Yoadm Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 The iranian revolution was a lot more complicated than that, it was not a purely islamist thing any more than the Russian Revolution was a purely Bolshevik thing. The secularists were in on it because a lot of the people involve were communists, for instance.Indeed, and those seculars were then persecuted once the Islamic revolution took root. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoadm Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Wasn't the government trying to shut down Hezballah's tv network?Yes, thcally elected government chose to do so. And Hezbollah responded in a way that showed that it would accept the democratic game as long as it played into its hands. If not, then they have no problem using violence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 1) Bad example. First off, it's too soon to discount these guys. They just had a major falling out with the current government over the fact, that among other things, they are criminal murderers and don't really want the government to allow that to be published officialy. So in the next few months we'll see what happens. Second off, they already run Lebanon. Why would they need the burden of this "government" thing? My god, if they were the government, next time we bombed the shit out of Lebanon it might be called a legitemate war! No, no. So much better to call the shots in the country, and be accountable for nothing.Well the new PM is Hezbollah-picked so we'll see what happens but I suspect the answer is 'nothing'. And if they did try to enact fundamentalist law, 1) there'd be civil war since their christian allies would turn against them and 2) I suspect Syria would step in to stop it. I know Israel doesn't like Syria, mostly with good reason, but one can't deny that they are a secular power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoadm Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Wait, so the elected government chose to act undemocratically, and then when Hezballah acts undemocratically in response, it's evidence that once they gain democratic power they will act undemocratically, which would be a departure and indeed, much worse for the Lebanese people than the democratic Hairiri government?You guys are fucking hilarious!Who said it is not democratic? The issue was of Hezbollah's military telecommunications system, which the government sought to shut down. On May 6, 2008 the government attempted to disable Hezbollah's communications network. Hezbollah operates an extensive fixed-line telecommunications network, in parallel to the government owned one. This wasn't an action against free speech (they did not try to shut down Al-Manar, for instance), but a military aspect of Hezbollah's apparatus. Even if the government chose to shut down Hezbollah as a military power, there is nothing undemocratic about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoadm Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Also, it's okay that Hairiri's government shut down the station because they are democratically elected? Weren't you and Salamander complaining that these groups use Democracy to get to the top and then use their power undemocratically? I'M CONFUSED.I cant blame you, since you misunderstand what the government wanted to shut down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 All the sides in Lebanon have a long and glorious tradition of ignoring the democratic process, it seems a fools errand to try to figure out who started it first. Now as a Westerner I do in fact support a pro-Western government in Lebanon, but I won't pretend that they are any more committed to democracy then any other group. And none of the groups in Lebanon are going to be friends to Israel so I'm not sure why the fact that its Hezbollah instead of someone else in charge makes that big a difference. Any deviation too far from the status quo is sure to bring back civil war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoadm Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Since when is limiting freedom of speech and assembly undemocratic? WTF? That's not what the governmented attempted to do. It wanted to shut down Hezbollah's military telecommunications network, not the Al-manar TV channel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 The issue at hand is that Hezballah is gaining democratic power in order to abuse it. I'm trying to establish exactly what you have stated (and I trust your opinion on this): that Lebanon's government is filled with people who act undemocratically.Anyway, I've stated my case on this one.I know. It just seemed like everyone here was arguing over who would be 'better' choice to be in charge and defend democracy when the truth is that all the potential parties are vicious, corrupt, nationalist groups that in truth only care about promoting their ethnic group in the country. And thus to me the whole argument is moot since if you really like democracy you shouldn't like any of them and if you really like secular governments you shouldn't care since they all would be.ETA: And of course none of them like Israel. Some might be willing to bribed by the US into not doing much beyond threats and denouncing everything Israel does but that's about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoadm Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Sorry buddy, but if I ran my own little communist LAN and the government shut it down, I'd call it limiting freedom of speech.If you created a telecommunications network without government authority that was used to view air-ports, direct your own radar stations, and used for your very own military forces, then this has nothing to do with freedom of speech, and if the government wants to shut it down, it has every right to do so, especially if that government is elected. Hezbollah initiated violence in reponse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KAH Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 1) Democratic governments depend on votes. Voters hold their lives in high esteem. Thus when Democracies have conflicting political goals, their drive is towards mediation and compromise, rather than conflict and war (not to mention all the economic ties they have and the incentive for business to keep running smoothly).2) Let me get this straight: You are saying that when and if Syria and Jordan become Democracies, they will be less friendly towards Israel and more prone to war with us?Sometimes, mediation and compromise only take you so far. And voters can also be whipped into a nationalistic frenzy, when mediation and compromise does not produce the desired goals. How much economic ties do Israel have with it's immediate neighbours, anyway? I don't see why Syria and Jordan should immediately become anymore friendly towards Israel if the voters get their way. You are occupying Syrian territory, and the territory the powers that be in Jordan gave up was hardly supported by a democratic mandate - and Jordan has a huge Palestinian population to boot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoadm Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Even if you were a fair assessment, it's not like Hairiri's government is this bastion of free speech. FFS, they threw some kids in jail for saying that that minister was a "snake". I mean, really? You're defending these people?Did I defend them? No. Don't worry, I won't dare defend a