[Book & TV Spoilers] What was left out, and what was left in

[aeu]

Actually, every time but for the first time I read AGoT, I liked Jon's character less and felt he was a whiny emo bitch. YMMV

I always thought Jon was a whiny emo bitch. The portrayal in the series is a vast improvement on how I pictured Jon. Not being able to hear the inner dialogue does wonders for some characters.

I can't say I'm fond of the hair scene, but how exactly does the dagger point to the Lannisters? In the book, Cat doesn't have any evidence to suggest it does until Littlefinger's lie.

Agreed. The hair scene is indeed weak, but IMO, the book version is even weaker. Cat doesn't really have any reason to suspect Jaime, does she? She basicly goes "Jaime didn't go hunting, ergo he must have something to do with this!..."

[Tywin's bastard]

Also Acrobat Tyrion,which was always so strangely out of place.

And Robert making Jaime the Warden of the East, despite that he's sworn to never hold land (and it never comes up again).

[The_Halfhand]

Twyn's Bastard, we're just going to have to agree to disagree. I could write yet another long, point-by-point post rebuking your claims, but honestly, I doubt it would change your mind and I feel I've upheld my points as best I can.

You can go on enjoying the show, but I'm going to continue to point out stuff that I feel could have been added from the books. I don't want to get into semantic arguments with you, since a lot of what you're saying is getting marred in hypotheticals, which is not what this thread is meant to be about.

These are things that were in the book that have been left out of the show, and I would have liked to have seen them in there. Period.

However, I feel your points will be much more valid once they start getting into the second book, since much of that book will be harder to do a straight-up adaptation of, and they will have to take liberties to start fitting everything in. I think I'm more critical now because the story hasn't gotten as complicated yet.

BTW - anyone else think they're going to have to split up Clash Of Kings into two seasons? I think that might be best seeing as how I thought they did a great job with Danny's story in episode 2, and that covered just one chapter. If they had more time to tell the story, they could probably fit a lot more stuff from the books in. I could easily see them ending the second season with the battle of the blackwater. Plus, it would give GRRM more time to finish the books.

[The_Halfhand]

And Robert making Jaime the Warden of the East, despite that he's sworn to never hold land (and it never comes up again).

Warden's aren't landholders. They're like governors of a region appointed by the King. Lords are landowners, and must follow the commands of the Warden.

[Whitering]

Dany is a shadow of the complex character she is in the book. She never shows her independence by galloping around on Silver. She hasn't had any dragon dreams. At this rate, she's going to go from being a scared little girl with Stockholm Syndrome, to ruling a growing tribe of Dothraki and Freedmen and birthing the first dragons in centuries.

The show has missed her gallops on Silver, her first instance of giving orders to Mormont and any demonstration of intelligence or growing independence. Also, having sex in front of the tribe was a powerful demonstration of fierce independence in the book.

As to the dragons, the only clue we have that she will birth the dragons is that she got the eggs. Wow. I know dragon dreams are difficult but we could use some indication of her powerful attachment to dragon kind, that separates her from the rest of her family.

That's what the books bring, a wonderful second, third, fourth, etc...reread that shows the steps on the path to an event. They are missing the steps with Dany. The show will not be as rewatchable as the books are rereadable. I guess I shouldn't expect as much but it's still disappointing.

[Balefont]

The show has missed her gallops on Silver, her first instance of giving orders to Mormont and any demonstration of intelligence or growing independence.

Ahem, but I do believe this is coming in the next episode based on the preview.

[Hooplehead]

Dany is a shadow of the complex character she is in the book. She never shows her independence by galloping around on Silver. She hasn't had any dragon dreams. At this rate, she's going to go from being a scared little girl with Stockholm Syndrome, to ruling a growing tribe of Dothraki and Freedmen and birthing the first dragons in centuries.

Assuming that the birthing of the dragons happens at the end of the last episode... they have 8 more episodes to show her character's growth. Don't you think you're jumping the gun a bit here?

