Sandor and Sansa

[lukahnli]

I think Sandor is......well, not necessarily 'good' but definitely not mean and cruel like his brother. This less awful side is too often blunted by the fact that he hates his brother so much that he ends of hating himself for being related to him.

Some time as a monk may do him some good.....didn't Beric Dondarrion say something to the effect of "He's already in hell."

Although they hate each other, I think there are many parallels to see between Sandor and Tyrion.

-Both of their appearances cause people around them to have strong initial reactions and to form opinions about them.

-Both of them use these initial opinions to their advantage (Tyrion uses the fact that people underestimate and dismiss him, Sandor uses the fear people have of him)

-Both try to do the right thing at times but these gestures go either unnoticed or are repayed with cruelty or indifference (Tyrion: Shae, Sansa. Sandor: Arya, Sansa)

-Tyrion seems to think of himself as a monster after killing Shae. Sandor thought of himself as a monster from the get go.

Sandor is my favorite non-POV character as well.

[feardeathbywater]

Wasn't Sandor pleased when Joffrey died and Sansa escaped? He might even like Tyrion now: I don't see them ever becoming friends, but they could wind up as drinking buddies.

Sandor's monstrousness is his reaction to a world which he sees as monstrous, and rewarding of monsters: a sort of conscious psychopathy from which he occasionally breaks free.

Beat that last statement for pretentiousness!

[Mad Monkey]

Sandor didn't sound pleased when Joffrey died; he sounded bitter and contemptuous of his Kingsguard brothers for failing their kind.

“King Joffrey’s dead, you know,” he added. “Poisoned at his own wedding feast.”

Arya edged farther into the room. Joffrey’s dead. She could almost see him, with his blond curls and his mean smile and his fat soft lips. Joffrey’s dead! She knew it ought to make her happy, but somehow she still felt empty inside. Joffrey was dead, but if Robb was dead too, what did it matter?

“So much for my brave brothers of the Kingsguard.” The Hound gave a snort of contempt. “Who killed him?”

As for liking Tyrion:

The Hound sat on the bench closest the door. His mouth twitched, but only the burned side. “She ought to dip him in wildfire and cook him. Or tickle him till the moon turns black.” He raised his wine cup and drained it straightaway.

And this is in the edited version. In the uncut remake of this chapter, Sandor goes on and on in almost sexual detail about all the horrible things that Cersei should do to Tyrion. It's rather grotesque, really. ;D

[Axon]

Sandor is clearly attracted to Sansa. I realize she's meant to only be 12 or 13 in the books, but enough men comment on her appearance that you can assume she is developed. GRRM has also expressed his desire to age all the kids by 3-5 years or so, if he could, which would make a lot more sense given the scenarios he places them in (Jon Snow as an 18 or 20 year old lord commander makes far more sense than at 15 or 16, Bran's maturity level, etc.)

If you examine Sandor's relationship with Arya, it is clear there is nothing sexual commingled in there at all. But with Sansa, at least in my eyes, there's a lot of varied emotions. He seems to resent her and his attraction to her, and I believe that he looks at her personality with both envy and disdain. You can tell the Hound laments his lot in life to an extent, but is too warped and cynical to stop now. He's also just not a total POS and has his own bizarre code of "honor."

[emmank]

And this is in the edited version. In the uncut remake of this chapter, Sandor goes on and on in almost sexual detail about all the horrible things that Cersei should do to Tyrion. It's rather grotesque, really. ;D

:P teehee.... funny stuff MM.

[feardeathbywater]

Sandor didn't sound pleased when Joffrey died; he sounded bitter and contemptuous of his Kingsguard brothers for failing their kind.

As for liking Tyrion:

And this is in the edited version. In the uncut remake of this chapter, Sandor goes on and on in almost sexual detail about all the horrible things that Cersei should do to Tyrion. It's rather grotesque, really. ;D

Thats high praise from Sandor.

Did he actually LIKE Joffrey? If anything, I would expect him to identify and sympathize with Tommen. As for disparaging the Kingsguard, well, they're knights, aren't they? Not to mention tools and hypocrites, a bunch of goddamned Praetorians in white cloaks. I can't imagine they ever impressed Sandor much.

Since when is there an edited version?

[Dreadwolf]

Since when is there an edited version?

There is no.

