Jon Snow Meets Undead Cat

[Lady Blackfish]

I just find it entirely to be in Catelyn's character to wish death upon Jon after all her kids have been killed. All of her kids are dead, but Ned's bastard is alive. She would resent him more than ever.

If she were alive I think she would resent him, but I don't think that equates to wanting him dead. I think what she said at Bran's bedside qualifies as "not in my right mind" behavior, said in the heat of the moment when she had nobody to blame. In this case she has enough people to blame, because she actually knows who the perpetrators are, so she doesn't need Jon as a target for her anger. Now that she is

dead and resurrected, there's a case to be made for her thought process being less checked, but also for her field of concerns being strictly confined to direct perpetrators against her family.

Not having the meeting itself though I think is wasting a great moment of dramatic tension.

Honestly I think that ship sailed when he made her a rotting zombie.

[mcbigski]

I predict a positive re-union between Jon and Cat. We still don't know the extent of Cat's health. I don't think she's a walking corpse. She recognizes people. Anyway I think the re-union will happen; it'll be tense at first but then be positive.

UnCat is probably an even better choice than Val for a wife for Jon, as far as solidifying the North goes.

[Ser Balon Swann]

UnCat is probably an even better choice than Val for a wife for Jon, as far as solidifying the North goes.

I don't really think Cat is an option for solidifying anything. Almost anyone in a position of real power would look at her as a monster/abomination. The Brotherhood only follows her because Lord Beric essentially passed his leadership on to her.

[Robb the Lord]

Jon vs. UnCat FTW!

But seriously I would love to see them meet. I am not sure how Cat would react. I guess with loathing since she belives him to be Ned's son by another woman. I don't think she would be aggressive though, he is not an enemy nor has he done anything to get on her radar as far as I can tell. Jon would probably react with disgust and maybe pity. Hehe, I could totally see them staring each other grimacing for about five minutes before saying anything.

[brumFTW]

I honestly don't see this becoming an issue, but I suspect that Stoneheart would not be too kind to Lord Snow. Remember that when Blackfish is offered the chance to take the black and told that Ned's bastard is commander he assumes that it was a Lannister plot. Ultimately it's hard to tell, little has been revealed about Stonehearts objectives, besides a desire to punish Freys, Lannisters and Boltons.

[Axon]

Bottom line is that she ain't gonna catch Jon alone. He's a lot harder to kill these days, being Lord Commander and all. In fact, he'd be the favorite in this particular slugfest, and I don't mean because of individual skill.

[Horatz]

Bottom line is that she ain't gonna catch Jon alone. He's a lot harder to kill these days, being Lord Commander and all. In fact, he'd be the favorite in this particular slugfest, and I don't mean because of individual skill.

Not to mention that Cat meeting Jon would most likely also mean that Thoros and Mel meet, which would end the story.

[Happy Ent]

I guess with loathing since she belives him to be Ned's son by another woman.

As has been said thousands of time, and made explicit in the text, she does not loathe him for existing. She would have forgiven Ned dozens of bastards, and she tried to love the boy, etc….

She loathes that he was raised at Winterfell as a trueborn child. This is a political insult to House Tully, pissing on the thousands of Riverrun commoners that had to give their lives in the pact that sold Catelyn to House Stark, not to mention a personal insult to her as a wife. It’s just not done.

[Faint]

UnCat is probably an even better choice than Val for a wife for Jon, as far as solidifying the North goes.

I love how given the author, I can't simply dismiss this idea out of hand. Although, still, I find the concept highly unlikely and man, weird on so many Freudian levels that I'm just going to let the subject lie low for now.

Not to mention that Cat meeting Jon would most likely also mean that Thoros and Mel meet, which would the story.

If nothing else, I think the Thoros and Melisandre meeting would answer a lot of questions.

As has been said thousands of time, and made explicit in the text, she does not loathe him for existing. She would have forgiven Ned dozens of bastards, and she tried to love the boy, etc….She loathes that he was raised at Winterfell as a trueborn child. This is a political insult to House Tully, pissing on the thousands of Riverrun commoners that had to give their lives in the pact that sold Catelyn to House Stark, not to mention a personal insult to her as a wife. It’s just not done.

