Harrold Hardyng's love of life

[Chanur]

I have to say I am in complete agreement with Alexia for once.

[Faint]

That being said, I totally agree with this point. I expect that Tyrion is really angry with her - in fact, that he may hate her by now.

I kind of agree with you that Tyrion is likely to feel this way now but I remain amazed at how much people let him off the hook for his entire role in the Stark's fall. Which is to say, he really isn't justified at all for having anything against Sansa when compared to how she should feel about him. Tyrion all together is not that sympathetic of a character in my view. He knows his sister is a monster, her son son even worse, and their father something even more evil than that, but these are the people he actively aids and supports during the war. Which in some ways is worse than what any of them did during that time because he actually has a conscious awareness of the evil they have done but only sits there to ponder at the issue a bit -- nothing more. I also have a vivid recollection of Tyrion's interactions with Sansa and how he actually expects her to return some measure of gratitude after the Red Wedding and Ned's beheading. Those moments kind of sealed my opinion that despite everything, Cersei is actually the least delusional of her siblings.

[Ecthelion]

See I don't think Tyrion is delusional at all. In fact, I think he's the exact opposite: he's the ultimate pragmatist. He realizes that he has a shit lot in life. His immediate family is tolerant of him at best (Jaime & Kevan?) and openly hostile at worst (Cersei & Tywin). He sticks by them because it's still better than anything else he could do.

Tyrion does realize that his family (specifically Tywin & Cersei) are evil - and he openly detests Joffrey. He tries his best to counter Cersei's influence, but when that fails, he tries to simply limit the amount of damage they are causing.

As to why he still supports his family: blood's thicker than water. He knows he's not likely to receive a warm welcome anywhere else. He may be the black sheep of the family - but he's still a Lannister. He's not about to get sympathy or acceptance anywhere else. He sticks it out with his family for as long as he can, until they utterly leave him out to dry.

As for expecting some thanks for Sansa, I always got the impression that he yearned for somebody to recognize all he was doing to mitigate the disastrous effects of his family. He shielded Sansa from Joffrey/Cersei's wrath several times, not to mention things like not consummating the marriage. Yet at the end of the day she (and everybody else) just cast him in with the rest of them. Even after Cat realized that he most likely wasn't responsible for the assassination attempt on Bran (IIRC) she still doesnt trust him, and tries to use him against his family. It never really mattered what he did - he was never good enough for him family, and he was always one of them to everyone else.

He is hated by his family as an outcast, and hated by everybody else for being one of them. Quite a tough place to be stuck, and he toughed it out about as long as he could before giving up and taking off for Dany.

[trio]

That being said, I don't believe that Kingslaying is considered against the gods - I think you have that mixed up with kinslaying. Its a crime, to be sure. In fact, it is treason.

But wasn't treason what Osmund/Osfrey was condemned of by the High Septon? Wasn't it treason, and murder? And he got whipped to within an inch of his life and then the H.S. said that he wasn't going to judge him himself - he was going to send him to the Gods (i.e. kill him) and let him "stand court" in Heaven. YIKES!!

So if all Sansa is accused of is treason and murder - it's still really scary for her with this High Septon dude.

[Alexia]

But wasn't treason what Osmund/Osfrey condemnded of by the High Septon?

Come on, trio, the man killed a High Septon and was Cersei's catspaw! And confessed! You can't fairly compare the HS' treatment of him to how the HS would treat Sansa. Sansa has not allowed her son to murder commoners or ordered the murder of a High Septon she didn't like. Moreover, she's a minor child and a victim of the Lannisters, whom the High Septon apparently really hates. She is also famed for her piety, unlike Cersei or Kettleblack.

Sansa is accused of killing a king who was famed throughout the land for his madness and cruelty. For all we know, once the HS strikes a deal with her, he could say that the fair and gentle Lady Sansa was used as an instrument of the gods to strike Joffrey down for his impiety. Or he could say that evil Tyrion killed Joffrey, and that Sansa is blameless of his actions because their marriage isn't consummated.

He won't give her something for nothing but I don't actually think he'll do anything to her about Joffrey. If anything, I suspect he might fall to his knees and kiss the hem of her gown in thankfulness! :P

Okay, not really but you see my point. If anything, I think he'd be inclined to look for a way to use her against Cersei and Tyrion.

[Faint]

See I don't think Tyrion is delusional at all.

At best, you can say that Tyrion is not delusional about many things, even most things, but he has this fatal flaw where he continues to seek acceptance and even love from those that will never give him that -- and I mean never. And in that one respect, he is delusional to a degree that is truly staggering, which is all that matters because that's the one flaw that keeps biting him in the ass.