But it is known that Mad Monkey edits at will and taste the books that (S)he has, by means of pencil and rubber. So I think it would be fun if we ever see those published . . . :)

[Breakspear]

I think its wrong to assume that because Sandor is attracted to Sansa in some way that his motives are sinister or sexual. The brutal, callous character he pretends to be would make jokes about that sort of thing, but there is no evidence that he is a rapist of young girls and I don't believe it for a second.

Of course, its easy to say "Ew, she's 12! What a creep." because we all know that male sexuality is evil and disgusting. Misandry aside, I think the truth is far less to Sandor's liking. He's attracted to her because she believes in an inherent good within people. This is something that Sandor would dearly love to have for himself but he's not capable of (at that point).

I all honesty, I think a parallel can be drawn with Samwell. Both were born into an environment that they were not equipped to deal with and suffered greatly for it, becoming broken exaggerations of the person that they would have been. In his brothers of the Nights Watch, Sam recovers some of his bravery. In the same way, Sandor finds his faith in humanity through the Stark girls.

[Mad Monkey]

Of course, its easy to say "Ew, she's 12! What a creep." because we all know that male sexuality is evil and disgusting.

To be fair, I wouldn't really like it if a drunken, violent Brienne had stormed in one night and tried to seduce Tommen either.

I don't think that Sandor would rape Sansa either. I agree with what you said about his reasoning, but it still reflects poorly on him. I don't think that Sandor can find peace if he returns to either of the Stark girls, and I don't think he can really help them even if he wanted to. His best bet is basically what he's doing now -- at least until he's put his mind back together and realized that he has to take responsibility for his own life instead of putting it into the hands of people like Joffrey Baratheon or Sansa Stark.

[lukahnli]

I am currently reading ACoK for the second time and came across a passage which adds to my belief that when Sandor tries to do right it is unnoticed. I came to the scene where Joffrey had the Kingsguard beat Sansa. Sansa remarked that only Ser Dontos tried to help.......she seems to have completely ignored that Sandor told Joffrey to stop.

Sandor, the monster's intentions with Sansa I think are pure......well as pure as Sandor is capable of.......okay lets just say not sexual......which is more than I can say for Littlefinger.

[trio]

Thinking Sandor's feelings for Sansa are completely non-sexual? OH MY GOD, COME ON GUYS!! :lol:

And you know what? Despite LF's acknowledged creepiness and ickiness - he's never gone near Sansa's bed. Yeah he's claimed kisses - but he's never crossed the threshold of her room and gone all drunk and dangerous to her bed. And he's been living with her for a full year.

Note that it's not that I'm defending LF - I don't intend to. He's gross. BUT I think saying "LF has been more sexually threatening than Sandor" is really not correct.

[lukahnli]

Okay fine, Sandor is attracted to her somewhat because he is a male and she is female. Fine. I think less of it because Sansa herself doesn't seem to be threatened by Sandor in that manner. Her fear of Sandor isn't what he will do to her in her room, but more because he is a big scary dude who kills a shit ton of people. Also, I get the impression that Sandor's increasingly bold actions are undertaken because he hasn't quite gotten the reaction from Sansa that he expects, he seems to expect her to be completely terrified of him, and sure while she is scared she does her best to overcome that and even be POLITE TO HIM.......THAT IMO also fascinates him.

I definitely think LF is more sexually threatening, just not in an overt way. He is the manipulative sort, he is slowly seducing Sansa. Yeah, he has the master plan of using her to claim winterfell.....but getting jiggy with Catelyn vicariously through her daughter is something he very much has in mind IMHO. Just cuz he hasn't gone near her bed yet means nothing. He hasn't cuz he knows he will frighten her off. With patience SHE WILL GO TO HIS.....he thinks.

[trio]

Her fear of Sandor isn't what he will do to her in her room, but more because he is a big scary dude who kills a shit ton of people.

But the debate isn't what type of fear she feels - she's only 12. I mean, at 12 non of us could differentiate "oh my God he's going to rape me" fear from "oh my God he's going to kill me" fear.

So the random nameless terror that she's articulating isn't a very good indication of what specific violence the unstable man is intending, y'know?

Just cuz he hasn't gone near her bed yet means nothing. He hasn't cuz he knows he will frighten her off. With patience SHE WILL GO TO HIS.....he thinks.

