Sandor and Sansa

[Myrish swan]

I think it's very backwards to say "Wahh I love Sandor, he's such a badass, why does GRRM make him say mean stuff!" Sandor Clegane is nothing more than the words on the page. He says this stuff he says because that's who he is. Or more properly, the things he says define the character he is. There is no other concept of Sandor Clegane outside of what is written in the pages on the book (or rather any other idea is wishful thinking).

Your assertion that “there is no other concept of Sandor Clegane outside of what is written in the books” is interesting. I’m assuming you mean the character is what GRRM wrote it to be. Yet everyone’s “concept” of Sandor is different. IMO, Sandor is more than just “words on the page.” Readers can interpret his actions in wildly different ways. (This is especially true since he is a non POV character, and we are never truly privy to his thoughts.)

Anyway, I’d say the reason why the hound is such a popular character (with myself and others) is because he is morally ambiguous. He killed a little boy, but also has suffered a great deal, and performed many heroic feats.

Your assertion that people are upset because Sandor has said and done mean things is also somewhat surprising. I’ve never come across sentiments like this. From what I've read on this board alone it’s appears that reactions to the hound are mixed. Many people love him unconditionally; some resent him for his actions, but like him nonetheless; and finally, some find him unredeemable and/ or a boring, clichéd stock character. If you’re arguing the last group of people are all angry because Sandor has done/ said morally questionable things and that they hate him because of this, I’m going to have to disagree with you. From the comments I’ve read here from those who dislike Sandor, it seems that some people do understand Sandor and what GRRM is trying to do with him perfectly well; they just find him annoying and find the archetype that he follows rather stale.

Personally, I like Sandor a lot, but find the idea of a Sandor/ Sansa relationship rather gross. I also think that Sansor was somewhat more dangerous/ unpredictable prior to AFFC than most people would care to admit. Though he may love Sansa, and though he helped her out many times throughout the books, I think that the assertion that Sandor “would never ever hurt Sansa, because he loves her,” is erroneous. In the first two books, Sandor is emotionally unstable, bitter, and volatile. In the “singing” scene in ASoS, he is drunk, desperate, and has nothing to lose. Of course, he never hurt her, and should not be blamed for doing so; however, I do believe that, if Sansa had reacted differently in this situation, things could have spun out of control.

[MightilyOats]

He was actually working up the nerve to rape her, which is interesting.

He was drunk, scared, and beyond fucked up mentally from just having lived his life, and he still couldn't muster the will to rape her.

Think on that. This apparent monster had to be dead drunk and terrified before he felt he was capable of molesting a young girl.

You're looking at this in the wrong way.

[inkasrain]

Regarding "I should have fucked her her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her for that dwarf", I think the way you read it depends on how you understand "before." I always read it as a theoretical "instead of", i.e., Clegane thinks that Sansa would have been better off raped and murdered than left for Tyrion (who most people in Westeros seem to think is a pretty nasty little dude.)

You can also read it literally, meaning that Clegane's To-Do list would have read "1) Fuck Sansa 2) Murder Sansa 3) Leave her behind for the dwarf." I can't put my finger on why this reading never held water on me, but every time I've read the scene, I've interpreted it as, among other things, how badly Clegane thinks Sansa will be treated by Tyrion.

Pretty sure there's a lot of varying mileage on this, though.

[Alexia]

He was actually working up the nerve to rape her, which is interesting.

I always felt that he had the (very unrealistic) idea that she would fall into his arms with gratitude for the rescue from KL. But he asked her to come with him in entirely the wrong way, and thus his plans fell through.

IMHO, Sandor considered rape after Sansa's rejection of him and his rescue. How seriously, I couldn't say - but ultimately, he couldn't go through with it. I also agree with Inkasrain's interpretation of the disturbing comments he made to Arya. Obscene and appalling, absolutely - but I always felt that they were hyperbole and it was probably the "ripped her heart out" bit that took it over the top and into the dramatic.

I like Sandor. I think he's a fascinating character and I love the complexity of the relationship between him and Sansa. His mentoring of Arya was impressive as well. I hope that Sandor and Sansa meet again, they are both two very disturbed and mentally traumatized people at this point in the storyline. And the primary thing that I appreciate with the relationship is Sansa's own interest in Sandor. She fantasizes about kissing him, she dreams of him climbing in bed with her, she saves the cloak he left in her room. Is it a healthy interest for her to have? No, not really. But she's a character in a book and the dysfunction of it is a huge aspect of what makes it entertaining.

