Whose going to protect the Frey's now?

[RobMRobM]

Funny - I'm re-reading FFC and at the start of an Arya chapter on p. 312 of my hardcopy, while in Braavos, she does her usual list of enemies, then says she would list the names of the Freys of the Crossing too, if she had known them, then says "One day I'll know...and then I'll kill them all." Serious foreshadowing?

[JWJ78]

its been awhile since I read the books but I thought that Stoneheart caused a rift in the BWB. Aren't they split now? those that are trying to protect the people and those that follow Stoneheart? either way I see them causing problems but they are no real threat to the Freys- if anything its helping Lord Frey by weeding out all the wanna-be heirs. Sansa I believe will be the one that causes the downfall of the Twins.

[georgeforeman]

Fair enough but I think that only strengthens my point. The Starks do have plot armor. Only Ned and Robb have died. Everyone else has conveniently survived despite facing what has to be considered nearly insurmountable odds.

Are you just ignoring Catelyn? 'Cause her reanimated decomposing corpse is definitely not the same thing as her being alive.

[Faint]

Are you just ignoring Catelyn? 'Cause her reanimated decomposing corpse is definitely not the same thing as her being alive.

Not really ignoring her but the point is, she's still alive, whatever she is. It's not as if she's lost her memories. More to my point though, it's not as if Jon, Sansa, Arya, Bran, or Rickon are dead. There's your Stark revival right there.

Indeed, they're in a lot better position than the Lannisters despite appearances to the contrary. At this point, I'm starting to think Tyrek, Martyn, and Janei will be the only Lannisters left from the main line of the House when the books end. Perhaps Tyrion, but he's not much of a Lannister anymore in any case.

[Kittyhat]

Not really ignoring her but the point is, she's still alive, whatever she is. It's not as if she's lost her memories.

... of the Red Wedding, sure.

About all that's left of Catelyn in that ... thing ... that calls itself Lady Stoneheart is hatred, a lust for vengeance, and memory of the Red Wedding. It doesn't seem to care about anything else anymore. It is not capable of a normal life. It probably wouldn't even care that Sansa and Arya are still alive, if it even remembers whom those people are.

For all meaningful purposes, Catelyn is dead. She died the day of the Red Wedding, and she's not coming back.

[Gurkhal]

Perhaps Tyrion, but he's not much of a Lannister anymore in any case.

Where he goes or not don't really matter. He'll be a Lannister in everyone's eyes and in his own, even if he's separated himself from the rest of the House.

[Red Sun]

... of the Red Wedding, sure.

About all that's left of Catelyn in that ... thing ... that calls itself Lady Stoneheart is hatred, a lust for vengeance, and memory of the Red Wedding. It doesn't seem to care about anything else anymore. It is not capable of a normal life. It probably wouldn't even care that Sansa and Arya are still alive, if it even remembers whom those people are.

For all meaningful purposes, Catelyn is dead. She died the day of the Red Wedding, and she's not coming back.

That's not even true, because she was a driving force behind the BWB looking for Arya. It's more that her emotions are frozen at the moments of the Red Wedding and since she is dead, there is no possibility that she can ever heal from that trauma, like a living person.

I don't think Catelyn being revived is the same as a plot shield, since she is still lost and whatever she achieves with the BWB, she will not really profit from it.

[Lost Time]

That's not even true, because she was a driving force behind the BWB looking for Arya. It's more that her emotions are frozen at the moments of the Red Wedding and since she is dead, there is no possibility that she can ever heal from that trauma, like a living person.

I don't think Catelyn being revived is the same as a plot shield, since she is still lost and whatever she achieves with the BWB, she will not really profit from it.

This and the fact that her anger over Brienne and Jaime directly stems from the fact that they did not get her daughters back (the oath).

Stoneheart is dead and will likely (hopefully for her soul's sake) die again before the end of the series as I can't imagine a corpse as a loving mother to her remaining children...but she's still Catelyn. Just a really pissed off aspect of her for good reason.

[Lord Wyman Manderly]

In my opinion the Frey`s are in a pretty solid position. Their enemies in the riverlands are severely weakened. while they have conserved a lot of their own strength.

I dont think that Stonehearts rabble can do much to hurt them either. If they manage to reclaim the former* Tully high seat, they would be hard-pressed to hold it.

House Frey is a pretty strong house on its own, and with close ties with the Boltons and house Lannisters they are not in a vulnerable position. Both houses Frey and Bolton are on their way up on the latter. And while house Lannister has lost some thus far, and probably find themselves in a dire situation in the near future, they still have considerable power in both swords and gold safely tucked away in the west.

No, the Freys are OK all right. I wouldnt worry. All is as it should be. :)

All hail Walder the Great! :bowdown: May the Freys and Boltons rule Westeros in perpetuity! :bowdown:

Second edit: *Important word added

[Gurkhal]

:bowdown: Hail king Roose and Hand Walder!

Anyway, it will be interesting how much damage Stoneheart manages to do before she's taken down. I doubt she'll ever be successful but I can well imagine that she'll have a few victories of her own.