OK maybe.....but this IMO is overlooking the main fascination that some of us have with the character of LF. Yes of course he's icky - but some of us enjoy debating HOW icky. And that really is debateable.

He's been living with Sansa for a year at this stage. (By the start of ADWD she'll be married over a year.) He's claimed kisses, but they seem to be closed-mouth kisses. She's a bit uncomfortable (naturally) - but it doesn't seem to be overtly sexual contact. At least we're not told there's any tongues or anything. She doesn't lock her door (Robin keeps coming in) and he never comes to her room.

So yeah, maybe you're right and he'll suddenly try to rape her. But after all this time I'd be suprised.

After a year of sleeping in the same residence, it certainly seems like he has more self-control than Sandor could ever conjure up. Sandor on the other hand, got drunk and terrified Sansa in her own bed when she was only 12 years old. And later he says to Arya that he should've fucked her. (But his fans go: OH NO, HE WAS LYING!!!"......ok....)

So saying LF was "more sexually threatening"?? I think that's really, really debateable. LF may be skeevy - but he doesn't at all react to women the same truly frightening way as Sandor.

[lukahnli]

The children in Martin's world understand the danger of rape better than the children in our world methinks.

Remember how Sandor was dying and was trying to get Arya to kill him? I think he talked about raping Sansa to get Arya to kill him.

And I am NOT saying that Littlefinger is going to suddenly rape Sansa. I am saying he is going to charm her and work at her until she goes to him. He is going to convince her that HE is her prince like in her stories. Think about it, he saved her from certain doom at King's Landing and is going to raise her up to be lady of the Vale and is going to help her reclaim her ancestral home.

[Alexia]

After a year of sleeping in the same residence, it certainly seems like he has more self-control than Sandor could ever conjure up.

Tough claim to stand behind. Littlefinger kidnapped her and forcibly kissed her, which nearly resulted in her death at the hands of his wife (whom he proceeded to murder). Self-control fail? (And its kidnapping since he deliberately forced her into a position of vulnerability by telling Tywin about the marriage to Willas when she told Dontos she no longer wished to leave with him.) In addition, he's been pulling her into his lap on an ongoing basis for the purpose of shoving his tongue down her throat. I would also like to point out that Sandor shared Sansa's residence (the Red Keep) with her for over two years before he came to her room and was alone with her frequently, if her chapters are any indicator.

*clears throat* Ahem, so yeah, not really getting LF's moral superiority to Sandor here...especially given that Sandor never actually touched her in a sexual way against her will and LF HAS... :leaving:

*Alexia's book of sexual situations/touching includes kissing and sitting in laps...Alexia's book of sexual assault includes both these situations when done against the will of the touchee*

[Mad Monkey]

Are you implying that Littlefinger doesn't have self control? On the contrary, I think he knows exactly what he's doing. He knows that his actions are causing heartache for Sansa; he just doesn't care about her feelings.

We didn't even need any of the scenes they had together to know that -- if he actually loved Sansa, he would have attempted to keep her father from being murdered, or her mother from being murdered, or her brother from being murdered. If he really loved her, he wouldn't have made her complicit in the murder of her aunt and asked to help him place a little boy in harm's way. He has perfect self control; he just chooses to cause harm to others.

Neither of these men really have Sansa's best interests at heart. If I had to pick one as the "best", I would actually say Sandor. Not because he was a better person than Littlefinger -- because he wasn't -- but because he hasn't (and probably will never be able to) torment her for as long and with such obvious glee as LF has.

[trio]

But that's the thing - GRRM never mentions LF's tongue. Or any action in his lap. Eeewwww....I can't believe I'm actually debating this.... :lol:

Look - I'm not defending LF, I'm really not. Probably the guy is grooming her. But I'm playing Devil's Advocate. So far in the books? There's been no mention of tongue, no mention of groins. And I'm inclined to think GRRM would spell it out if it was the case - he's not coy with other characters.

So at the risk of getting into a non-winnable debate of "THIS skeevy guy is better than THIS skeevy guy...!" - I guess I'm just trying to say that just because Sandor hasn't kidnapped Sansa with possibly a view to grooming her doesn't mean he ever had virtuous platonic feelings towards her. So we should be careful of saying "Well at least he's not LF!" Cos personally? I don't think those two characters are comparable, really.

I think they're apples and oranges.