[Hooplehead]

BTW - anyone else think they're going to have to split up Clash Of Kings into two seasons? I think that might be best seeing as how I thought they did a great job with Danny's story in episode 2, and that covered just one chapter. If they had more time to tell the story, they could probably fit a lot more stuff from the books in. I could easily see them ending the second season with the battle of the blackwater. Plus, it would give GRRM more time to finish the books.

I think best case scenario, with the cost involved and all, this show runs 6, maybe 7 seasons. HBO dramas usually don't live much longer. One book = one season may not hold up over time, especially since they'll have to do some shuffling around AFfC. There's no way it could be a standalone season. You might see the end of SoS, AFfC, and ADwD all jumbled into seasons 4 and 5, assuming we make it that far.

[Tywin's bastard]

Twyn's Bastard, we're just going to have to agree to disagree. I could write yet another long, point-by-point post rebuking your claims, but honestly, I doubt it would change your mind and I feel I've upheld my points as best I can.

You can go on enjoying the show, but I'm going to continue to point out stuff that I feel could have been added from the books. I don't want to get into semantic arguments with you, since a lot of what you're saying is getting marred in hypotheticals, which is not what this thread is meant to be about.

These are things that were in the book that have been left out of the show, and I would have liked to have seen them in there. Period.

However, I feel your points will be much more valid once they start getting into the second book, since much of that book will be harder to do a straight-up adaptation of, and they will have to take liberties to start fitting everything in. I think I'm more critical now because the story hasn't gotten as complicated yet.

BTW - anyone else think they're going to have to split up Clash Of Kings into two seasons? I think that might be best seeing as how I thought they did a great job with Danny's story in episode 2, and that covered just one chapter. If they had more time to tell the story, they could probably fit a lot more stuff from the books in. I could easily see them ending the second season with the battle of the blackwater. Plus, it would give GRRM more time to finish the books.

Yes, I never expected anyone of us to change. I just saw it as an exchange of ideas.

And I never said you couldn't point out such things (on the contrary I said many times that everyone has their opinions), I just discussed those things with you.

There are things that aren't in that I would likely have put in if I made the series as well (as far as I can tell without doing the extreme work of looking at pacing etc for an entire episode). I never made any point that the show is perfect. I do think that a scene like the one with Jaime and Jon managed to say more than some things left out though.

You are correct in that the story hasn't gotten very complicated yet. In truth it's hardly even begun after two episodes. I don't know if the actual story will be harder to tell as we progress in the books but the amount of material will increase so it will be harder due to that. As for splitting up Clash of Kings, I don't think it will happen as there was a rumor of that HBO won't go any further than 7 seasons. I hope they at least will allow for longer seasons for ACOK and the two seasons that will likely be mixed with AFFC and ADWD. If they stick with 10 episodes the work of adaptation will become extremely hard.

Warden's aren't landholders. They're like governors of a region appointed by the King. Lords are landowners, and must follow the commands of the Warden.

That's true, but it still seems odd to choose one of the King's Guard seeing how they are sworn to spend their lives guarding the king and now he's supposed to defend the East from potential attacks. Not that it matters much since it will seemingly have zero impact on anything other than that Robert Arryn's title is lengthened by a "the true".

[Tywin's bastard]

Assuming that the birthing of the dragons happens at the end of the last episode... they have 8 more episodes to show her character's growth. Don't you think you're jumping the gun a bit here?

From what Ran reported they don't seem to use her dreams. Judging from what's happening this far they seem to go the more subtle road with visual links like her watching the eggs in moments of hardship and so on.

I remember Ran saying that she seems to act out of nowhere at a certain point (I don't remember if he said exactly what but I'm at least guessing it's when she tries to hatch the eggs the first time) but I actually think she does that pretty much out of nowhere anyway, despite the two dreams she has had. I don't think non-reader viewers will have much trouble getting that since they already seem to pick up on that there's some form of bond between her and the eggs, judging from some reviews I've seen.

