Stannis, raging hypocrite?

[King_In_The_North]

I think the main problem with Stannis-haters is that their hate is mostly based on things Stannis never did/said.

[fassreiter]

I think the main problem with Stannis fanboys is that they think everyone who points out his flaws is a Stannis hater.

[mediocre cheese]

No - you're dead wrong. A religious fanatic is someone who does those things because of their belief in a religion. Do you really think, reading Stannis' character, that he's a fervent believer in R'hllor? Again, if that's what you take away from Stannis, I really think you're reading it wrong.

Your right, he is significantly worse. He burns septs and godswoods, not because he believes that they are more false than r'hllor, but because melisandre wields temporal power and he wishes to to appease her. He is willing to burn and destroy the sacred places of others not out of religious devotion, but because he's greedy for power. His actions are terrible in any light, no matter what his beliefs for doing do.

Do you think if I burned a church or a mosque to the ground the worshipers there would forgive me if I was like "I'm not doing this because of a fervent belief in another religion. I just burned your church/mosque because some of my followers are religious fanatics, and I got too throw them some bones now and then"? Of course not.

[lylebot]

I'm surprised. I read the thread title and thought "Stannis a hypocrite? Doesn't everyone already agree with that?" But it appears I was wrong.

Here's why I think Stannis is a hypocrite: he presents himself as an avatar of justice, yet his claim to the Iron Throne is fundamentally unjust. There is no justice in someone gaining power over millions for no reason other than that their brother/father/other blood relation died, regardless of the law.

Is that his fault? I guess you can't entirely blame him for going along with the ancient laws of the kingdom, especially when they work in his favor. But a truly just man would work to change the laws that are unjust, not merely uphold all laws regardless of whether they're just or not. (Though I might further add that the law says Tommen is king, and unless Stannis has ironclad proof---which he doens't, unless Westerosi know a lot more about genetics than they're letting on---then his idea of "justice" would require him to support Tommen's claim.)

[brashcandy]

Your right, he is significantly worse. He burns septs and godswoods, not because he believes that they are more false than r'hllor, but because melisandre wields temporal power and he wishes to to appease her. He is willing to burn and destroy the sacred places of others not out of religious devotion, but because he's greedy for power. His actions are terrible in any light, no matter what his beliefs for doing do.

Do you think if a burned a church or a mosque to the ground the worshipers there would forgive me if I was like "I'm not doing this because of a fervent belief in another religion. I just burned your church/mosque because some of my followers are religious fanatics, and I got too throw them some bones now and then"? Of course not.

I know, this defence that Stannis isn't a hypocrite because he doesn't believe in any religion is bizarre and preposterous to me. All it does is highlight that the man is even more of a low life because he doesn't even have a "good" reason for attacking them. It's all about what he needs to do to attain the throne, but when others (like Cersei, Renly, et al) do what they have to do to keep it or gain it, he has major problems with it. My main problem with Stannis is that nothing is off limits with him: nothing sacred, not his own family, nothing must stand in his way of getting crowned. This would be all fine and well if he didn't pretend his cause was righteous and justified, and would admit that's he playing the same nasty game as everyone else. That he doesn't does makes him a raging hypocrite.

[LuisDantas]

I don't think Stannis is a hypocrite, at least not consciously so.

I think he is a weakling, an immature fool who lacks vision and has a hard time thinking outside the box that he built as his confort zone.

He sort of confesses that time and again, such as when he tells Davos in ACOK why he renounced the Seven and adopted the R'hlorr faith, when he talks about Proudwing. The guy simply lacks the courage to be true. That is why he clings so desperately to superficial evidence that he is faithful to his own principles, such as when he cut Davos' fingers or when he claimed that his own desire for the Throne is irrelevant to his decision to pursue it.

Even more telling is his role in the death of Renly. Had he put a mind to it, he would realize that he is only helping the Lannisters by choosing to fight Renly that early on. A wiser man would have allied with Renly and ensured the continued support of House Tyrell to their efforts to depose the Lannisters. Instead, Stannis basically forced the Tyrells into supporting the Lannisters themselves, which may well have been the decisive fact of the War of the Five Kings.

The guy hides between weak rationalizations just because they promise him a life of influence and acknowledgement. And ends up in bed (even literally, it seems) with the likes of Melisandre to pursue that path.

Most unwise. I like Stannis as a fictional character, but I would utterly despise him in real life. He is the worst kind of feeble person, the one who hides behind a facade of strength.

