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The Middle-eastern riots

Galactus

By Galactus,
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Shryke Council Member

Shryke

Posted
Posted

Im not painting Fatah as perfect or innocent, but they did hand Hamas the rods of power, which Hamas immidiately use to selectively budget organizations based on Hamas affiliation. And yes, there are no mitigating circumstances. If the opposition is hard or bad you crack down on it, you arrest people who broke the law or refuse to abide by it. If you renounce elections and ban the opposition alltogether (and let's not even go to murder, torture and mutilation), then there is no defence for it.

No, they didn't. Lower level members of Fatah refused to take orders from Hamas, the US began pressuring Fatah to take on Hamas and hinted or promised they would support them when they did and Fatah did begin attacks on Hamas. The whole thing was a clusterfuck.

And again, this is probably the most important point in any democracy, when the losing party willing gives up power. When that doesn't happen, the entire system breaks down.

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jurble Council Member

jurble

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If the current Egyptian government does collapse, and an Islamic Caliphate is not on the horizon, I am also willing to put my name forward for the position of Pharaoh. My platform would be enslaving the Jews to build us some pyramids or something, of course.

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TrueMetis Council Member

TrueMetis

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If the current Egyptian government does collapse, and an Islamic Caliphate is not on the horizon, I am also willing to put my name forward for the position of Pharaoh. My platform would be enslaving the Jews to build us some pyramids or something, of course.

Well at least then it would have actually happened. :D

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Yoadm Council Member

Yoadm

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You are using mitigating circumstances to explain why various countries tried to undermine Hamas's victory to explain why there are no mitigating circumstances to Hamas decision to turn its back on democracy. Makes sense?

Various countries demanded Hamas adher to to agreements signed before it was elected, which it declared null and void. Those were recognition of Israel and the Oslo accords. In other words, renouncing the vow to destroy Israel and agree to peacefull negotiation. The fact that it rejected it out of hand resulted in the pressure. Hamas de-facto chose to give up support from the west in order to continue persuing its murderous agenda. Furthermore, the reason why there are no mitigating circumstances, as I said in the previous post, is that there are certain levels of 'response' to a non-cooperative or not totally cooperative opposition. Jailing non-cooperative members, even armed combat against them. The fact that Hamas went right to the level of renouncing elections alltogether has no mitigating circumstances. Add to that the fact that Hamas did not act democratically from the start, which is one of the reasons Fatah was uncooperative.

Some interesting insights that might be relevant to our discussion:

'Adel Bin Zayd Al-Tarifi,

a Saudi researcher at the European Research Institute, University of

Birmingham, U.K. presents a scathing critique of the Hamas

leadership and its willingness to forgo international aid and live off

"wild thyme and olives."

It was only in the past two years that Hamas agreed

to participate in elections. Before that, they opposed the apparatus of

the PA and the Oslo Accords that brought it about, even to the point

of not running in elections.

"No definition of democracy of which I am aware includes [room

for] an armed party that touts violence as a [legitimate] political

means and disregards the country's constitution, which is then

allowed to enter into the elections. This contradicts the most basic

principles of democracy.

"In other words, Hamas sees itself as a jihad movement, and its

participation in the elections and in government and the other formal

expressions of democracy are nothing but a one-off [occurrence],

necessitated by the conditions in the Palestinian arena. So where,

then, is the change for the better that [is purported] to have occurred

with Hamas?"

http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/pdf/memri_310506e.pdf

Ismael Haniyeh, the ascendant ruler of Gaza, officially denied accusations by the PLO and some Palestinian media outlets that Hamas intended to establish an Islamic emirate.[1] However, it soon became clear that Hamas maintained control of Gaza’s predominantly Sunni population through a combination of violence, authoritarian rule, and Islamism. In fact, in the two years since the 2007 coup, the Gaza Strip has steadily exhibited the characteristics of “Talibanization” -- a process mirroring the rise of the Taliban in Afghanistan in the 1990s whereby the Islamist organization imposed strict rules on women; discouraged activities commonly associated with Western or Christian culture; oppressed non-Muslim minorities; imposed sharia law; and deployed religious police to enforce these laws.

Hamas’s tyrannical rule in Gaza has since presented something of a liability for its parent organization the Muslim Brotherhood, which has sought in recent times to whitewash its image internationally and to portray itself as a reform movement committed to peaceful and democratic change.

