The Wise Man's Fear V [Spoilers and speculation within]

[Re'lar Loki]

One thing regarding folly:

Let´s assume Abenthy knows a lot about the Chandrian - this becomes clear in his talk with Arliden about his song and in the fact that he leaves the troupe shortly before they are attacked (something like "the Chandrian will come soon, i can´t do anything about it, so I better leave now"). He also knows (crackpot here) that folly belongs to one of the Chandrian and is in some way special (unable to name? immune to sympathy? whatever...) - so he gives Kvothe the final advice to beware of that sword, which would be the greatest danger to the future Namer/Sympathist/Arcanist/Superhero Kvothe - indeed he presents folly as kind of trophy in his inn... This could also support the theory that Abenthy is an Amyr and wants to guide/protect Kvothe...

One other thing that came to my mind is the similarity between Iax/the Moon and Kvothe/Denna: Iax wants the moon - Kvothe wants Denna; the moon can be seen from everywhere - Denna appears wherever Kvothe goes; the moon is impossible to keep - so is Denna (runs away from everybody at last); the moon is ever-changing, appearing and disappearing all the time - so does Denna... It would be a great coincidence if Denna stumbles over Kvothe in every part of the world without deeper meaning...

We should also not forget that most stories we know about Kvothe are just stories - it might as well be that he never really killed a king/poet/angel, but it looked like that to other people... We know that people believed he had an amber ring to control demons, which he hadn´t; people thought he brought down lightning on the assassins sent by Ambrose, which he didn´t; people think the Adem have a secret word-fire, which they don´t; the whole thing with stories and rumors lets us take nothing for sure...

just my two cents :)

[thistlepong]

Welcome, Re'lar Loki. I'd be interested to see someone really investigate the Denna/Moon theory, whether it's metaphorically resonant or something more. You make a good point about stories. I'm reminded of a couple passages: Lanre's "Deceit and treachery brought me to it, but her blood is on my hands, and Lorren's "Your hand held the fire. Yours is the blame." Kvothe accepts responsibility for many things, regardless of the circumstances, so there might be some truth in the stories as well.

It might be worthwhile to put together the cases for Cinder and Bredon.

^{unJon's winky face might have been chum in the water...}

Cinder

• Ash and Cinder have similarities
  
• "Frederick the Flippant. Frank. Feran. Forue. Fordale. . ."
  
• The apparent presence of the Chandrian at the Mauthen Farm
  
• The apparent coincidence of Cinder among the bandits while Denna's in Vintas
  
• "He's surprisingly graceful."
  

An early point folk brought up is that Ferule means "slapping ruler" and potentially "cane" or "walking stick." Pat denied seeding the text with linguistic clues to identity in KKC. When I had the opportunity to ask him, he specifically cited his ignorance of Latin. In interviews, he talks about his interest in the differences between words rather than their similarities. This doesn't absolutely preclude Ferule's old meaning being indicative, but it does cast doubt. And that assumption casually ignores the presence of actual walking sticks in the narrative.

Bredon

• Matches Deoch’s description of the man Denna meets before Trebon.
  
• His colors: ash grey and charcoal
  
• His actual walking stick, described and repeated
  
• He's learning to dance.
  
• His absence from Severen coincident with Denna's
  

Apparently making lists of five is a discordian habit I cannot break.

The conversation outside the farm is a fascinating clue. It's also far more real, in a critical sense, than what Ferule might mean. Readers basically have to decide whether the wind, such as it may be, is saving him from saying the old name while somehow confirming Cinder or it’s shutting him up and providing another answer.

There's no comfortable way to reconcile the two without corrupting the story. Kvothe recognizes Cinder at night in the rain across a great distance during a battle by the way he moves alone. It'd be a little disappointing if he sat across from Bredon day after day in slack jawed ignorance. There's no reason Bredon can’t have some relationship to, or with, the Chandrian, either actively or historically, though.

[Gaston de Foix]

Welcome, Re'lar Loki. I'd be interested to see someone really investigate the Denna/Moon theory, whether it's metaphorically resonant or something more. You make a good point about stories. I'm reminded of a couple passages: Lanre's "Deceit and treachery brought me to it, but her blood is on my hands, and Lorren's "Your hand held the fire. Yours is the blame." Kvothe accepts responsibility for many things, regardless of the circumstances, so there might be some truth in the stories as well.

It might be worthwhile to put together the cases for Cinder and Bredon.

^{unJon's winky face might have been chum in the water...}

Cinder

• Ash and Cinder have similarities
  
• "Frederick the Flippant. Frank. Feran. Forue. Fordale. . ."
  
• The apparent presence of the Chandrian at the Mauthen Farm
  
• The apparent coincidence of Cinder among the bandits while Denna's in Vintas
  
• "He's surprisingly graceful."
  