[Kariggi]

We're mighty hung up on age these days. I have a great aunt who was married at 13, and my grandmothers were married at 15 and 16 and this wasn't hundreds of years ago or in another world. My own wife was 15 when we met, and I was active at the same age (and would have been earlier if the opportunity had presented itself). Beyond the social constructs we so desperately cling to there is no biological reason for humans to restrain their desires beyond the physical age at which their bodies can begin to procreate.

As to Sandor I see him as angry because he's heard all the same stories as Sansa, and was then forced to live in his "real" world, a world or horrible crappy people who hide their evil behind honor and other lies. He is to a great extent the most honest person we see, he tells it like it is (or as he honestly percieves it). His attitude is his armour as long as he expects everyone to have shit for honor he won't be disapointed. Those who don't have shit for honor contradict his world view unless as with Ned they get killed for it, which then goes on to prove his point (at least in his mind) that only the nasty and vile can survive in this world uglier than his face. Sansa still has a chance to not be a totaly vile toad, but only if she survives, and since to survive you have to become an honorless dog her survival would be meaningless, so someone has to be her honorless dog if she is to both survive and not become hopelessly soiled by the filth of this world.

Now who could be Sansa's dog and protect her allowing her to blossom into a good woman, we know she lost her first dog (wolf w/e).

[Grogsmash]

This thread is filled with people talking about how absurdly young the stark kids are. Well, when I first started reading the books and heard about the long winters, I just figured the years in Westeros were 20% or so longer than our years. This makes many of the ages make more sense to me.

As for Sandor, yeah the way he treats Sansa is weird and creepy. Yet jesus, he was Gregor Clegane's younger brother, who held his head in a fire. I feel pity for both of them in their interactions.

[Myrish swan]

We're mighty hung up on age these days. I have a great aunt who was married at 13, and my grandmothers were married at 15 and 16 and this wasn't hundreds of years ago or in another world. My own wife was 15 when we met, and I was active at the same age (and would have been earlier if the opportunity had presented itself). Beyond the social constructs we so desperately cling to there is no biological reason for humans to restrain their desires beyond the physical age at which their bodies can begin to procreate.

This is not completely accurate. Studies have shown that girls who have sex at an early age are twice as likely to develop cervical cancer as women. Very early sex (especially at the age of 12) carries greater risks, we now know.

However, I see your point. In the middle ages girls were frequently marrying at twelve (and this book is set in a medieval context.) And as you mention (with your grandparents) not so long ago, it would not be considered wrong if a 15 year old girl married a grown man.

However, while you have a point about being "hung up on age these days," I don't completely agree with you that a sexual relationship between a 27 year old man and a premenstrual 12 year old girl would be, physically speaking alone, healthy. (I should note here that I beleive that there is a big difference between a 12 year old girl and a 15 year old girl when it comes to becoming sexually active with a grown man.) Though girls got married at 12 in medival times, we now now that at that age, girls are often not done developing. Pregnancy carries far greater risks (generally speaking, not absolutly always) when a girl is 12-13 years old. Though, I guess you could argue that preganancy would not be a risk--when Sandor first starts hitting on Sansa she is still premenstrual. :rolleyes:

Even in the books themselves, I believe they note that the maesters advice for girls not to get pregnant until they're 15, though this rule is frequently broken.

In short, I'd say there is far more reason (physically speaking alone) to question a 12 year old girl being sexually active with a 26 year old man besides "the social concepts we so despearatly cling to." Sex at 12-13 could cause trouble for a girls body later in life (cervical cancer), and lead to a more dangerous pregnancy. And as I stated before, there is a world of differnce between 12 and 15, when it comes to girls. At 15, the female body is basically done developing; at 12 it is just beginning to do so.

Still, my objections to the Sansa/ Sandor relationship actually have far less to do with age than with several other factors. My issues with the pairing are as follows:

1.The power imbalance. When Sansa and Sandor share most of their interactions, Sansa is a near helpless captive of the Lanisters; Sandor occupies a more prominant position as a member of Joffrey's kingsguard. And before anyone gets angry with me, I'm not blaming Sandor for the power imbalance; I realize that he is not the one holding Sansa captive. But the power imbalance is still there, it exists.

2. Sansa's emotional immaturity/ naivete. I'd say Sansa is still, in mind and heart, very much a child. By the end of ACoK, it could be argued that Sansa has gone through a ton and is thus more emotionally mature, but I see her as still very unformed (emotionally speaking) at this point. She really seems as though she is not ready for a sexual relationship at this point.