[AvengingAryaFan]

Funny - I'm re-reading FFC and at the start of an Arya chapter on p. 312 of my hardcopy, while in Braavos, she does her usual list of enemies, then says she would list the names of the Freys of the Crossing too, if she had known them, then says "One day I'll know...and then I'll kill them all." Serious foreshadowing?

Amazing the things I forget. I'd forgotten Arya explicitly knew of Frey guilt, and would be searching for specific names. My moniker says I agree that's serious foreshadowing!

****

Plot armor?

Benjen is dead or coldhands, Ned and Catelyn are dead, Robb is dead. We know the Starks will survive from Ned's foreshadowing "The Starks will survive", plus the original title of the "last" book, plus their central position in the narrative (well, until AFFC, anyway). But if they have "plot armor" it's pretty porous stuff, protecting at most some of the children.

[Lord Wyman Manderly]

:bowdown: Hail king Roose and Hand Walder!

Anyway, it will be interesting how much damage Stoneheart manages to do before she's taken down. I doubt she'll ever be successful but I can well imagine that she'll have a few victories of her own.

That looks like a splendid set up! Walder the Just and Roose the Wise to set things a right. And Ramsay as minister of public health of course. Ah, splendid indeed.

Well Uncat will probably get some more Frey`s hanged, but nothing that will have a devastating effect in the long run.I hope.

[Valmy]

Well Uncat will probably get some more Frey`s hanged, but nothing that will have a devastating effect in the long run.I hope.

Heh. I am always surprised at the assumption or the hope a few posters tend to make that major plot developements will go nowhere. They were just inserted into the story to fill pages because GRRM decided the books were too short.

[Gurkhal]

I think that Lady Stoneheart will go alot of places and cause alot of importance in the plot. I do not however think that these important parts will include her quest to kill all the Freys.

[Lord Wyman Manderly]

Heh. I am always surprised at the assumption or the hope a few posters tend to make that major plot developements will go nowhere. They were just inserted into the story to fill pages because GRRM decided the books were too short.

Well obviously there is some purpose with Uncats presence in the books. But admittedly I would be a bit disappointed if she and her band of merry bandits would topple house Frey on their own.

And who knows, maybe her plotline is not necessarily tied to the Riverlands. She can play many roles in the story yet. Other than just being some vindictive avenger zombie hanging Frey’s left and right.

That is my hope at least, that she will not have an unrealistic impact on the political developments in the Riverlands.

[Talleyrand]

its been awhile since I read the books but I thought that Stoneheart caused a rift in the BWB. Aren't they split now? those that are trying to protect the people and those that follow Stoneheart? either way I see them causing problems but they are no real threat to the Freys- if anything its helping Lord Frey by weeding out all the wanna-be heirs. Sansa I believe will be the one that causes the downfall of the Twins.

Yes IIRC Edric Dayne and some others aren't with Lady Stone heart

[Faint]

Here's the thing about Catelyn and the Brotherhood Without Banners that people have to answer to. She already existed before the theoretical five-year time gap -- indeed, she was the last person we were supposed to have seen before the gap started. As everyone knows, the image of her ruined face is the closing image of ASoS.

That being the case, is it an honest expectation that she would have done nothing during that time? We were supposed to re-join the story and the Brotherhood Without Banners would have just been lying low, biding their time? Obviously they were not going to be destroyed either, otherwise, why re-introduce Catelyn in the first place?

I think the answer to these questions is that she would have spent the whole time hanging Freys left and right, and getting rid of the time gap will do nothing to change that, except, she'll be destroying the Freys at a much accelerated rate.

[Lord Wyman Manderly]

Here's the thing about Catelyn and the Brotherhood Without Banners that people have to answer to. She already existed before the theoretical five-year time gap -- indeed, she was the last person we were supposed to have seen before the gap started. As everyone knows, the image of her ruined face is the closing image of ASoS.

That being the case, is it an honest expectation that she would have done nothing during that time? We were supposed to re-join the story and the Brotherhood Without Banners would have just been lying low, biding their time? Obviously they were not going to be destroyed either, otherwise, why re-introduce Catelyn in the first place?

I think the answer to these questions is that she would have spent the whole time hanging Freys left and right, and getting rid of the time gap will do nothing to change that, except, she'll be destroying the Freys at a much accelerated rate.

Well, there is no doubt she will wreak some havoc and hang some Frey´s still. However I doubt that diligence and passion in hanging will be paramount in causing the downfall of house Frey.

There are only so many people a band of outlaws can hang even five years time, with Frey dogs sniffing them out and Black Walder and probably numerous others at their heels.

I mean, three books left, thick as shit most probably. I think the focal point of the remainder of the series is unlikely to be the Riverlands. There is potentially R`hollor and Great Other business ahead, and who knows, maybe Cat tired from all the hanging will have some part to play in this?

I guess we will have to wait and see, won`t we?