While Hamas attempted to explain the violence in the context of its paramilitary war with the rival Fatah faction, PCHR reported attacks against private domiciles, hospitals, and ambulances. So, while internecine rivalry accounted for some violence, it became clear to observers that Hamas was guilty of gross violations of human rights. All told, the June civil war claimed the lives of at least 161 Palestinians, including 11 women and 7 children. More than 700 Palestinians were wounded.[7]

After the war ended, Hamas announced on television the “end of secularism and heresy in the Gaza Strip.”[8] Hamas then began openly to mistreat the minority Christian community, mostly Greek Orthodox, which had co-existed with Gaza’s predominantly Sunni population for centuries. On June 14, masked gunmen attacked the Rosary Sisters School and the Latin Church in Gaza City with rocket-propelled grenades. They destroyed the cross, Bibles, computers, and other property.[9] Later that month, Hamas kidnapped Professor Sana al-Sayegh, a teacher at Palestine University in Gaza City, and reportedly forced her to convert to Islam.[10]

By one count, there were more than 50 attacks against Christian targets in the aftermath of the Hamas coup, including barbershops, music stores, and a U.N. school.[13] Christians increasingly feared they would be forced to submit to Islamic law or leave the Gaza Strip.[14]

In February 2008, gunmen blew up the YMCA library in the Gaza Strip. They kidnapped guards, looted the offices, stole a vehicle, and destroyed some 8,000 books.[15] That attack came days after a Hamas “modesty patrol” attacked a Christian youth’s car after he drove home a female classmate.[16] In May, unidentified gunmen again bombed the Rosary Sister’s school.[17] In both May and June, Islamists broke into the El-Manara School in Gaza, detained and beat two guards, and stole a bus.[18] In July, three masked men broke into the home of Constantine Dabbagh, Executive Secretary of the Near East Council of Churches. The men beat him and his wife before stealing money and jewelry.[19] The practice of Christianity, according to one reporter, was now largely “happening privately or in homes.”[20]

Human Rights Watch documented numerous Hamas abuses against Gaza civilians during Operation Cast Lead, including the execution of 32 political rivals, shooting of 49 persons in the legs, and breaking the limbs of a 73 others.[30] Fatah confirmed much of this by releasing a list of 181 persons “killed, shot or maimed by the de facto government.”[31]

As of late July 2009, the Hamas interior ministry issued a warning that it will hunt down all “collaborators and traitors in an effort to achieve ‘total security.’”[32]

For Palestinians whose rights were violated, there was little redress. As the PA judicial system in Gaza collapsed,[33] sharia courts became the primary arbiters of disputes. The courts, presided over by Hamas-appointed judges, wielded Islamic jurisprudence to make judgments. However, as Amnesty International noted, the judges lacked “adequate independence, impartiality, training, oversight, and public accountability.”[34]

No Free Press

A month after the coup, Hamas briefly prevented the distribution of Fatah-aligned newspapers, including al-Ayyam and al-Hayat al-Jadida.[47] Hamas also jailed some of the papers’ circulation officials, and pulled the plug on pro-Fatah television and radio stations.[48]

International media also suffered. Hamas gunmen attacked two cameramen from the Abu Dhabi satellite television channel and stormed the Gaza bureau of the al-Arabiya satellite channel in August.[49] Hamas gunmen also detained a German television crew after it shot footage portraying Hamas in a negative light.[50]

In an effort to gain control, Hamas announced a ban on stories that could “cause harm to national unity.”[51]In May 2008, press reports indicated that Hamas would block websites deemed “unfit according to Islamic rules.”[57] Two months later, Hamas officially banned three Palestinian newspapers run out of the West Bank – al-Quds, al-Ayyam and al-Hayat. Hamas also stormed the offices of a Palestinian news agency, WAFA, and arrested a German cameraman.[58] The cameraman was reportedly tortured while he was detained.[59]http://www.currenttrends.org/research/detail/the-talibanization-of-gaza-a-liability-for-the-muslim-brotherhood

No, they didn't. Lower level members of Fatah refused to take orders from Hamas, the US began pressuring Fatah to take on Hamas and hinted or promised they would support them when they did and Fatah did begin attacks on Hamas. The whole thing was a clusterfuck.

And again, this is probably the most important point in any democracy, when the losing party willing gives up power. When that doesn't happen, the entire system breaks down.

The entire system did not work before the previous election either. Hamas as an opposition hardly listened to Fatah at all, had its own armed forces, and did whatever it wanted (which was, pretty much blowing up busses and attacking opposing armed groups). Still, Fatah held elections, and I would not have justified it renouncing elections based on this. I would have called it an excuse, just like I call Hamas's 2007 pustch.

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Horza Council Member

Horza

Posted
Posted

Egypt is exploding!

According to the guardian liveblog 40000 people just over ran the NDP headquarters in Mansoura, and police are starting to side with the protesters.

Says twitter, sayeth the Grauniad liveblog.

Oh god, Tony Fucking Blair at Davos dishing up homilies. Fuck off you walking corpse (yes folks this is Horza drinkposting: all rage all politics all the time).

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