A Thread for Small Questions VII

[Pinkyfinger]

Any connection between Gendry "The Bull" and "The White Bull" Gerold Hightower

[zmflavius]

On a related subject, how does inheritance law work in Westeros? What are the limits on who a lord can declare as his heir? I know Robb wanted to declare Jon his heir at one point, which presumably either meant legitimizing him or just bypassing his legitimate brothers (both of which would be impossible under old English law, IIRC).

Well, actually, Robb thought both his legitimate brothers were dead. In addition, I think legitimization, in Westeros, is legal. That said, it pretty much works in, males inherit before female siblings, children of first sons have priority over children of second sons and second sons, and female children and male brothers to the deceased have contestable claims.

[Maestress Sand]

I know Robb wanted to declare Jon his heir at one point, which presumably either meant legitimizing him or just bypassing his legitimate brothers (both of which would be impossible under old English law, IIRC).

What zmflavius said. But additionally it's specifically stated that only Kings can legitimize bastards. So Robb was only able to consider this because he was King of North. Once Jon is legitimate by Kingly-power, his claim is very good. IIRC he's actually older than Robb.

[Xenophon]

What zmflavius said. But additionally it's specifically stated that only Kings can legitimize bastards. So Robb was only able to consider this because he was King of North. Once Jon is legitimate by Kingly-power, his claim is very good. IIRC he's actually older than Robb.

Thanks guys. What about disinheriting? In other words, could Tywin just bypass Tyrion on his own authority?

[Yarl Snow]

Thanks guys. What about disinheriting? In other words, could Tywin just bypass Tyrion on his own authority?

Apparently he thought so. I believe any Lord is entitled to name his heir, regardless of existing ones, but I have no evidence, besides Tywin's conversation with Tyrion (Casterly Rock. Never.). Although there is evidence against it, since Sam Tarly was forcibly removed as heir by his father. Which he might not have done, had he simply had the option to name a new heir.

[Xenophon]

Apparently he thought so. I believe any Lord is entitled to name his heir, regardless of existing ones, but I have no evidence, besides Tywin's conversation with Tyrion (Casterly Rock. Never.). Although there is evidence against it, since Sam Tarly was forcibly removed as heir by his father. Which he might not have done, had he simply had the option to name a new heir.

Hmm, Tywin might have just been counting on his influence with the King to get a Royal decree to that effect. As you say, Sam suggests it isn't possible.

[Masha]

Well, Robb believed that Bran and Rickon were both dead at that point, which pretty much left Jon as the only male that would have any claim to Winterfell. If he knew either of them were alive, I don't think he would have mentioned Jon at all.

Plus Arya, as far as he knew, in Lannisters hands and Sansa married to Tyrion, also a Lannister. They would have been his heirs but at this point in time, it was either Jon or thru his sisters - Lannisters

[Kaitscralt]

There's no indication that divorces do happen in Westeros.

After something like the Red Wedding, I can only imagine how a divorce proceeding would go. :lol:

[zmflavius]

While on the subject of Sam Tarly, it is possible that he could have disinherited Sam, but from what I've read, even after disinheritment, etc. contestable claims can still exist, IE, Edmure Tully, despite attaintment, is considered a danger to Emmon's claim to Riverrun, and the claim can only be solved by permanently removing the contestant from the line of succession. Hence, Emmon's desire to hang Edmure, and Randyll telling Samwell to go to the NW or die. In addition, there's also the issue of legitimacy, where even if legally, someone is not in the line of succession anymore, the people with an interest in the position may still consider them the rightful claimant. For example, the Riverrun staff doesn't seem to be welcoming of Emmon Frey, just as the Winterfell staff did not welcome Theon. This is why Ramsay is being married to "Arya" and why Sansa was married to Tyrion; The Starks are rebelling traitors, but the name still provides a degree of legitimacy to the northron people. So, summing up, technically, yes, disinheritment happens and is fully binding, but in practice, it's best to not completely ignore the old claimants.

[KyleLitke]

Yeah, it's tough to say on Sam. I think it's less about "I had to remove him" as it was "I don't want there to even be a hint of a threat to my new heir".

[mormont]

What zmflavius said. But additionally it's specifically stated that only Kings can legitimize bastards. So Robb was only able to consider this because he was King of North. Once Jon is legitimate by Kingly-power, his claim is very good.