Inheriting the Rock?

Sansa loving him?

Shae not selling him out?

The populace of King's Landing appreciating him?

The fact that he even conceives of these matters as possible or questionable is really all that you need to know about Tyrion and the degree to which he is realistic about certain things.

[trio]

Come on, trio, the man killed a High Septon and was Cersei's catspaw! And confessed!

Well, in fairness he only confessed after torture - then I guess they couldn't shut him up. :devil:

But we'll have to disagree.

He seemed like a zealot to me - i.e. murder is murder is murder. Sin is sin is sin. Seemed as hardline as they come. And Joffrey might have been a prick, but he was still anointed by the Faith as King. No matter what Joffrey did, it's got to have been still a pretty big sin.

As to a confession being neccessary? Margery never confessed to anything - she was still forcibly locked up. And worse may yet happen to her, sadly. As to being young and of unsmirched reputation? See also: Margery.

But I guess we'll wait and see.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

He seemed like a zealot to me - i.e. murder is murder is murder. Sin is sin is sin. Seemed as hardline as they come.

Really? Is that why he was willing to bargain for the arming of the Faith in exchange for anointing Tommen and forgiving the Crown's debt? That's the actions of a pragmatist, not a hardliner.

[Alexia]

As to a confession being neccessary? Margery never confessed to anything - she was still forcibly locked up.

Yes, but Margaery was accused of blasphemy. Nobody has or would accuse Sansa of blasphemy. Also, the Seven are already strong where Margaery hails from, unlike with Sansa.

But this is where it gets interesting. The HS massively overstepped himself by seizing both Cersei and Margaery instead of picking a side, and I wonder if he plans to negotiate with the Tyrells to have Margaery released and declared innocent, in exchange for their support in bringing Cersei down. I am honestly befuddled as to what the hell he could have been thinking. (ADWD can't come soon enough!)

I agree that he's a zealot but he's also shown that he's willing to negotiate. He named our incest-borne bastard Tommen as king despite the fact that he surely knew the truth - in exchange for being able to arm the Faith. And doubtless, his realization that Stannis was the only other viable candidate and Stannis had forsworn his faith had something to do with it...

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

But this is where it gets interesting. The HS massively overstepped himself by seizing both Cersei and Margaery instead of picking a side, and I wonder if he plans to negotiate with the Tyrells to have Margaery released and declared innocent, in exchange for their support in bringing Cersei down. I am honestly befuddled as to what the hell he could have been thinking. (ADWD can't come soon enough!)

I disagree with that. If you assume that the HS took the charges against Margaery at face value until he heard Osney's true confession (which is likely), then I think he did the only thing that he could do. If he had taken Cersei's side, then he would have fallen with her once Mace Tyrell and Randyll Tarly returned to the city. If he had released Margaery, than he would have been chancing the survival of his movement on Mace Tyrell not holding a grudge, which is chancy. But now he's in a position to reach a real alliance with Mace Tyrell, based on solid assurances and a mutual enemy, and that would put the sparrows in a much safer position going forward.

(Besides, he's not holding Margaery hostage. He's keeping her safe while King's Landing is so much turmoil. Nothing hostile about that, no sir.)

[Alexia]

(Besides, he's not holding Margaery hostage. He's keeping her safe while King's Landing is so much turmoil. Nothing hostile about that, no sir.)

I dunno...he specifically said that "she is not innocent" during his conversation with Cersei. Perhaps he was trying to throw Cersei off deliberately or he could genuinely be planning to ruin Margaery. If her family says that the marriage to Renly was really consummated, then all he'll have on her is blasphemy (which can't be a capital crime...can it?). If he wants to take down both Margaery and Cersei and establish the primacy of the Faith, well, suffice it to say I don't think that'll end well for him.

Although it is amusing to think of an ending to ASOIAF where, after all this fighting over the throne, the country becomes a theocracy engulfed in sectarian warefare between followers of the Seven and followers of the Red God...

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

I dunno...he specifically said that "she is not innocent" during his conversation with Cersei. Perhaps he was trying to throw Cersei off deliberately or he could genuinely be planning to ruin Margaery. If her family says that the marriage to Renly was really consummated, then all he'll have on her is blasphemy (which can't be a capital crime...can it?). If he wants to take down both Margaery and Cersei and establish the primacy of the Faith, well, suffice it to say I don't think that'll end well for him.