3. Sexual immaturity/ naivete. I won't dwell on this, since people are probably going to get annoyed, and say I'm being "too pc, applying modern day standards to medieval times," ect. However, the fact is that Sansa is a sexually inexperienced girl who has not so much as kissed a boy yet. Now, in AFFC, she seems to begin to start experiencing sexual desire when she fantasizes sexually, thinks about the marriage bed, etc. However, in AGoT and ACoK, she seems to be without adult sexual desires/ feelings yet. Of course, she is always getting "crushes," but this is always in a very asexual, romanticized fashion. Her thoughts about Joffrey and Loras Tyrell are more schoolgirl fantasies than adult desires. In contrast, Sandor is a grown man with an adult's sexual desires. He is also clearly sexually experienced.

His feelings for Sansa (from ACoK onwards) are pretty sexually charged. However, in that novel, it appears that the inexperienced Sansa is at times not even completely certain what it is that Sandor wants from her.

So those are basically my reasons for being grossed out by the relationship. And i'm not even sure that its the relationship itself that grosses me out, as the way people romanticize it. I guess a Sandor/ Sansa relationship could eventually be okay-- there is no longer the power imbalance, he has changed, and she is beginning to sexually develop.

[Myrish swan]

He was actually working up the nerve to rape her, which is interesting.

Well, if by interesting, you mean creepy and revolting, then I agree with you 100 percent.

Think on that. This apparent monster had to be dead drunk and terrified before he felt he was capable of molesting a young girl.

Are you responding to me here? Because in my post, I remember calling Sandor "a great character" and talking about the reasons why myself and others liked him so much. Maybe you're responding to someone elses post... still, if you're responding to me, I don't see where you got the "apparent monster" thing. Was it from my statement that I found the Sandor/ Sansa relationship gross?

He was drunk, scared, and beyond fucked up mentally from just having lived his life, and he still couldn't muster the will to rape her.

Think on that. This apparent monster had to be dead drunk and terrified before he felt he was capable of molesting a young girl.

You're looking at this in the wrong way.

I certainly agree with you that Sandor was drunk, frightened, and scared in the scene. However, I don't really understand your assertion that Sandor is worthy of praise because he "had to be dead drunk and terrified before he felt he was capable of molesting a young girl." So... Sansor should be praised for not raping a 12 year old? Or that he had to get drunk before being capable of raping a 12 year old? This is certainly an interesting way of looking at things.

Personally, I agree that Sandor never raped Sansa, and should not be blamed for doing so. However, the suggestion that he should be admired for not raping a 12 year old is ridiculous. Not raping a child is what any person with an ounce of compassion or decency would do. And I agree that Sandor is entitled to a great deal of pity for the many traumatic things that have happened to him; however, that does not give him an excuse to abuse others.

The fact is that Sandor went into Sansa's room, held a knife to her throat, and was considering raping her. He did not, which means-

a. Sandor is not a rapist. He should not be blamed for raping or hurting Sansa.

b. While not worthy of blame, Sandor should not be congratulated/ admired for not raping someone.

[Andeimir]

Our biological purpose is to reproduce and field offspring, therefore a greater risk of cervical cancer at a later age isn't a biological hindrance in itself. But I'm just being nit-picky, that's a damn good reason to avoid reproducing with 12 year old females, in case the moral and legal ones don't suffice ^_^

In all seriousness though, I think that Sandor's allure is the fact that while he is damaged and is certainly capable of acting 'bad', there's this lingering feeling that had it not been Gregor, he would have been 'good'. I loved the interactions between him and Sansa not due to romantic ideas but due to how much it showed us about him.

The way I perceive it atm, Sandor is willing to act good as long as there's a mental 'justification' for it. He's being protective of Sansa because he fancies here, he jumps and saves Loras because he gets to fight with his brother, he carries Arya to her brother because he can get gold for it.

Regarrding the much discussed rape, I don't think he intended to rape her. I should read the song scene again*, so I won't comment on the interaction itself, but when I've read Sandor telling Arya that he should've raped her sister it came off to me as him trying to anger her into killing him, so he doesn't have to suffer for too long before dying. Something the guy yells at a girl refusing to kill him which should anger her cannot be used as proof.

Nevertheless, I wouldn't want Sandor and Sansa to end up together. Partly due to the circumstances under which they've met and grown closer. Sansa was a child when he started being attracted to her and her fondness of him developed when she was held captive. What further interaction between them might occur, it mustn't be romantic. If Sandor is to redeem himself, which I find unlikely, it cannot through such unhealthy means.