Is anyone in agreement that if does turn out that R + L = J, Ned made an almost unforgivable mistake not telling his wife that? I don't care what he promised; if Jon really isn't his son, I see no purpose in not revealing this information to Catelyn. It's not as if she was going to tell anybody. Hiding the fact from Jon, although cruel as well, is more understandable.

[Horatz]

If nothing else, I think the Thoros and Melisandre meeting would answer a lot of questions.

It won't happen until very late in the series. :|

Trust me.

Is anyone in agreement that if does turn out that R + L = J, Ned made an almost unforgivable mistake not telling his wife that? I don't care what he promised; if Jon really isn't his son, I see no purpose in not revealing this information to Catelyn. It's not as if she was going to tell anybody. Hiding the fact from Jon, although cruel as well, is more understandable.

I think it's extremely cruel, especially giving how much he seems to care for her otherwise.

Sorry guy, if you can't tell your wife you really should get over yourself.

Maybe this was a part of his promise to Lyannna (maybe that's the reason he recalls it so often because it goes against everything he believes about marriage), but still....

[Faint]

Maybe this was a part of his promise to Lyannna (maybe that's the reason he recalls it so often because it goes against everything he believes about marriage), but still....

I almost accept this as fact because it's the only thing that makes sense and basically you know that Ned wouldn't break his word -- but even so, the end result is so disastrous that it's almost unforgivable that he didn't break his promise.

I've always thought Ned's honor has caused much more harm than good, which really subverts a lot of fantasy tropes.

[Horatz]

Which is why I said that he should've gotten over himself while he had the chance...

BTW: I wonder what would happen were she to comes into the AoE of the curse the Others have placed on the area after the wall. ;)

[Happy Ent]

I've always thought Ned's honor has caused much more harm than good, which really subverts a lot of fantasy tropes.

In particular, it causes harm to others. Cat. Jon. Just so that Ned Stark can sleep well. It’s utterly despicable behaviour. (And, yes, a great inversion of tropes, just like with Brienne’s hanging.)

[bobbyboy]

Is anyone in agreement that if does turn out that R + L = J, Ned made an almost unforgivable mistake not telling his wife that? I don't care what he promised; if Jon really isn't his son, I see no purpose in not revealing this information to Catelyn. It's not as if she was going to tell anybody. Hiding the fact from Jon, although cruel as well, is more understandable.

I don't think it was a mistake:as long as Catelyn hated Jon nobody would have any doubt about his true origin, instead if she would have knew that Jon was Ed beloved sister's son, she would have loved him as one of her kids... yes she could have faked the hatred but it wouldn't be natural and someone could have notice that.King Robert could have even killed Ed for not tellig him the truth and letting a Targaryen alive...

[Faint]

In particular, it causes harm to others. Cat. Jon. Just so that Ned Stark can sleep well. It’s utterly despicable behaviour. (And, yes, a great inversion of tropes, just like with Brienne’s hanging.)

I'm even inclined to think, as controversial as it may be, that he should have taken Cersei up on her offer (not necessarily to sleep with her but to safeguard her secret). Yes, the thought of King Joffrey reigning the realm is pretty sickening but you figure with Ned and Tywin there they could have at least held everything together instead of the huge war and chaos that followed (and the Others to come).

I don't think it was a mistake:as long as Catelyn hated Jon nobody would have any doubt about his true origin, instead if she would have knew that Jon was Ed beloved sister's son, she would have love him as one of her kids... yes she could have faked the hatred but it wouldn't be natural and someone could have notice that.King Robert could have even killed Ed for not tellig him the truth and letting a Targaryen alive...