[ghost the direwolf]

I know, this defence that Stannis isn't a hypocrite because he doesn't believe in any religion is bizarre and preposterous to me. All it does is highlight that the man is even more of a low life because he doesn't even have a "good" reason for attacking them. It's all about what he needs to do to attain the throne, but when others (like Cersei, Renly, et al) do what they have to do to keep it or gain it, he has major problems with it. My main problem with Stannis is that nothing is off limits with him: nothing sacred, not his own family, nothing must stand in his way of getting crowned. This would be all fine and well if he didn't pretend his cause was righteous and justified, and would admit that's he playing the same nasty game as everyone else. That he doesn't does makes him a raging hypocrite.

You said it all!

[Kate Poem]

My main problem with Stannis is that nothing is off limits with him: nothing sacred, not his own family, nothing must stand in his way of getting crowned. This would be all fine and well if he didn't pretend his cause was righteous and justified, and would admit that's he playing the same nasty game as everyone else. That he doesn't does makes him a raging hypocrite.

Nothing sacred? What is sacred for him? Seven? He does'nt believe in them after death of his parents.

His family? Renly was traitor. He had his King's proposition (Crown Prince, Small Council) in his backside, he wanted kill his older brother and to be a king now. He died quickly.

Shireen is alive. He did'nt send no one after Edric Storm. He did'nt punish Davos Seaworth for his nephew's escape, he rewarded him.

His did'nt pretend. His cause IS righteous and justified, if he is real heir of Robert. He is.

I don't think Stannis is a hypocrite, at least not consciously so.

I think he is a weakling, an immature fool who lacks vision and has a hard time thinking outside the box that he built as his confort zone.

Even more telling is his role in the death of Renly. Had he put a mind to it, he would realize that he is only helping the Lannisters by choosing to fight Renly that early on. A wiser man would have allied with Renly and ensured the continued support of House Tyrell to their efforts to depose the Lannisters. Instead, Stannis basically forced the Tyrells into supporting the Lannisters themselves, which may well have been the decisive fact of the War of the Five Kings.

You are wrong. King Stannis did everything what can do. He said his brother - traitor "You'll become Heir of Iron Throne, you'll be in my Small Council if you'll bend a knee".

He was his older brother, his liege, Head of the House Baratheon.

Could he do more? Yes, he could die in the battle. Or make fool from himself and all older, boring (or not), stiff (or not), wearing common clothes (or pretty), drinking water with salt (or wine), eating common food (or chicken in honey) HEIRS in Westeros and bend a knee.

Tyrells. Renly could try and succes in persvasion. A perspective of Princess Margaery, wife of Heir to the Iron Throne is delicious too, I think. Renly's honor and good opinion would be safe.

He had'nt lost his "face". He had'nt lost nothing.

But he wanted be king immediately. F...k brother, f... k "nephews" and their rights, f...k nieces. It was'nt good, fair etc. etc.

[Stannis the Great]

Lets evaluate Stannis' moves since the beginning of the whole story.

1. He and Jon find out about the incest and that the royal children are Jaime's and not Robert's. Before they can act on this information, Littlefinger has Lysa poison Jon and to point the finger at the Lannisters. Stannis seeing that he (is his family at King's Landing?) is in danger and flees to Dragonstone.

Presumably he didn't tell Robert either due to lack of time or lack of evidence.

2. Stays on Dragonstone and ignores Ned Stark's requests to return to the Small Council.

I'm assuming he doesn't receive Ned Stark's letter about the incest and his support for Stannis to be king. At this point Stannis probably should have contacted the Storm lords to build up support but remember at this point Robert is still alive and kicking.

3. Receives news that Robert is dead, Renly has fled, married Marg Tyrell and has declared himself King.

Stannis declares himself King however he has very little support from the Storm Lords and the Tyrells and their bannermen have put their support behind Renly. Recognises at this point that Mel wields serious power and 'converts' to R'hollor to use her power. He sends letters out throughout the realm stating that he is the rightful king due to the Lannister twincest.

4. Goes to Renly in order to persuade him to give up his claim in return for a Small Council Seat, Storm's End (Renly already has it) and to become heir to the throne.

This is reasonable by Stannis however he lacks diplomatic skills and Renly refuses to acknowledge Stannis as King (stating that the laws of succession are nothing compared to the right to rule via conquest as Robert had). Mel then births a shadowbaby which assassinates Renly.