Edited to add (on a complete tangent): I always think that GRRM must sigh at how Sansa & LF's relationship is rather glossed over by fans - everyone just dismisses it without analysing it. "Eeeewww! Gross! She obviously hates him!"

But I find it very interesting psychologically - this girl who doesn't lock her door, and this guy who never tries to open her door.... but yet we know that he has an obsession. And also the interesting way she seems to be quite attached to him, in a perverse "He's all I have" way.....

I long for the day there's actually a decent evenly weighted debate about their relationship on here, but I don't think it's gonna happen... :ohwell:

[Alexia]

But that's the thing - GRRM never mentions LF's tongue.

No, but he does mention him kissing her for a long time. You don't kiss FOR A LONG TIME without using your tongue.

Or any action in his lap. Eeewwww....I can't believe I'm actually debating this.... :lol:

While the exact nature of the action in his lap was not mentioned (*sobs* brain bleach), it is mentioned that he pulled her into his lap while he was talking to her about her impending marriage with Harry.

And I'm inclined to think GRRM would spell it out if it was the case - he's not coy with other characters.

Ah...but he IS! That's what gives us so much fodder for debate on these boards.

I think they're apples and oranges.

:agree:

But I find it very interesting psychologically - this girl who doesn't lock her door, and this guy who never tries to open her door.... but yet we know that he has an obsession. And also the interesting way she seems to be quite attached to him, in a perverse "He's all I have" way.....

She also thinks that she'd flee him if she had some place to go, is creeped out by the thought of him marrying again (b/c she remembers Lysa's murder) and thinks about how he never lifted so much as his little finger for her.

I long for the day there's actually a decent evenly weighted debate about their relationship on here, but I don't think it's gonna happen... :ohwell:

But what would you consider evenly weighted? The relationship is by nature creepy, given LF's relationship to Catelyn and Lysa.

Edit: Its more complex than Sansa hating him, I agree, but she is definitely afraid of him. She's got some weird psychological thing going on and doesn't obsess on it, but she thinks that she doesn't trust him (and unlike tongue, she spells this out), and when Myranda says she wants to marry him, she thinks of Lysa falling. She feels that she has no choices so she (for the most part) doesn't think of it. But she did spell her mistrust out.

Also, do you find the nature of the relationship between LF and Sansa to be romantic?

[trio]

Oh sweet baby Jesus no. It is by nature creepy, as you say. I just suspect that it's intended to be a grey relationship by this time.

Grey in the sense of co-dependance. He's certainly using her and is creepy towards her, but on the other hand probably is starting to see her as family. She's very uneasy, but thinks she has no-one else in the world and whilst she knows he's using her, is still grateful to him for a lot (which you may argue is Stockholm Syndrome of a type).

But you just never see it discussed as grey. Just as very black and white. "He's vile and she is terrified of him. End of story" I think it's waaaaay more interesting than that.

Anyway, sorry to thread-jack!

By the way, for all that I am not a Sandor fan - GRRM has actually gone on the record saying that he's meant to be a grey character. I'm sure the Sandor/Sansa relationship is meant to be grey too. I just think at the moment there IS NO relationship. And considering the messed up place that they're both in psychologically, that's no harm.

[Dreadwolf]

But that's the thing - GRRM never mentions LF's tongue.

Customs varies all over the world. In my personal understanding lips contact is also quite inappropriate exchange as between mentor (father-like) figure and his dependent (daughter). (cf Arya kissing the yellow skull in the house of B&W; or Cersei protector*s like kissing Tommen*s golden curls or brow).

Also it was made clear that LF was not satisfied with the <standard> and dutiful kiss that is expected (in Westeros) from a daughter to his father and finally we all saw that after he showed Sansa what he meant - the girl blushed.

I think we paid more attention to LF and his perverse than he really deserved.

That he demonstrated self control (in mastering his creepy lust or whatever) means nothing and was furthermore in line with his strategic plans (whatever these could be) and calculating personality. In general he slept with Lysa although he did not enjoy that b/c it served his purposes best and he*s been refraining from doing so with Sansa b/c it would spoil these.

Similar self control was demonstrated before that by Sandor and Tyrion but their actual reasoning much more deserved my admirations.

Finally- no matter if we would take it for granted or not that <male sexuality is evil and disgusting> I think it is properly shown in the books that mastering it is not the greatest heroic feat ever that only the most Valiant Knight(s) can achieve.