*I will in fact read that scene again later today, and would either edit this post or add it to a further reply in case one is warranted.

edit:

I totally forgot about the knife, for example...

[trio]

I thought Sandor was older than that? Could be wrong though - I know it's one of those things that fans have had to calculate cos it's never explicitly stated.

Myrish Swan, great post. Pretty much summed up why for me it doesn't really matter what Sandor's motivations were. Sansa is a child not just in body but in mind, at this point.

Even later on, long after Sandor has left, she starts getting all romantic rose-tinted notions about Willas Tyrell who she's never even met. She's such a naive little thing.

And there was this fucked up man, who sees all of that beauty and naivete and innocence, and basically wants to simultaeneously embrace it and destroy it. He seems to want to be around it, but also wants to shake her out of it, cos he thinks it ridiculous in her situation.

I honestly don't know why people want her to be with someone like that. Even if he re-appears after getting some manners on the Island, he's still presumably going to be taciturn and morose. That's the thing - take away the brutality and I STILL don't want her with someone like that!

[Kariggi]

This may seem a little off, but in thinking through the scene again which I recently reread. There is another element.

Sandor is afraid and in a way seeking out the only safe place he has to go. Sansa is safe, she won't hurt him, in his violent world where he has to wear his 'armour' everywhere with everyone she is a safe haven. Sansa is almost a mother figure here, in a way reversing the roles as we think of them. Sandor is a terrified child seeking comfort in the only safe place he can find. Safe not being someone who can protect him so much as just someone who won't (or can't) hurt him. Her innocence naivety and lack of physical power coupled by a still delusional desire (if no longer belief) for the world to be right, just, fair, and not cruel are the traits one might associate with a figure of comfort and if not protection at least safety.

Sandor wants his mommy and Sansa is as close as the poor bastard can come, the bigger and tougher the man the less places they have to shed their tears.

[Alexia]

I thought Sandor was older than that? Could be wrong though - I know it's one of those things that fans have had to calculate cos it's never explicitly stated.

I'm not sure what age you mean by "that" but Sandor starts the series at 26 years old. We know this because it is specifically mentioned that he was 12 when he fought in the Sack of Kings Landing and the series starts 14 years after the rebellion.

[Jeejee]

We're mighty hung up on age these days. I have a great aunt who was married at 13, and my grandmothers were married at 15 and 16 and this wasn't hundreds of years ago or in another world. My own wife was 15 when we met, and I was active at the same age (and would have been earlier if the opportunity had presented itself). Beyond the social constructs we so desperately cling to there is no biological reason for humans to restrain their desires beyond the physical age at which their bodies can begin to procreate.

It's worth noting that Sansa is still considered a child by Westerosi customs - although she's reached puberty, 16 is the age of majority. (I can't recall if that's something stated outright in the books or a quote from GRRM. He's certainly said there's a gray area between menstruation and adulthood, and that many choose not to sleep with their wife until the girl reaches 16. This also explains Tyrion's repeated assertions that Sansa is a child.)

[BladeDancer]

I think that the Hound will end up serving Sansa. Sansa is one of the few people for ages to show him kindness and a degree of compassion. Once she reveals herself/escapes from Littlefinger's control, the Hound will reappear at a dramatic moment and save Sansa from disaster. Ironically the Hound will replace Lady as her bodyguard. :fencing:

Also I think it would represent a transformative journey for Sansa and Sandor's relationship, because Sandor grew up knowing that Knights could be monsters, and therefore being a Knight in itself says nothing about the honour or character of a man. This is in complete contrast to Sansa, who grew up believing that Knights were all honourable, courageous and chivalrous like in the songs.

So Sandor will follow Sansa because he wants to and feels fulfilled serving someone who deserves it and is kind to him.

That's my theory, We'll have to see what happens. :thumbsup:

[Huan]

Just re-reading GOT and am wondering if I'm the only one who thinks of Colin Firth's reindeer sweater in Bridget Jones' Diary when the Hound is wearing a "red woolen tunic with a leather dog's head sewn on the front" at the feast at the end of the first day of the Hand's tournament? I can't wait to see how they do this scene between Sandor and Sansa in the show.