5. Recruits majority of Renly's force into his own.

Stannis could have tried to get the Tyrells and their bannermen but they were never going to ally themselves with Stannis due to Loras' love for Renly. The Tyrells manage to steal most of the supplies and kill a lot of Florents. Stannis realised that refusing to integrate the rest of Renly's host due to honour was idiotic and did the pragmatic and obvious thing.

6. Attacks King's Landing

He should have won this even with the disaster of the wildfire however the Tyrells appearing with Tywin Lannister ruined the assault on King's Landing and he retreats to Dragonstone.

7. Refuses to sacrifice Edric Storm but is under relentless pressure from Mel to do so. Stannis was near breaking point but Davos saves him the choice by helping Edric to escape to the Stepstones.

Now at this point with Stannis' sense of justice he probably should have killed Davos and send ships to retrieve Edric however he recognises this as a fait accompli. He frees Davos and sacrifices one of the major Florents for treason. He receives the letter about the Night's Watch requesting aid (before the sacrifice) and heeds Davos' advice to help them.

8. Travels to the Wall and defeats the Wildling host basically saving the day.

He recognises the rather obvious fact that the Wildlings should be let into the realm to prevent them being used as wights. He offers Jon Snow (quite reasonably) legitimacy, Winterfell and Val as he sees that the North would unite behind a Stark and reduce the influence of the Lannisters in the North.

9. Seeks out support from the Northern Lords

Sends Davos to White Harbour to get Manderley. Takes Jon Snow's advice not to attack the Dreadfort continuing the out-of-character will to listen to advice and not be stubborn. Raises the mountain clans to his cause of removing the Boltons from power and saving 'Arya Stark'. Attacks the Iron Men to unite the Northerners behind him and succesfully takes Deepwood Motte and captures Asha Greyjoy. He returns Deepwoode Motte to its rightful lord and receives his support.

10. Attack on Winterfell

Does a suicidal march on Winterfell with a snowstorm raging, supplies low and morale low. Would have frozen to death had it not been for Manderley and the Hooded Man causing strife between Boltons' troops forcing him to attack Stannis. Learns of Karstark's betrayal from the representative of the Iron Bank who also hands him Theon and 'Arya Stark'.

Up to 9 Stannis made reasonable decisions. He could have been a lot more diplomatic but you have to accept he didn't do anything extremely stupid until 10.

[mediocre cheese]

Nothing sacred? What is sacred for him? Seven? He does'nt believe in them after death of his parents.

The fact that he doesn't believe in them doesn't give him the right to burn septs. I don't believe in islam, I can't go around burning mosques. Ned doesn't believe in the seven either, but he builds catelyn a sept in winterfell, because he recognizes that religious beliefs are important to people and you should try and respect the religious beliefs of others. A ruler especially should know this. Aegon the conqueror wouldn't have become king if he hadn't abandonded valaryian gods for the seven, Aegon dates his reign from being crowned by the high septon.

If Stannis wants to rule westeros, he has to follow, or at least tolerate the dominant religion(s) of westeros. When kings fail to do that they get overthrown, look at James II and the glorious revolution. Even if the seven aren't sacred to him, they are sacred to others and he as a king has a duty not to destroy his people's temples and sacred objects.

His did'nt pretend. His cause IS righteous and justified, if he is real heir of Robert. He is.

I'd personally say fighting a war to preserve the law of primogeniture is neither righteous nor justified. As you may have noticed, primogeniture has been abandoned in recent centuries, as its absurd (as renly rightly notes).

That said, your right, he is robert's "real heir". But Robert is not the king by blood. Robert is a usurper (not that there's something inherently wrong with that). After Aerys dies the thrown should rightfully pass to his heir, who is viserys his son. Stannis never once mentions this than. He never says "Robert you can't take the thrown, the laws of primogeniture dynastic succession dictate viserys should be king". When other people, like viserys get cheated of their dynastic inheritance, he couldn't care less. But when he's being cheated out of his, then he starts a war over it. That is hypocritical plain and simple.

If Stannis truly cared about who the rightful king was by blood, he'd never serve robert at all. He'd support viserys, who is the heir by blood. But he doesn't.