[Snow White]

Also Acrobat Tyrion,which was always so strangely out of place.

Yeah, but GRRM does that ALL THE TIME. Tyrion kicks ass at least three other times, which is decidedly odd.

That's true, but it still seems odd to choose one of the King's Guard seeing how they are sworn to spend their lives guarding the king and now he's supposed to defend the East from potential attacks. Not that it matters much since it will seemingly have zero impact on anything other than that Robert Arryn's title is lengthened by a "the true".

I don't see the conflict. It's just a broader interpretation of 'guarding the King.'

[herkles]

I am curious if they are going to do the dreams at all, I imagine that some dreams, such as Bran's green dream, they might just have him talk about it with another character than just show us.

As for dany not being as complex character, I dissagree. She is one of my favorite characters, and I think that Emilie Clark does a good job with her. though next episode does seem to have a good bit of dany scenes, from what I saw in the preview it has her fighting with her brother; so maybe her giving orders to mormant would be in this episode.

Also: I over heard a small line of dialogue between viersy and mormant about how he used to be a slaver back in westros. Was that in the books at this point? Been a while since I read the books, but I am not sure when that little info was revealed or not.

[Balefont]

Also: I over heard a small line of dialogue between viersy and mormant about how he used to be a slaver back in westros. Was that in the books at this point? Been a while since I read the books, but I am not sure when that little info was revealed or not.

That conversation was referring to why Jorah ran/chose exile from Westeros. Instead of submitting the poachers to the King's justice, he sold them to a slaver. He needed the money after his financial ruin of a marriage. The plotline is in the books but it's a conversation that actually took place between Jorah and Dany. Making it between Viserys and Jorah instead accomplished two things 1) gave some back story and planted the seed of animosity between Jorah and Ned, 2) allowed Viserys the chance to make a promise to Jorah in an effort to promote his allegiance to Viserys as King.

[Axon]

Don't like the changes? Well,

[Tywin's bastard]

Yeah, but GRRM does that ALL THE TIME. Tyrion kicks ass at least three other times, which is decidedly odd.

The times he does battle he's decently capable but not on the level of being some freakish acrobat. When he fights at the trident he's pretty lucky to get out of that without having to yield or die.

I don't see the conflict. It's just a broader interpretation of 'guarding the King.'

I still find it a very odd choice although there's been more of that with the KG, like how Rhaegar got three of them to guard the Tower of Joy for a pretty long time when there was war against the king. Not least since he seated Stannis at Dragonstone to keep guard. But then again he probably just did it to stop the endless nagging from Cersei.

[DizoakiusMaximus]

Using Ice made it more formal and gave the direwolf a human level of respect. Ice is more than just a headsman's axe it's a sacred symbol of House Stark and of the North.

Visually i can see that it filmed better with the dagger and i suppose that it's hard to convey, without lengthy dialogue, what doing it with ice means.

From what I recall (and I might be mistaken) they never actually say that Ned uses Ice in the book. He calls for Jory to bring it to him to be sure, but seriously, isn't using a Great Sword a bit of overkill on a wolf pup that's chained up? Isn't it also a bit impersonal? I get that the wolf, being from the North, deserves better than a butcher (although I fail to see how using a Great Sword on Lady wouldn't qualify as "butchering" her) but I just don't see Ned winding-up with Ice and hacking the poor pup to death...it might've just been a thing where as long as Ice is "present" (in a ceremonial way?) then it's considered a more honorable death (I don't know why, it just strikes me as unnecessary to use this gigantic fuck-off sword to kill Sansa's pet). Even if Martin meant for Ned to use Ice...I dunno, I sorta liked this better.

[The_Halfhand]

That's true, but it still seems odd to choose one of the King's Guard seeing how they are sworn to spend their lives guarding the king and now he's supposed to defend the East from potential attacks. Not that it matters much since it will seemingly have zero impact on anything other than that Robert Arryn's title is lengthened by a "the true".