See, I don't think this at all, and for many reasons; not least of which is the fact that nobody ever really visited the Starks much. Also, it's not like anyone even suspects the truth to start with (which I always found to be a little queer), compounded by the fact that Robert couldn't ever see what was right in front of his nose anyway. And I really doubt Catelyn would have loved Jon like one of her children because the lie would still be out there and so she is still shamed at having to live under the same roof as the 'bastard.' Finally, I really never saw Ned not telling Catelyn as a function of him wanting to keep the secret close to vest because someone might find out; I'm pretty sure this was just part of the promise that his sister extracted from him.

By the way, this is all assuming that R + L = J.

[Lady Winter Rose]

I think it would depend on the circumstances but certainly before her death I wouldn't consider her feelings towards Jon as being equivalent to those of Cersei towards her younger brother. Indeed, most of the time she just pretended he didn't exist. I recall several times Catelyn not even remembering that Jon existed; I think I even remember a line after she finds out that Bran and Rickon were 'killed' that Robb now had no brothers. And she wasn't saying it to somebody else, she was thinking it in her head -- almost as if she had blocked the existence of Jon from her mind. As for this topic in general, I have always been under the impression that they will meet at some point if for no other reason than because it seems so ripe dramatically speaking; I've always thought it was too good of an opportunity to let get away. But even saying that, I can't conceive how and under what circumstances they could possibly run into each other.

I think she thinks that because Jon isn't trueborn, he couldn't be brother to trueborn Starks

[Faint]

I think she thinks that because Jon isn't trueborn, he couldn't be brother to trueborn Starks

Even if this were the case, despite the fact that she knows Robb and Bran always considered Jon their brother, it really doesn't change the substance of what I'm saying. Jon is very nearly never in her mind; almost as if he didn't exist. Cersei thinks more about Jon and has mentioned him almost as often as Catelyn has, which to me indicates that to Catelyn, Jon isn't that particularly significant or a true target of her hatred. That said, I've been begun having second thoughts on the issue. If it turns out that they meet and Jon remains in perfect health and is in control of the North, and Catelyn still hasn't found out that Sansa, Arya, Bran and Rickon are alive, then I could see a scenario in which she snaps.

[Ramz]

But my thinking is that he can have the meeting and still subvert typical fantasy story telling by not having Catelyn apologize or any sort of standard reconciliation. Not having the meeting itself though I think is wasting a great moment of dramatic tension. Then again, there are plenty such meetings possible in the story and it might be overdoing it to have too many come to fruition. Just off the top of my head I'm thinking of Sansa and the Hound, Jon and Arya, Jaime and Bran, Cersei and any Stark (or Jon), Brien and Jaime, Dany and Cersei, Jon and Dany (depends on who Jon's father is), Theon and Jon, Theon and Asha, and the list goes on and on and on . . . So I can understand why a lot of these encounters may be dropped, but I still think Jon and Catelyn is one of the few too enticing to pass on.

Yea that's my train of thought as well, there are so many potentially awesome scenes of characters just running into each other that I think a Jon/Cat reunion might be a stretch. I don't know if she has any reason to head to the wall, and I don't see Jon leaving any time soon. There is no denying the bone I'd receive from a Cat and Jon meeting though, HARD.

[Ramz]

I think it's extremely cruel, especially giving how much he seems to care for her otherwise.

Sorry guy, if you can't tell your wife you really should get over yourself.

Maybe this was a part of his promise to Lyannna (maybe that's the reason he recalls it so often because it goes against everything he believes about marriage), but still....

Everyone has someone they "need" to tell something to. This is not exactly rocket sciences here. If you want a secret kept, you tell no one regardless of who they are. Especially if its a secret that once revealed could mean the death of someone.

[Manakhkubar]

Everyone has someone they "need" to tell something to. This is not exactly rocket sciences here. If you want a secret kept, you tell no one regardless of who they are. Especially if its a secret that once revealed could mean the death of someone.

Still, kind of sad, if that is what happened. I don't think he had reason not to trust Catelyn in that. And there wouldn't be much chance that the whole issue would be revealed - nobody cared much for what they did in the North. In fact, one could say that _keeping_ it secret from Catelyn finally meant the death of "someone".