Edit:

None of which is too say I think viserys should be king, or that robert was somehow wrong in usurping the crown. The crown goes to the guy who can claim it, whether that comes from dynastic succession (like aerys), or from conquest like Robert. If stannis can claim the throne than he's king. But if dany or tommen or shagga son of dolf can they would be the same as well. If stannis want's to be king, he should try and convince people of why he'd be a good ruler, and try and work within the system, using marriage alliance and what not. Instead he endlessly whines about how nobody has any honor because they refuse to fight for him. He believes its the duty of northerners who he's never met and doesn't even know existed to fight for him, right after he has just burned weirwood branches.

[the judge]

I'll just say that he is really adamant regarding legal issues, which reminds me of the old latin brocardus "dura lex, sed lex"...

But, in my view, what makes him a raging hypocrite is that he bends some laws when convenient, like when he proposes to Jon Snow to abandon the NW and become Lord of Winterfell. A brother of the NW serves for life, that is clearly the law. I dont recall anyone who left the NW without being called a deserter (unlike the Kingsguard). However, violating that silly norm is not a problem to Stannis...

[Frey Pie]

Stannis is too stubborn for his and westeros' own good. I have mixed feelings towards him-i like his uncompromising stance towards many things but it also frustrates me. His move to following the lord of light is a big mark against him. Nobody has a right to tell anyone what to believe and burning septs and weirwoods is wrong.

However hes still one of my favourite characters. For someone who is so "just" hes done alot wrong. That said hes the only one whos making a move to fight the real enemy. From his point of view he is the rightful king. Last and mostly hes got the support of the best man left in the series-Davos.

[Cydal]

Stannis is too stubborn for his and westeros' own good. I have mixed feelings towards him-i like his uncompromising stance towards many things but it also frustrates me. His move to following the lord of light is a big mark against him. Nobody has a right to tell anyone what to believe and burning septs and weirwoods is wrong.

However hes still one of my favourite characters. For someone who is so "just" hes done alot wrong. That said hes the only one whos making a move to fight the real enemy. From his point of view he is the rightful king. Last and mostly hes got the support of the best man left in the series-Davos.

Ah but he actually never tells anyone what to worship. He burned the septs at Dragonstone because as the Lord of Dragonstone, they are his. King's men and Davos kept on worshipping the seven. As for the wildlings, well that was the condition of them coming inside and that was all Mel's idea and they didn't even stick with for long.

[Verboten]

Am I the only one who thinks Stannis does believe in Rh'llor? He is afraid to believe because of the things he's seen, like the long night, but I think he believes in the power of the Red God. He does so in a different way than Melisandre but it is still belief. Not everyone is moved to passion about these things, but I honestly feel that a religion based around the conflict between Good and Evil fits Stannis' personal moral code very well.

[Kate Poem]

Maybe You're right, Verboten.

I completely agree with Stannis The Great.

AverageCheese, I... Did You read about Stannis's conflict between duty to his liege lord - Robert and duty to Aerys? What could do Renly in this situation? Hmmm.

I know, I know, it does'nt matter now.

Many people in his service worshipped Seven. For example Davos. He is alive.

Worshipper of Rh'llor was burnt for treason. He died. Not for faith in Rh'llor.

I think for king Stannis most important is loyalty to him.

After death of his brother, when Renly crowned himself, when Iron Throne is in Lannister's clutches, with Balon Greyjoy's fleet in alert, with Robb, who crowned himself too - he should try?

He tried, but he failed. "Robert could piss in the goblet and the people... I gave them clear water and the people" ... do You remember that phrase?

All knew about him. Boring, stiff, he has ugly daughter, ugly wife, he does'nt sugarcoat, lie, just, fair, stern, hard working, good commander in the battle, unloved, un-charismatic, he did'nt drink wine etc. etc.

And what with that? It is so bad, all of it?

Everything would be better, but Renly destroyed any chance for peace. He could be Crown Prince, damnit!

AverageCheese, did Your suggestion is... Stannis should what, murder Selyse and marry Margaery Tyrell or what?

I don't understand.

[mediocre cheese]

Ah but he actually never tells anyone what to worship. He burned the septs at Dragonstone because as the Lord of Dragonstone, they are his. King's men and Davos kept on worshipping the seven. As for the wildlings, well that was the condition of them coming inside and that was all Mel's idea and they didn't even stick with for long.

He is lord of dragonstone in the same way emmon frey is lord of riverrun and ramsay bolton is lord of winterfell. In that he conquered/stole it from its ancestral inhabitants and now rules it despite having no blood claim to it. And a lord's rights are not absolute. He certainly cannot burn the holy places of his people, any more than a real medieval lord could burn his people's churches.