[AvengingAryaFan]

we only know that Ser Rolph got Castamere, not that he got all the lands and incomes (the gold mines, for instance) that were once attached to the castle when it still belonged to House Reyne. And we also do know that the Iron Throne can take land away from lordly seats, and give it to other lords. Robert took away much land from House Darry, for example, and refused to give much land back to Houses Connington and Merryweather, who were exiled by Aerys.

So I'm pretty sure that we don't have to assume that Ser Rolph is now a Lord as great as Lord Reyne back in his time. Giving him Castamere, a very much ruined castle, could be as poisoned a gift as Harrenhal was for Vargo Hoat. I'm not sure that poor Rolph has the coin to rebuild it, or manage it once he can finally move in. And I'm pretty sure that the Lannisters still maintain the control over the gold mines which once belonged the Reynes.

It is entirely possible that Greywind's hostility towards Ser Rolph comes from the fact that he 'felt' the conspiracy about luring Robb into the honey trap of Jeyne - meaning that both the arrow and the conveniently close surrendering of the Crag after Robb was hurt could have been enough to make the direwolf suspect something.

Sybell might have been the Lady of the Crag, but Rolph was Lord Westerling's castellan. He was in charge of all the military stuff including the defense of the castle, so he would be the guy to arrange that Robb gets shot by this arrow. And this was no accident.

And then we should keen in mind that Rolph delivered Kevan's son Martyn Lannister alive and well to the Golden Tooth. Technically no important or difficult task, but Kevan was really grief-stricken after the murder of his son Willem, and with Lancel still fighting against death the safe return of his other son could have motivated him and Tywin to give a better reward to Ser Rolph than they originally intended.

Lord Varys, I'm satisfied you substantially understand my contentions, and I yours, yet I have a couple of quibbles:

Taking lands from Houses, such as Darry, Connington and Merryweather, is not the same as changing the definition of a particular estate, such as Castamere or Harrenhal (BTW, I agree both may be poisoned). Consequently, your examples don't actually support your contention that the definition of an estate (as such) is commonly changed.

Everything can't be spelled out, so implication is unavoidable. I'm inclined to rely on implications unless there are clues and reasons for it to be misleading. Sure, the hall was damaged, but I don't see any hint that the territory of the estate is diminished (except the circular one that otherwise Rolph's reward is too large).

As for a reason the implication of rich reward might be misleading: Well, we don't even know what Castamere originally encompassed - we only have Martin's own implication that it was quite substantial. Why would he imply substantiality, and then intend for us to diminish his implication? If he wanted that, why the silence? He controls the writing. The absence of hints that the lordship is a shell of its former self therefore makes it most reasonable to expect that Martin meant for Rolph's reward to appear extremely valuable. I mean, that's already a rather obscure clue that eludes most people; why would he cloud the issue even further by expecting us to assume the estate has changed (aside from hall damage)? Now, if the gold mines (of which I was unaware) were a separate property of the Reynes then I agree the Lannisters would probably keep them, but if they're part and parcel of a predefined Castamere estate then I don't see any basis for your confidence that the estate was broken up and parts of it were taken and retained by the Lannisters.

You did miss one of my points: that the difference between Grey Wind's attitude toward Sybell (unremarkable) and Rolph (highly hostile) contradicts your contention that Grey Wind's hostility could have been due to the honey trap conspiracy alone - because Sybell was necessarily involved in all of that conspiracy. But she was ignorant of the RW. Gads, I just realized I don't know exactly what Rolph did at the actual RW - that would bear on the discussion.

I agree Robb's small wound was no accident in view of the sudden surrender of the Crag. I strongly suspect (ISS) the festering was caused by Sybell potions (think Drogo's small wound festering). Note that a goal of a minor wound for Robb is in tension with a solitary goal of killing Robb. ISS Robb's ultimate death was a small part of Tywin's goal of destroying the entire power of the North, and that Tywin needed Robb alive to peel off the Freys from the North, and to seed the massacre. I agree this had to be planned before the arrow wound; beyond that we disagree, because I believe the magnitude of the reward that he offered Rolph almost requires that Tywin understood the vast potential value, and thus at least the detailed outline, of the RW conspiracy.

Your version suggests Tywin is a hands-off money man, willing to guarantee valuable marriages (the Lannisters are not the Freys, who have heirs aplenty) and a lordship for some vague idea that Robb will be killed and, what, the Freys angered? I cannot see Tywin, the long-time Hand and iron master of the Lannisters that he made resurgent, being so trusting and passive. I believe he must have literally "banked" on the plan having the potential to effect wholesale destruction of the North through treachery and specifically violation of guest right. His defense to Tyrion, for example, doesn't deny his culpability, but rather argues the greater good (an "end justifies the means" argument). Your contrary thesis is interesting, but in my view unlikely due to Tywin's dominant personality and the separate rich rewards he promised to Sybell and to Rolph.

BTW, are you suggesting Tywin originally promised Rolph Spicer a lesser reward, but then gave him Castamere as a sort of "tip" for particularly good service? If so, it seems highly conjectural.

Edit: a couple words for clarity.

[Tyler Snow]

In a word, Doomed.

I hope Lady Stoneheart slits old Walder Frey's throat. BwB will take out all the Freys.