let her hang without the reasoning behind her saying it. And maybe GRRM is being tricky as it is the last word in Jaime's last chapter as well. Although "sword" was the last word in Brienne's previous chapter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Wolf Posted April 4, 2007 Share Posted April 4, 2007 Why couldn't it be "trial" or "combat"? They gave The Hound trial by combat - why not give Brienne the same chance? It certainly wasn't much of a trial that she had in front of Stoneheart. I guess "sword" could be taken for the same sort of request, though. Also, Brienne was thinking of heading for the Vale to look for Sansa. Maybe a cry of "Eyrie" would get some attention. I don't think"Sansa" would do it, as that might simply be perceived as some sort of cry for forgiveness. I do think whatever it is will be enough to save her (at least from the noose). Without Brienne, we have no POV regarding the BwB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dark Griffin Posted April 4, 2007 Share Posted April 4, 2007 HOOOOOOODDDDDDDDDDDDOOOOOOOOOOOOOORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!! Awesome. Knowing GRRM, it'll be something none of us has guessed yet. But how about something weird, like "Mother!" Catelyn and Brienne seemed to have a strange mother-daughter thing going on. Ok, maybe not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Wolf Posted April 4, 2007 Share Posted April 4, 2007 Just as long as Brienne doesn't come back as UnBrienne. And I'm bummed that UnCatelyn who has made the worst choices of any woman character next to Scarlett O'Hara, is worse now that she's Undead. Please, no more undeads. No, no. That's just it...the final culmination of Ice and Fire. All of R'hllor's undead (Fire) vs. all of The Others' undead (Ice). A battle royale! :fence: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mortimer the Vile Posted April 6, 2007 Share Posted April 6, 2007 What if she yelled, "Oathkeeper!" Birenne is so honorable she would probably die happily that way. Also it could act as a curse against DeadCat. Or she could yell, "Oathbreaker!" as a more direct curse against DeadCat since she is going to die anyway and a lord/lady that kills someone for oathbreaking who has not actually broken any oaths are themselves oathbreakers. Frankly, DeadCat doesn't have any right whatsoever to judge Brienne who nearly died and got half her face chewed and sliced off while searching for DeadCats daughters. Another possibility, does the word even have to mean anything so long as it doesn't make her an oathbreaker? Brienne was hung from a willow while the others were hung from oaks, but it was not mentioned that it was a gigantic willow. Frankly, I can't see a normal sized willow being strong enough to hold her off the ground long enough to die by choking. Have any of you ever tried to climb out on the branches of a willow tree even as a child? From what I recall, the result was a rapid return to the ground and I was a puny kid. From what I remember most willow branches are like noodles, barely able to support their own weight but so soft and springy that its almost impossible to break a live branch. Its confusing. Its probably best if she gets killed tho because she is just too stupid and ugly. One or the other would be ok, but both together is a certain doom. Too bad it wasn't Tyrion. But then he would have WORDS not just one word. But we know what those words would be, "BUGGER YOU ALL!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errant Bard Posted April 6, 2007 Share Posted April 6, 2007 Another possibility, does the word even have to mean anything so long as it doesn't make her an oathbreaker?Well, Uncat proposed a choice: -Sword or noose? -I refuse to choose -Noose then Hence, anything but sword gets her killed, so it doesn't really matter if she shouts gibberish, as long as it's not "sword", the result is the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Ent Posted April 6, 2007 Share Posted April 6, 2007 [...] who has not actually broken any oaths are themselves oathbreakers. We seem to have the same conversation over and over on this thread: Brienne is the sworn sword of Catelyn Stark. As such, she is oath-bound to obey any order Lady Catelyn gives. Any order. That's the point of the oath. (Otherwise it would be phrased "I vow to do anything for you that I agree with in the first place".) And Brienne flat-out refuses to follow such a direct order. In court. Openly. No trial is needed, no evidence need be collected. She is clearly and absolutely guilty of oathbreaking. I cannot see why this is so difficult to accept (except for the fact that we are inside Brienne's head, of course). This in itself is reason enough to hang her for an oathbreaker. What makes matters even worse is that Catelyn's command is perfectly reasonable. She doesn't ask Brienne to kill Old Nan, or Lord Selwyn, or Pretty Pia, or the miller's wife. She asks Brienne to kill Jaime Lannister. The sworn enemy of house Stark; the Lord Commander of the kingsguard protecting the king the BwB is fighting (and getting killed by); the man who apparently had her son killed (remember: Catelyn actually hears Lord Bolton say "Jaime Lannister sends his regards" before he kills Robb); the man who just took Riverrun, threatening to fling Catelyn's newborn niece over the walls. With a trebuchet. I invite you to rack your brain to find any other instance of a perfectly plausible command to kill somebody else in the history of Westeros. If Catelyn's command is unreasonable, then all such commands are unreasonable. (Which you may well argue, but then the whole debate is silly and Brienne's oath counts for nothing.) To make matters even worse, Brienne seems to love Jaime, rides with a Lannister squire, Lannister papers, and a knight from the very outfit whose current job it is to hang the Brotherhood without Banners. That makes Brienne herself an enemy, so she might be hanged just for that. (But she isn't. She is hanged for oathbreaking. Pod and Ser Hyle are hanged for being The Enemy.) It is testament to GRRM's writing skills that he makes us take Brienne's side in this