Old Nan Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 It might be kind of funny if the U.S. embassies are overrun and forced to evacuate to Iraq, of all places. Who'd of thunk it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galactus Posted January 28, 2011 Author Share Posted January 28, 2011 To be fair, it's not just the US government who are being mealy-mouthed about their support. The Euro leaders seem to be just as wishy-washy in their support, there's a lot of "please be nice and please switch the internet back on" but not a lot else so far.Pretty much what Bildt said, (actually what he said was something on the lines of "A prosperous society isn't built by shutting down the internet but by opening up society.")Still a far cry from Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Iceman of the North Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 It might be kind of funny if the U.S. embassies are overrun and forced to evacuate to Iraq, of all places. Who'd of thunk it.That's a constant fear for the US Ambassador in Rome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 To be fair, it's not just the US government who are being mealy-mouthed about their support. The Euro leaders seem to be just as wishy-washy in their support, there's a lot of "please be nice and please switch the internet back on" but not a lot else so far.It's exactly what you'd expect them to do. The bitching about Western reaction to this is incoherent. Complaints when we interfere, then complain when we don't once the revolution starts. And yet when the Iran election blew up, people were praising them for staying the fuck out of it. It's just ...Western nations are, publicly anyway, gonna stay the fuck out of this because politically that's the smart thing to do. Wait till one side comes out on top and then talk to them. The US especially is in a nasty spot since they've been supporting Mubarak for ages now.And in the end, the public announcement are meaningless. It's all bullshit diploma-speak. Especially considering the Obama administration's stated policy of toning down public castigation and ramping up private pressure. A policy that's been much more effective then Bush's out loud condemnations.Also, the reports of national guard troops being sent to Egypt are about them going to reinforce the more or less permanent international force way out in the middle of nowhere in the Sinai peninsula. They've been there for ages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 Stay classy FoxNews:The main US cable news networks had given Egypt minimal coverage so far this week, partly because of the time difference but also because of the president's state of the union address on Tuesday night absorbing so much energy.That has all changed today, with the the extraordinary scenes from Egypt filling America's TV screens – even if the early morning bulletins were more interested in Charlie Sheen's hernia.The exception has been Fox News, where coverage has been more muted. "You probably don't give a lot of time thinking about Egypt," a Fox News presenter suggested about an hour ago, before explaining that "groups linked to al-Qaida" were in danger of taking over the government in Cairo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tormund Ukrainesbane Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 US Government: First Amendment: lolwut? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 I'd say "Fuck Lierbermann and Collins" but let's be honest, I'd just be repeating myself at this point. The internet bill has always been stupid and this incident has just been further proof. Here's a nice graph of Egyptian internet traffic in the last while: http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2011/1/28/1296208371321/graph.jpgYeah, that's what I want the government to be able to do!Of course, the chances of that information actually making it to the american public are slim, considering the mostly shoddy reporting going on. No offices in Cairo for most of these agencies.Although I will cut them some slack considering from reports, it appears any western journalist seen in the streets is getting beaten and/or arrested by the government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Iceman of the North Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 According to AP, an Obama administration official says the US will review its $1.5bn in aid to Egypt based on events unfolding in the country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tormund Ukrainesbane Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 The world is getting turned on its headThousands now protesting in Jordan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commodore Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 It just seems naive to think that a third world country will transition from dictatorship to democracy organically just because a power vacuum is created. Not saying it can't happen, but is it likely? What are some historical examples? Any steps we try to take to ensure a democratic transition is characterized as colonialism/occupation/oppression by Tormond's ilk, even though that's how we ensured a democratic transition in Japan and Germany after WWII. OTOH, I don't see the value in supporting Mubarak at this point either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tormund Ukrainesbane Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 What are some historical examples? The United fucking States. 1776. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S John Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 Yea but we had just won a war against Japan and Germany. We are not at war with Egypt.Personally, I'm really coming around on isolationism. Let the Egyptians sort it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 The United fucking States. 1776.Where people were so free, black men only got 3/5ths of a vote and women didn't get any! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Iceman of the North Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 It just seems naive to think that a third world country will transition from dictatorship to democracy organically just because a power vacuum is created. Not saying it can't happen, but is it likely? What are some historical examples?Most of Eastern Europe twenty years ago. Egypt shouldn't be that much worse off now than for instance Bulgaria and Romania was back then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samalander Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 Thanks for the link, Shryke. Kind of confirms why the Israeli hawks have been repeating the same line over and over again about the MB.1) The fact you keep calling us Israeli hawks just means you have not had the chance to actually encounter a genuine Israeli hawk.2) It may be an oversimplification, but... Aren't the MB in Egypt Sunni Muslim? Isn't Al-Queda Sunni Muslim? Don't they have a kind of on-off rapport going (global Islam, anyone)?3) I've had a lot of direct and indirect insults hurled at me this thread, but this has crossed the line! Insinuating I get my facts from Fox news! :tantrum: I demand an apology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 You can't complain about being called a Fox News reader and then use the term "global islam" seriously in the same post. It's a crime against irony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galactus Posted January 28, 2011 Author Share Posted January 28, 2011 Most of Eastern Europe twenty years ago. Egypt shouldn't be that much worse off now than for instance Bulgaria and Romania was back then.Technically those would be second-world :PThe ROK and ROC would be better examples. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samalander Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 Most of Eastern Europe twenty years ago. Egypt shouldn't be that much worse off now than for instance Bulgaria and Romania was back then.Give me one example of an Arab country, that had a revolution against an opressive regime and embraced Democracy after that (without a foreign occupying force). Their common denominator is Islam, and that is what they embrace. Given that an open liberal economy is anathema to the MB, should they come to power, I don't see them making the lives of the Egyptian people better. All they could do to stay in power is stir up hate against some imaginary enemy...(gee, who could that be?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 A good item from the Guardian Egypt-Live-Blog on Democracy and Egypt looking forward:4.56pm: Here are some of the best bits from the live Q&A on the Middle East protests, which the Guardian website hosted today. Answering the questions was Brian Whitaker, former Middle East editor and current editor with CIF.Q. A question about an Eqyptian democracy... is there a basis for hope? is there a political culture that can step up to represent the people and what role will youth play in the new landscape?Brian's Answer: Egypt already has the infrastructure to turn into a working democracy -- elected parliament, long-established political parties, etc. The problem is the the NDP has monopolised this system for a very long time.So the transition to a working democracy would not be all that difficult, though I would expect it to be a somewhat flawed democracy for some time - maybe like some of the East European or Latin American countries.One problem is that most of the opposition parties are just as hidebound as the regime. The younger "Facebook generation" doesn't seem to have much interest in them and prefers to do things in its own way. Youth movements are going to become more and more important, and they are a very hopeful sign.Q. What are the chances that all this could be repeated in Syria?Brian's answer: I was discussing that with an Arab friend yesterday. We both felt that it would be very difficult at present in Syria to organise the kind of protests seen in Tunisia and Egypt. One thing you need for it to happen is a civil society structure of some kind, whether it's trade unions, opposition parties or NGOs, plus a lot of internet users. I don't think Syria has that. Instead, it as a very proficient secret police.That said, I would expect the Syrian regime to be very scared. Yemenis have told me of the panic in the Marxist regime in the PDRY following the revolution in Romania in 1989 -- they feared it could happen to them. I would expect similar fears in the Syrian regime.Who knows? Could they be the ones who decide to reform rather than waiting to be toppled?Q. How likely do you think it is that these uprisings will drive Egypt & Tunisia towards democracy? Is it likely that these situations will descend into sectarian or ethnic conflict as we seen in Kyrgyzstan last year?Brian's answer: Adapting to democracy will be a lot easier in Tunisia and Egypt than it was in Iraq. There are no major ethnic issues; Egypt does have something of a sectarian problem but it is not insurmountable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galactus Posted January 28, 2011 Author Share Posted January 28, 2011 Give me one example of an Arab country, that had a revolution against an opressive regime and embraced Democracy after that (without a foreign occupying force). Their common denominator is Islam, and that is what they embrace. Given that an open liberal economy is anathema to the MB, should they come to power, I don't see them making the lives of the Egyptian people better. All they could do to stay in power is stir up hate against some imaginary enemy...(gee, who could that be?)An open liberal economy is also anathema to traditional chinese, japanese and korean culture....Yeah.Being opposed to a liberal economy is kind of what "traditional culture" implies. Liberal democracies aren't "traditional" in that sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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