pro-western government so you can relax. I think they are corrupt, trying to suck up to Syria and the US at the same time. They are inefectual and are not the answer for a united Lebanon. But I was responding to a member's claim about democracy and Islamic movements. Though the Hariri government is corrupt, it doesn't have its own military apparatus separate from the state, and generally adherred to the Taif agreement.ETA: Also, the US has militias who actively patrol the border between the US and mexico. They also have their own cameras set up. Yes, and they also have tanks and air-craft. They also have a whole military apparatus. That does not give every private citizen the right to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteHaven Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Clearly everyone has become an expert in Middle-Eastern politics.Meh most of the time I do not agree with Salamander but this time I do - at least his view on Turkey. Which one of you has been there in the last...say 3 years? No one? Oh who would have guessed that.I could tell you guys some things which are happening in Turkey, things that happened to my relatives - but I guess you won't believe me since your modern "liberal" media tells you otherwise. Erdogan and the AKP are transforming Turkey to a Radical Islamic Stronghold. Suffice to say that last week ~ 30 children wanted to wear their headscarf in the elementary school because they wanted to show their religion. Of course the school director refused them entry to school and of course our governement kicked him out. Oh yeah...and lots of people started demonstrating for their "basic" right. Stunningly, all of them yelled "Allahu ekhber, Allahu ekhber, Allahu ekhber". Ehh but no worries, these guys are ALL democrats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Clearly everyone has become an expert in Middle-Eastern politics.Meh most of the time I do not agree with Salamander but this time I do - at least his view on Turkey. Which one of you has been there in the last...say 3 years? No one? Oh who would have guessed that.Actually my mom and aunt just got back from Istanbul last week, they're both even bigger liberal, secular American-Jews than I am, and they didn't notice anything that even remotely suggested the country was any different from the way it used to be or that they ever felt any more out of place then if they had been in Greece, Cyprus, or any other country in the area.So everyone has their anecdotal stories, hurray!And I'm not quite an 'expert' on middle-eastern politics but I almost followed that path before I decided to focus my graduate studies on American domestic issues and I still keep up on it, especially Lebanon since I have a number of Lebanese-American friends.ETA:Well, shit just got real in Egypt: two people have died in Suez, rumors of live ammunition being used on the protesters. We'll see if anything comes of it, but, in a country of ~80 million, protests 'in the thousands' do not impress me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cantabile Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Thousands is pretty impressive when you take into account that only a small percentage of the overall people that share the sentiment are going to physically protest.It's always sad when things result in death and violence, but there's not really any other way for this to play out. Egypt is in need of some major changes, and a little social upheaval is required. I just hope the protesters manage to come out on top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteHaven Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Actually my mom and aunt just got back from Istanbul last week, they're both even bigger liberal, secular American-Jews than I am, and they didn't notice anything that even remotely suggested the country was any different from the way it used to be or that they ever felt any more out of place then if they had been in Greece, Cyprus, or any other country in the area.So everyone has their anecdotal stories, hurray!I'm interested, where did they stay? Did they ever go to Fatih? Did they visit the Fatih mosque? Yes, Istanbul is the most liberal city in my home country, but in some places you feel like you're walking down a street in Iran. Also, if you go to other cities, Konya for examlpe you won't now that you're in Turkey anymore. They have big wall-ads in the language of the Prophet, there. That's just creeping me out.But yeah, Americans and Europeans know everything better then people who actually come from the country which is the in the focus of a discussion. I know. I exactly know which path this discussion is going to take...and somehow I am sick and tired of explaining things to people I'll never meet in my life.*vanishes* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thelonious Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Ah, the old stars n' stripes seal of approval, administered seemingly at random to world leaders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Iceman of the North Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 We'll see if anything comes of it, but, in a country of ~80 million, protests 'in the thousands' do not impress me.There's protests in at least 15 cities. Given that illegal demonstrations in Egypt seldom manage to gather more than a 100 people, a rough estimate of 15 to 20.000 in Cairo alone, is nothing to sneeze at. The fact that the police have not been able to break up the demonstrations some 10 hours since they begun is also telling.What remains to be seen is if these demonstrations will continue in the days to come, or if it was limited to just today. If it continues throughout the week, my prediction is that the crowds will increase significantly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samalander Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 The funny thing about Hezballah winning more power (democratically) in Lebanon is that if Hezballah did this, it would be evidence that they were antidemocratic. Hezballah would never need to do this. When they give the word for their people to take the streets, there will be no clashes. All the police/military will simply melt away. They will turn tail and vanish. What kind of self respecting country operates like that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 There's protests in at least 15 cities. Given that illegal demonstrations in Egypt seldom manage to gather more than a 100 people, a rough estimate of 15 to 20.000 in Cairo alone, is nothing to sneeze at. The fact that the police have not been able to break up the demonstrations some 10 hours since they begun is also telling.What remains to be seen is if these demonstrations will continue in the days to come, or if it was limited to just today. If it continues throughout the week, my prediction is that the crowds will increase significantly.True. But the protests in Iran in 2009 were significantly larger and nothing really came of those except that possibly there was a behind the scenes coup and the Revolutionary Guard now has power instead of the clerics. Keeping that in mind I doubt that these protests will fare any better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cantabile Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 There're reports that the Egyptian president's son and family have fled to the UK due to the protests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.