An early point folk brought up is that Ferule means "slapping ruler" and potentially "cane" or "walking stick." Pat denied seeding the text with linguistic clues to identity in KKC. When I had the opportunity to ask him, he specifically cited his ignorance of Latin. In interviews, he talks about his interest in the differences between words rather than their similarities. This doesn't absolutely preclude Ferule's old meaning being indicative, but it does cast doubt. And that assumption casually ignores the presence of actual walking sticks in the narrative.

Bredon

• Matches Deoch’s description of the man Denna meets before Trebon.
  
• His colors: ash grey and charcoal
  
• His actual walking stick, described and repeated
  
• He's learning to dance.
  
• His absence from Severen coincident with Denna's
  

Apparently making lists of five is a discordian habit I cannot break.

to add to your list; Bredon says that he was a power in the Maer's court, Denna confirms that Bredon is a powerful man and has had dealings with the Maer.

There's also the modus operandi. Bredon has been conducting pagan rituals in his estates, disappears unexpectedly and strokes a white cat while talking about playing a beautiful game.

[kaythetall]

Something I was surprised Kvothe didn't notice was that the Adem were essentially a culture of musicians that play their body as an instrument.

The intense, blank expressions they have all the time are what we see all the time on musicians when they're totally absorbed in their performance. Their hands and Leithani, even the whole concept of 'right action' are a kind of performance of their body and choices.

This doesn't really change anything, I'm just surprised that Kvothe didn't have an insight of this sort that help him understand their culture and feel less ostracized for being a musician.

Musicians that insisted on their faces communicating whatever the music was expressing would be weird. Some small display of emotion, sure, but a constant 'big' expression would be disconcerting if we were trying to enjoy the music. That's not the basis of their complaint, of course, I just wanted to draw a comparison to our own understanding of music.

Kvothe realizing that would have helped him understand that the Adem don't hate musicians, they are musicians whose lives are a kind of structured improvisational performance.

They just hate the cultural norm of music. The Adem don't understand that music is a kind of Leithani of it's own. Beautiful right action that no one should be ashamed of.

[Spaceman Hobbes]

What does Haliax have that the other chandrian don't have?

It seems to me that Haliax isn't as powerful or significant as Kvotheville makes him out to be. The Chandrian don't seem to have that much respect for him, at least Cinder has enough courage (or spitefulness) to mock Haliax before Haliax shuts him up.

Is there some sort of power that Haliax has that the others don't? Why is he the leader anyway? We know about Haliax's story, how he was once Lanre. We know about the Chandrian as a group, how they are agents of terror trying to limit people's knowledge of them. What do we know about Haliax's power now? And just how can he protect the other Chandrian like he says? He seems to be losing his hold on the other Chandrian. Perhaps Cinder decides that he doesn't need Haliax after all....

HOWEVER, Haliax is the only Chandrian we know for certain is alive by the end of Book 3. We know of a few that still exist, but I'm not sure if Cinder still does. Maybe Haliax sent Cinder into the Eld as part of a probation, to cool off. I don't think the Chandrian get along smoothly based on their individual characters and Haliax's discussion with Cinder.

Anyway, why is Haliax so darn special?

Because he's Larne. My theory is that back in the day Larne and Lyra were fighting the Chandrian(except this is before they were know as the Chandarian). After Lyra dies, Larne goes to them for the power to bring her back. In exchange for this, they ask him to deliver Selitos' city to them. He does, the rest of the Chandrian double cross Larne, and then Selitos curses Larne(now Haliax) to work with the Chandrian for all eternity(or until they accomplish whatever they're trying to do).

That's probably a little crackpot. And it shifts some parts of Skarpi's story around.

[Merihathor]

I'd be interested to see someone really investigate the Denna/Moon theory, whether it's metaphorically resonant or something more.

That's been done, by myself and someone else. To paraphrase my theory and the other, the imagery and words used to describe Denna seem to hint at her relationship to the moon, as does Kvothe's choice for the selas flower for her. I don't have time right now to hunt the comments down, but they exist if you'd care to go back and read them :-)

[williamjm]

Cinder

• Ash and Cinder have similarities
  
• "Frederick the Flippant. Frank. Feran. Forue. Fordale. . ."
  
• The apparent presence of the Chandrian at the Mauthen Farm
  
• The apparent coincidence of Cinder among the bandits while Denna's in Vintas
  
• "He's surprisingly graceful."
  

I'm not convinced about point 4, is being with a few hundred miles of another character at around the same time really a significant coincidence?

[two_by_two]

That's been done, by myself and someone else. To paraphrase my theory and the other, the imagery and words used to describe Denna seem to hint at her relationship to the moon, as does Kvothe's choice for the selas flower for her. I don't have time right now to hunt the comments down, but they exist if you'd care to go back and read them :-)

I suggested the possible meaning of the choice of a selas flower here (the sixth paragraph; it's a huge post). Again, Pat has said that he didn't search for meaning in other languages, but sel as a root for moon is so commonly used in English that it would be hard to miss.