That's true. If he tries that, then he dies and the Tyrells will probably start opposing the armed factions of the Faith. I think that the Faith Militant will be a permanent change in the setting--GRRM said that the Christianization of Europe was one analogue to the events of the series--so I don't think that's going to happen. But I certainly could be wrong.

[Alexia]

That's true. If he tries that, then he dies and the Tyrells will probably start opposing the armed factions of the Faith. I think that the Faith Militant will be a permanent change in the setting--GRRM said that the Christianization of Europe was one analogue to the events of the series--so I don't think that's going to happen. But I certainly could be wrong.

I'm expecting that the Faith Militant will last through the end and become a key player in the war against the Others (surely we have to get to that eventually, no?). Although, I think that the Christianization of Europe is supposed to be what's happening with the spread of Red-God-ism and they worship fire (and Melisandre is apparently planning a war against Others) so maybe not.

How far has the worship of the Red God spread by now? Anyone think there's a chance Sansa would convert, or Daenerys, or another key character?

[Chanur]

If her family says that the marriage to Renly was really consummated, then all he'll have on her is blasphemy (which can't be a capital crime...can it?).

I think you were being sarcastic about blasphemy ( Not sure , genuine question), but it is very likely that the punishment for Blasphemy is death. It still is today in many countries.

[TrackerNeil]

I dunno...he specifically said that "she is not innocent" during his conversation with Cersei. Perhaps he was trying to throw Cersei off deliberately or he could genuinely be planning to ruin Margaery. If her family says that the marriage to Renly was really consummated, then all he'll have on her is blasphemy (which can't be a capital crime...can it?). If he wants to take down both Margaery and Cersei and establish the primacy of the Faith, well, suffice it to say I don't think that'll end well for him.

Well, this statement was made before the trial was conducted, which to my mind leaves open the possibility that the HS could plausibly reverse himself later if that becomes convenient. After all, if she's to be given a trial it's because there is some possibility, however remote, that she'll be acquitted.

I'm with PDC here. I think Margaery is not the HS's target; that's Cersei. Margaery is the Faith's insurance that Lord Tyrell won't do anything rash when he gets to King's Landing...like knock off a few thousand sparrows in the streets. The HS can trade Margaery's release for Mace's guarantee that he won't side with the Lannisters against the Faith.

I have a theory - far out, but fun - that the HS might be willing to spare Cersei herself in exchange for the proper concession. What if he were to allow Cersei to live out her days under house arrest (at Casterly Rock or some such place) in return for royal permission to punish those responsible for the Red Wedding? From what we heard at the small council meeting, the Faith is itching for some retribution there...

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

I'm expecting that the Faith Militant will last through the end and become a key player in the war against the Others (surely we have to get to that eventually, no?). Although, I think that the Christianization of Europe is supposed to be what's happening with the spread of Red-God-ism and they worship fire (and Melisandre is apparently planning a war against Others) so maybe not.

That's possible; but my favored scenario is that the (still fairly limited) spread of R'hllor worship actually sparks intolerance from followers of the Faith as a counter-reaction. (The High Septon refers to "demon worshippers" desecrating septs, presumably a reference to the BWB.) The Faith takes Dany's side in a war against Stannis, one of the aforementioned demon worshippers, and it takes on something of the character of a crusade, persecuting worshipers of the old gods as well as the followers of R'hllor.

[Faint]

I'd thought that AFfC was the book that was supposed to be geared around religion and that the coming book would now be centered on disease. Or at least that's how I understood things from my admittedly limited reading of these forums. Wouldn't a crusade-like story arc sort of run counter to that? Although I still have no good ideas myself how disease will be incorporated into ADwD as the unifying theme of the book.

[Chanur]

Would not be hard to liken the spreading of R'hllor/the disregard of the faith by nobility to that of disease.

[Lyndsica]

Do we even know for sure that Littlefinger really arranged a marriage? Yes, he told Sansa he did, but I don't believe a damn thing he says without corrobarating evidence! Even then...

[Lord Godric]

I'd thought that AFfC was the book that was supposed to be geared around religion and that the coming book would now be centered on disease. Or at least that's how I understood things from my admittedly limited reading of these forums. Wouldn't a crusade-like story arc sort of run counter to that? Although I still have no good ideas myself how disease will be incorporated into ADwD as the unifying theme of the book.

I think the spread of disease and the spread of religion would be closely tied. George said something like "when times are tough people turn to religion" and things would be terribly tough when people are dropping like flies from a plague. In the real world, plague was seen as a punishment of God, and I'm sure people in Westeros would think the same thing. And so to try and save themselves and stop the spread of the disease they would turn to whatever god(s) they worshiped.