This is true, but of course by the same token Jon being 'legitimised' by Robb only matters to those who are willing to admit that Robb was a king in the first place. To Kevan or Mace Tyrell, Jon is still a bastard and 'Arya' is the heir: even if Robb's decree turns up, they're likely to regard it as a worthless piece of paper.

And of course Jon's claim does not exist so long as he's in the NW. ;)

IIRC he's actually older than Robb.

Officially, he's younger. The timeline as Ned tells it is that he marries Cat, she becomes pregnant with Robb, Ned goes off on campaign, he then meets Wylla, and Jon is conceived and born some time after Robb. (IIRC, Jon has his nameday in AGOT while Robb's has passed already.)

[Sera dy Relandrant]

Why does Walder Frey acknowledge all his bastards and bring them up in his own household? Isn't it not traditionally done by the lords?

[mormont]

Why does Walder Frey acknowledge all his bastards and bring them up in his own household? Isn't it not traditionally done by the lords?

It's not. Walder clearly takes a perverse pride in displaying evidence of his fertility, and also in sticking two fingers up to societal convention. The latter is probably because many other noble families regard the Freys as a bit declasse, and this annoys him.

He acknowledges his bastards, but he doesn't seem to treat them particularly well - they're brought up in the Twins, but we see him making rather derogatory statements about bastardy right in front of them, and we can probably assume that the bastards aren't treated as well as the legitimate children. Nor does he seem bothered about causing offence to his wives or his wives' families, or his legitimate children, for that matter. In fact quite the reverse - I get the impression that Walder likes playing his family off against each other, and keeping the bastards around is part of that.

[Sera dy Relandrant]

Why did he specifically choose Roslin for Edmure? He could just have pawned off one of the uglier daughters on him and considered it a 'good bargain'.

[Sting]

I think the old git is still playing it safe. Even if "his" side looses and every Frey get's murdered I don't think Edmur could alow Roslin being killed, and she being beautiful makes that decedion easier. Also Olivar wasn't there (or maybe imprisoned so he wouldn't warn anyone which could be revealed later and be a strong case for him to survive eventual punishment of the Frey family) and probably some other Frey's have been left out of the plan. Just to be sure..

[Yoren the rainbow cloak]

Can Bran be one of the three heads of the dragon without dany knowing him. He had the dreams about the 3 eyed crow, he is the wolf with wings,and wrag who has took control of hondor????

[Alexia]

I thought Edmure was chosen because Edmure's love of pretty girls is well known, as is the fact that he was being forced into the marriage, and Lord Walder didn't want him to kick up some kind of a fuss that might derail the massacre.

[Yarl Snow]

I thought Edmure was chosen because Edmure's love of pretty girls is well known, as is the fact that he was being forced into the marriage, and Lord Walder didn't want him to kick up some kind of a fuss that might derail the massacre.

I think there was also something about Roslin's fertility, and about bearing mostly male children.

[Maestress Sand]

This is true, but of course by the same token Jon being 'legitimised' by Robb only matters to those who are willing to admit that Robb was a king in the first place. To Kevan or Mace Tyrell, Jon is still a bastard and 'Arya' is the heir: even if Robb's decree turns up, they're likely to regard it as a worthless piece of paper.

Of course. Everything in Westeros depends on how much power you have.

I, too, thought Roslin was chosen because she was pretty and therefore there would be no reason for the Stark-Tully party to be reluctant, insulted, or delay things. They expected to be "punished" with the worst that Frey had, so when they see this pretty young thing, they feel so relieved they have no compunctions about going on.

My feelings of concern for the Stark-Tully party jumped 150% when I read that Roslin was pretty. Walder will punish you.

[Pink Walder Frey]

Who was Taena Merryweather's lover? - He is described as a guy with black hair and a scar in his face. Is there maybe anybody who could fit this description, because I think we still don't know who she (maybe) was the employe of - someone who was manipulating Cercei - so maybe the identity of her lover would give a hint to this possible person (I'd guess Tyrell's or Littlefinger, or not so likely as the to other Varys).

And there was in AFFC a tale mentioned about a woman from Myr (like Taena) who influenced (certainly) the last Darklyn King to capature Aerys - and GRRM often tells us through tales that are simultaneously told to actual events to us, what a character could do. So there could be maybe a connection between Taena's acting and this tale.

Well, and another question: was there any hint to what task Cercei gave to Balon Swann, apart from bringing Gregor's head to Dorne? She mentioned another task, but I wasn't able to find any hint about it's content.