[Yallow]

I don't get the whole dancing connection. Bredon is supposed to be learning, he shouldn't be that good.

Regarding the "Denna is a Chandrian" I've actually been considering that since The Name of the Wind. It certainly counts as a betrayal, doesn't it ;) We don't actually know how old Denna is, only that she's around Kvothe's age (or looks that way). Maybe the reason why she's so secretive is because she is a Chandrian. Remember there is that female Chandrian with all her clothes off, described by Nina and hinted to be Alenta from the Adem song. Certainly fits in with Denna's profession, eh? Here I am, quoting something else from that same passage in Name of the Wind. This is when Kvothe tries to explain the "Chandrian did this" theory to her.

"Do you know that children's song?" Denna looked at me blankly, so I sang:

"When the hearthfire turns to blue,

What to do? What to do?

Run outside. Run and hide.

When your bright sword turns to rust?

Who to trust? Who to trust?

Stand alone. Standing stone.

Denna grew paler as she realized what I was implying. She nodded and chanted the chorus softly to herself:

See a woman pale as snow?

Silent come and silent go.

What's their plan? What's their plan?

Chandrian. Chandrian.

If you'll assume that Denna is a Chandrian, this makes some sense why she goes so pale. Kvothe says her skin is pale, eh? Possibly the best evidence is that she is the sole survivor of the massacre at the Mauthen farm, and has surprisingly little to say about it. I guess it makes sense if Cinder is Master Ash if you buy my theory that "Cinder wants to take over the Chandrian". C'mon, PR can't make 7 2D characters that play so big a role!

[Yallow]

Okay, just figured that the war fought in the present setting is a civil war, not Atur vs. Vintas. Kote makes several references to fighting off rebels in Meneras in NOTW.

[thistlepong]

That's been done, by myself and someone else. To paraphrase my theory and the other, the imagery and words used to describe Denna seem to hint at her relationship to the moon, as does Kvothe's choice for the selas flower for her. I don't have time right now to hunt the comments down, but they exist if you'd care to go back and read them :-)

Merihathor, two by two, I don't mean to slight you. Other folks have pointed to a phrase or a bit here and there as well, but I haven't seen the ideas collected or checked together. It would be fascinating to find out it was more than incidental is all.

Having noted a possible connection between Diane/Denna and Selene/Selas, how solid is it, how well does it bear out? Two, you mentioned it in V.203, V.220, and V.258. I asked you about it in V.267. There's a lot there, but it's incomplete. For example, you connect Auri to Aura, companion of Artemis (Selene, Diane) but don't connect her to Selas or Denna. Why not?

I asked Pat about linguistic/etymological clues 'cause I was... well... just look:

Three names in proximity dealing with sound...

Stapes inner ear bone

Meluan I make noise

Tempi plural of tempo

Six degrees of digression...

Maershon Lerand Alveron

Lean moon, The edge of truth

or maybe just an old word for Mayor…

Edit: Merihathor's post about Denna and the moon

[thistlepong]

So I looked at her first appearance.

Chapter 32: Coppers, Cobblers, and Crowds

First day: no mention of the moon

I assumed the girl was a passenger like myself. She was my age, perhaps a year older,

(4247)

You bother the girl. Bad things happen.”

(4252)

"An Arcanist taught me a little,” I explained. I watched as Roent went to speak to his wife. The dark-haired girl looked in my direction and smiled.

(4271)

• We see what we expect to see. Denna looks 16, then 26, then 16 again.
  
  
• What happens when he bothers Denna? Off the top of my head he's sent to The Eld.
  
  
• Is it coincidental she looks when he mentions an Arcanist?

Chapter 33: A Sea of Stars

Second day: no mention of the moon

While my fingers worked, I studied the side of her face, admiring the line of her jaw, the curve of her neck into her shoulder.

(4339)

Denna looked down at her hands, fidgeting with a ring on her finger, twisting it. I caught a glimpse of silver and a pale blue stone

. (4358)

She raised an eyebrow, looking ten years older. “So certain.” She smiled and was suddenly young again.

(4363)

• First resemblence to Meluan's strong jaw and the proud and graceful line of her neck.
  
  
• Is she just fidgetting or is it some sort of sympathetic signalling?
  
  
• We see what we expect to see, so similar to Chronicler watching Kvothe.

Third day: comparison

Her skin was more luminous than the moon,

(4385)

• The moon isn't mentioned here, but comes up when he thinks about it.
  
  
• Draws a comparison to Meluan's pale skin.

Chapter 34: Yet to Learn

Forth day: in remembrance

remembering the way Denna had looked last night with the moon reflecting off the water behind her.