chapter. I was a chocked as everybody else. But Catelyn is absolutely in her rights, and Brienne, until she finally remembers her vows and screams "Sword!", is absolutely an oathbreaker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nester66 Posted April 6, 2007 Share Posted April 6, 2007 I agree 100% with HE about it being oathbreaker. I do think it will add a lot to Breinnes story, the conflict and such, and I, for one, would love to see her finally break a oath and not kill jamie. Instead to team up to kill stoneheart. Don't get me wrong, I want Jamie to die by the end of the books. I just want him to kill Cersei first, and I would like to see uncat, and all Un's for that matter, die. I would also like to see the evolution of the very young brienne as she breaks the vow and how she feels about jamie after understanding what that is like. Though I think if Cat knew all the truth she would understand. I don't, however, see how any of the truth would not fall upon deaf ears with a grieving mother whos son was killed with the last words he heard in life as "Jamie Lanister sends his regards" While that song played, just to ironic and evil. Though a different word would be cool, its unlikely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Wolf Posted April 6, 2007 Share Posted April 6, 2007 Though a different word would be cool, its unlikely. Oh, I think you and Happy Ent and all the proponents of "sword" are probably correct. It's just fun to speculate and dream up alternatives. Whatever happens, I agree with those who've said that GRRM set this scene up to have Brienne fully understand Jaime's situation regarding conflicting oaths. Doesn't mean she lives; doesn't mean she dies. If I had to bet, I'd say that GRRM probably starts off Q&A sessions at conventions by saying, "Don't ask me when the next book will be ready, and don't ask me what Brienne's word is." I'm sure some of you have gone to the cons - care to confirm or deny? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Still not king Posted April 6, 2007 Share Posted April 6, 2007 UnCat is not present when they hang them, am I right? (Honestly, right now I can't remember.) I think perhaps people focus too much on what would sway UnCat. What would it take to get the BWB to cut her down (thinking they can always string her up again later if whatever she has to say isn't of any value to them)? The word 'Gravedigger' won't mean anything to them. "Graves? We won't bother digging graves for you lot," would be the reaction then, I think. Neither would they care about Arya or Sansa - UnCat dismissed what Brienne had to say, end of story. The girls don't matter to them. Lem might be interested in finding out where the Hound is - if Brienne has managed to put 2 and 2 together that is. Lem and a few of the BWB entering the QI under a white flag and then demanding the life of the Hound would mean that we'd get SC back in action, and possibly the final destruction of the brotherhood. It might mean that the Isle elder desides it's time to take up the sword and join the faith militant. Just an idea. Though, unless Brienne can find something to persuade them to stall the hanging, I just can't see her word being anything else but 'Sword'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Wolf Posted April 6, 2007 Share Posted April 6, 2007 UnCat is not present when they hang them, am I right? (Honestly, right now I can't remember.) I think perhaps people focus too much on what would sway UnCat. What would it take to get the BWB to cut her down (thinking they can always string her up again later if whatever she has to say isn't of any value to them)? That's sort of the reason I suggested "trial." I got the impression that the BwB (at least some) weren't entirely giddy about being led by Stoneheart, so maybe they thought the death sentence was a little rushed. Without Stoneheart in their presence, they might feel like Brienne deserves a "fighting chance" to save herself. Though, unless Brienne can find something to persuade them to stall the hanging, I just can't see her word being anything else but 'Sword'. Agreed. I do think, all things considered, "sword" is the most likely word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Still not king Posted April 6, 2007 Share Posted April 6, 2007 Without Stoneheart in their presence, they might feel like Brienne deserves a "fighting chance" to save herself. Possible. But Lem seems to be the one in charge here, and he ain't too interested in honour anymore. I think for Brienne (and hopefully Pod and Hyle) to get out of this situation is to offer them, and especially Lem, something they want/need. It's also possible that they'll cut her down and give her a mock trial by battle, I guess. If they've fallen that deep. (And some of them resent this, big fight ensuing and they end up killing each other...hell, what do I know.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mortimer the Vile Posted April 6, 2007 Share Posted April 6, 2007 Well, Uncat proposed a choice: -Sword or noose? -I refuse to choose -Noose then Hence, anything but sword gets her killed, so it doesn't really matter if she shouts gibberish, as long as it's not "sword", the result is the same. By the way I agree that "sword" is the logical and correct answer to the riddle but how can you expect logic from a brainless idiot like Brienne? The question is what Brienne's one word is not what the correct answer is because the two are unlikely the same. Still, the end result is the same. She dies for being stupid not an oathbreaker or evil. In fact posing a life or death riddle to someone as stupid as Brienne is itself one of the cruelest, and most vile evil acts in these ASOIAF books so full of vileness. You can't teach a drooling idiot to the level of Einstein no matter what. That trial is simply cruel, vicious, and evil. Myself, I hate riddles and would kill UndeadCat just for the riddle let alone a life or death one tormenting poor, stupid, honorable, oathkeeping Brienne. Its just plain insane but typical of Fantasy genre where good=stupid and evil=smart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.