Its very odd, which is why I think Ned had such a strong reaction against it, beyond the whole "one family controlling 50% of the realm" thing. But the Lannisters never really concerned themselves with protocol when it came to ambition. Cercei always wanted Jamie to have more power, because she loved him, and Twyn always wanted Jamie to have more power because he saw him as his true heir and never approved of him joining the Kingsguard.

Often, Robert would just submit to Cercei's demands rather than fighting her over them, no matter how terrible those demands were.

[The_Halfhand]

From what I recall (and I might be mistaken) they never actually say that Ned uses Ice in the book. He calls for Jory to bring it to him to be sure, but seriously, isn't using a Great Sword a bit of overkill on a wolf pup that's chained up? Isn't it also a bit impersonal? I get that the wolf, being from the North, deserves better than a butcher (although I fail to see how using a Great Sword on Lady wouldn't qualify as "butchering" her) but I just don't see Ned winding-up with Ice and hacking the poor pup to death...it might've just been a thing where as long as Ice is "present" (in a ceremonial way?) then it's considered a more honorable death (I don't know why, it just strikes me as unnecessary to use this gigantic fuck-off sword to kill Sansa's pet). Even if Martin meant for Ned to use Ice...I dunno, I sorta liked this better.

No, Ned uses Ice to kill Lady in the book. It's the sword he uses for all his executions, and because its Valaryan Steel, it can cut a head off with one swing to make the death quicker and cleaner than an average blade.

[The_Halfhand]

The times he does battle he's decently capable but not on the level of being some freakish acrobat. When he fights at the trident he's pretty lucky to get out of that without having to yield or die.

Though the sommersault does seem rather odd, especially considering the detail Martin goes into about Tyrion's deformities, I think it was meant to set up that Tyrion can indeed be physical when the occasion calls for it. I agree that perhaps it was a bit over the top, but then again, we have dragons and zombies in the story, so I guess this bit can be overlooked, lol.

I still find it a very odd choice although there's been more of that with the KG, like how Rhaegar got three of them to guard the Tower of Joy for a pretty long time when there was war against the king. Not least since he seated Stannis at Dragonstone to keep guard. But then again he probably just did it to stop the endless nagging from Cersei.

Well, if you want to get into hypotheticals here... the general theory is that Rhaegar's princess and heir were at the Tower of Joy, and with the war going badly, he left the Kingsguard there to protect them. Rhaegar marched with Barriston Selmy at his side, and one other KG I believe who was killed in the battle. And Aerys had Jamie with him at Kings Landing. So three Kingsguard to protect the royal family isn't that far fetched, though I'm not sure how that works exactly since Rhaegar was already married with children.

[The_Halfhand]

As for splitting up Clash of Kings, I don't think it will happen as there was a rumor of that HBO won't go any further than 7 seasons. I hope they at least will allow for longer seasons for ACOK and the two seasons that will likely be mixed with AFFC and ADWD. If they stick with 10 episodes the work of adaptation will become extremely hard.

I'm sure if the show wins awards and has a strong following, it could go longer than seven seasons. HBO probably would have kept the Sopranos going if they producers hadn't gotten tired of it, and other shows, like the Wire, even though it was low rated, could have gone on but the producers chose to end the shows. And let's not even get into True Blood, which has lord knows how many novels to work with at this point. lol.

I could see HBO ordering 12 episodes for Clash of Kings/Season 2, but 2 extra hours might not be enough to get in everything that needs to be there for the larger tale. Once Dance with Dragons is released, that gives 5 seasons worth of story for the producers to work with, but considering GRRM takes about 5 years to finish a new book, that still means the books may not be done before its time for the series to wrap up. I wonder if they have a contingency play for that? Seems like splitting Kings & Swords into two seasons each might help with that.