[emmank]

Just re-reading GOT and am wondering if I'm the only one who thinks of Colin Firth's reindeer sweater in Bridget Jones' Diary when the Hound is wearing a "red woolen tunic with a leather dog's head sewn on the front" at the feast at the end of the first day of the Hand's tournament? I can't wait to see how they do this scene between Sandor and Sansa in the show.

Haha! Hilarious observation.... I have noticed the description before and thought inwardly how kind of *dumb* that must have looked. But now that you add that thought to this image, I will never be able to read that passage again without laughing.

This actually got me thinking about Colin Firth and his roles, specifically his role as Darcy. I adore P&P and Jane Eyre and Wuthering Heights and Persuasion .... you know, all the classic chick lit. Darcy and Rochester are universally beloved by many women the world over, even though they are moody, rude, and flawed characters who fall in love and achieve some form of redemption. At one point in Jane Eyre, Jane is even worried that Rochester is going to rape her (after their failed wedding) and he continually exploits her naivete, even as he practically worships her innocence.

I'm interested to hear from those of you who dislike the pairing of Sandor and Sansa. Does any of this earlier literature also rankle you, particularly when the heroes and heroines are not socially or emotionally equal when their relationships/interactions begin? I'm very curious about this.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

This actually got me thinking about Colin Firth and his roles, specifically his role as Darcy. I adore P&P and Jane Eyre and Wuthering Heights and Persuasion .... you know, all the classic chick lit. Darcy and Rochester are universally beloved by many women the world over, even though they are moody, rude, and flawed characters who fall in love and achieve some form of redemption. At one point in Jane Eyre, Jane is even worried that Rochester is going to rape her (after their failed wedding) and he continually exploits her naivete, even as he practically worships her innocence.

I'm interested to hear from those of you who dislike the pairing of Sandor and Sansa. Does any of this earlier literature also rankle you, particularly when the heroes and heroines are not socially or emotionally equal when their relationships/interactions begin? I'm very curious about this.

A thoughtful question, and one that probably deserves its own topic (see also: the literature thread).

I agree that the "relationship" between The Hound and Sansa does have literary parallels, and the ones you suggest are not too far off (except Darcy and Rochester aren't warriors, then again no one really fights in Victorian lit). But I think that GRRM builds these parallels precisely in order to deconstruct them - to show that they are unrealistic and sugarcoated. You want the troubled, brooding warrior seeking vengeance for a lost childhood to have romantic feelings for the innocent virgin? Well, he's probably going to be 1) not handsome 2) not young 3) not mentally stable at all, and he's probably going to be bad news for the girl - not her dream man.

So that's why although I don't dislike either character, I am not a fan of the match at all. It would be... strange for the relationship to be built up, shown by the author to be inherently flawed from its concept, and then somehow still have a happily ever after situation occur. I think it is realistic that the two of them still think of one another after they separate. With Sansa, she thinks of Sandor with equal parts dread and curiosity whereas with the Hound it's equal parts anger, lust, and guilt. However I don't think these thoughts are indicative that any future meeting would be a romantic one - I think the characters know it's a bad idea as much as the reader does.

[shooter]

I think the conflict within Sandor is that he hates what knights are, but loves what they stand for. Sansa is the maid in distress that the knights in the tales are supposed to rescue and help. If he had done nothing to help Sansa then that would make him just as bad as the knights he hates. Even though he has killed many people, I think he is trying to prove to himself that it is possible for good deeds to be done in the world.

And I think Brienne is a perfect blend of Sansa and Sandor - Innocent on the inside, ugly on the outside. She is the one who is going to (if she lives) prove Sandor wrong, even if he never finds out. Brienne is honest, honorable and innocent, the three traits that make would make a good knight.

[trio]

Well I've always thought Heathcliff was a total prick but I have no inherent objections to any of the pairings you just mentioned. Even though there are inequalities in power in some of them.

Because the females in them weren't ELEVEN.

Sandor, however, has the hots for someone who presumably looks just like my tall and lovely 11 year old niece. Who acts all cool and "Whatever" and wants to kiss the head off Justin Bieber, but who still crawls into Mom's bed when she has a bed dream.

However I don't think these thoughts are indicative that any future meeting would be a romantic one - I think the characters know it's a bad idea as much as the reader does.

Agree - I think it'd be a strange ending for Sansa, tbh. She's not in love with him. She's not in love with anyone.

[Alexia]

Agree - I think it'd be a strange ending for Sansa, tbh. She's not in love with him. She's not in love with anyone.

No, but she does have a crush on him. It remains to be seen how said crush shall develop (though I doubt it would be anything so sappy as eternal love).