(4410)

• There's another theory that in some scenes the moon only appears when he remembers them, not while he's with her.

It certainly looks like there's a connection even in the first scenes. I just don't know how consistent it is. Nor do I know what bits are important. The similarities to Meluan grow more intense. Scenes with Denna and the moon grow more frequent. The parallels between Denna and Kvothe and the tragic lover legends, including Jax and Ludis, align. But do they provide clues?

And that's all before the interaction really gets going... So yah, it'd be interesting to see how often and in what capacity the moon figures into her arc. It'd be interesting to list all her names. It'd also take a lot of time.

[two_by_two]

So I looked at her first appearance.

It certainly looks like there's a connection even in the first scenes. I just don't know how consistent it is. Nor do I know what bits are important. The similarities to Meluan grow more intense. Scenes with Denna and the moon grow more frequent. The parallels between Denna and Kvothe and the tragic lover legends, including Jax and Ludis, align. But do they provide clues?

And that's all before the interaction really gets going... So yah, it'd be interesting to see how often and in what capacity the moon figures into her arc. It'd be interesting to list all her names. It'd also take a lot of time.

Excellently noticed. I'm currently putting together a post about the moon, moon goddesses, names, etc. I'll add to that finding moon references around Denna.

[KyleLitke]

In regards to the "betrayal" issue, I think some of you might be overthinking the trust aspect of it. You don't need to trust someone implicitly in all manner of things to be betrayed by them. Kvothe, I agree, does not trust Bredon or Denna implicitly in all aspects of his life, but he absolutely does trust them in some ways. He revealed more to Bredon than he did to anyone else there. He certainly doesn't think Denna would betray him...honestly, if the first chapter of book three had Denna outright giving up Kvothe to Ambrose (say, revealing Kvothe stole the ring back, and expressing a willingness to testify to the University about it), not accidently but intentionally, are you guys seriously saying Kvothe would just shrug and say "Totally expected that, I'm not at all betrayed by this!" Of course not, that would absolutely be a betrayal. Even the Maer could betray him, and he barely trusts him at all. But he did reveal the whole Amyr thing to the Maer (even if he stopped short of discussing the Chandrian).

All of that said, a betrayal by Sim would probably mean more since he does seem to trust him more than anyone else. But to say people like Denna are incapable of betrayal because of a lack of trust, I think you're really overthinking that.

[williamjm]

I don't get the whole dancing connection. Bredon is supposed to be learning, he shouldn't be that good.

Denna says that he's "surprisingly good" which might be relative to what she expects. If, for example, her patron used a walking stick then she might well be surprised if he was a capable dancer even if he wasn't actually particularly brilliant at it.

If you'll assume that Denna is a Chandrian, this makes some sense why she goes so pale. Kvothe says her skin is pale, eh?

I think that's extremely tenuous, unless you think having a pale complexion is unusual.

[Gaston de Foix]

"Denna grinned proudly. Her teeth were white against the light nut color (egad! American spelling..) of her travel-tanned face." (Chapter 64, Flight, WMF). If paleness is a sign of the Chandrian, one would expect it to be somewhat more permanent. Obviously I don't think Denna is Chandrian.

[Yallow]

"Denna grinned proudly. Her teeth were white against the light nut color (egad! American spelling..) of her travel-tanned face." (Chapter 64, Flight, WMF). If paleness is a sign of the Chandrian, one would expect it to be somewhat more permanent. Obviously I don't think Denna is Chandrian.

Wouldn't be the first time PR made some continuity errors ;)

This is one of my favorite theories. I can't give up /that/ easily.

[Yallow]

Excellently noticed. I'm currently putting together a post about the moon, moon goddesses, names, etc. I'll add to that finding moon references around Denna.

Most of Denna's pseudonyms begin with a D. Dianne, Dyanae, Dinnah, Dinael (can't remember any more right now) but there is also another one, Alora, which she uses in Severen. Why so different all of a sudden?

[unJon]

"Denna grinned proudly. Her teeth were white against the light nut color (egad! American spelling..) of her travel-tanned face." (Chapter 64, Flight, WMF). If paleness is a sign of the Chandrian, one would expect it to be somewhat more permanent. Obviously I don't think Denna is Chandrian.

Not true. It is said that the Chandrian can hide their signs. (I'm not endorsing this theory, though I do find it intriguing.)

[Yallow]

Continuity error or no: When Denna sings her song, Kvothe warns her about the Chandrian. She asks, "What kind of a child are you?" rather scornfully (I wanted to smack her). But we know she knows the Chandrian are real because of what happened at the Mauthen farm. Either that was a PR error (rather big one) or...Denna is secretly a Chandrian/Chandrian agent and is trying to throw Kvothe off the scent.

I don't know why the Chandrian would be interested in Kvothe though.