And the idea that burning the weirwood branches is melisandre's idea is really weak. Stannis claims to be king, he should overrule her. Making the wilidings burn weirwoods was really cruel, and that stannis allowed it showed how weak he is. Killing the millers son's was ramsay's idea, but theon is rightly blamed for it. If you allow someone else's intolerant and petty ideas to be implemented your no better than the idea's originator.

Did You read about Stannis's conflict between duty to his liege lord - Robert and duty to Aerys? What could do Renly in this situation? Hmmm.

Robert has no right to the throne and stannis knows this. He has no complaints against him taking the throne, even though viserys, who is the rightful king has a better claim. He could have said "Robert your my liege lord and I support you in a rightful war to preserve your life, and fight a mad king, but once that mad king is defeated, you have no right to claim the throne ahead of viserys, who has the better claim". He didn't because he doesn't care about dynastic claims, its the same with sansa, she is the rightful heir of winterfell, yet he is willing to pass her over and appoint jon snow as lord of winterfell because sansa's is married to tyrion.

Stannis doesn't care about anyone else being cheated of their dynastic claims. He only cares when it happens to him. If he was truly a just and fair man (as you say he is), he would have never have ruled dragonstone at all. Dragonstone is the ancestral home of house targaryen, built by the ancient valyrians. He has no right to it, any more than ramsay bolton has the right to winterfell. He stole it from its rightful inhabitants. He is a small-minded petty and hypocritical man

Many people in his service worshipped Seven. For example Davos. He is alive.

Stannis burns septs and godswoods. As I said, what would happen if a real-life ruler burned a mosque or a church. Davos is alive because he allows stannis to burn septs, those who try and stop stannis from burning their sacred objects are themselves murdered. The king can't burn his people's places of worship. Any king who does that is not fit to be king

AverageCheese, did Your suggestion is... Stannis should what, murder Selyse and marry Margaery Tyrell or what?

He could have listened to cressen and offered to betroth shireen to robert arryn. Or make an alliance with robb stark and crown himself king of the south in exchange for robb being named king of the north. He refuses to do any of this, and allows cressen to die, while listening to melisandre. When he goes north he balks at the idea of asking others to help him, he says its their duty. It is no such thing. He has never met anyone in the north, and no one there owes him anything. That's his whole problem, he thinks people should follow him, because its their duty, which is ridiculous.

[LuisDantas]

(...)

His cause IS righteous and justified, if he is real heir of Robert. He is.

(...)

You are wrong. King Stannis did everything what can do. He said his brother - traitor "You'll become Heir of Iron Throne, you'll be in my Small Council if you'll bend a knee".

He was his older brother, his liege, Head of the House Baratheon.

If we are willing to go by that route, why not go all the way and give the Throne back to the Targaryens?

When push comes to shove, thrones are occupied by those who prove influential enough to get away with sitting on them. There is no such things as an inherent right to rule. As Mad Aerys learned so painfully from Jaime, Robert and Ned.

If we must recognize Robert's claim to the throne as legitimate, then his rebellion against Aerys must be legitimate as well. Therefore, Renly's open rebellion (which, one must note, makes no false claims) is not a betrayal until and unless some sort of higher duty is demonstrated or promised.

It is not Renly's fault (nor Stannis' virtue) that hereditary monarchy is such a silly concept that makes no allowance for actual fitness to rule.

[LuisDantas]

Am I the only one who thinks Stannis does believe in Rh'llor? He is afraid to believe because of the things he's seen, like the long night, but I think he believes in the power of the Red God. He does so in a different way than Melisandre but it is still belief. Not everyone is moved to passion about these things, but I honestly feel that a religion based around the conflict between Good and Evil fits Stannis' personal moral code very well.

Of course he believes in Rh'llor's power. He has seen that it is real. It is not really a matter of faith or even of opinion.

You've lost me completely when you say that such a faith fits Stannis, anyway. For one thing, Rh'llor's faith is not at all based on good vs evil - if it were, Melisandre would never have the power to create killer shadows, for one. Unless we are to understand that Melisandre is the Song-world equivalent of a real-power satanist, I guess. But no, Rh'llors faith is based on seeking power to overcome one's opponents, simple as that. It likes to present itself as a crusade for overcoming evil, but it is a rather transparent lie.

As for Stannis moral code, I fear he doesn't have much of one in the first place. He is a being of duty, and he hides behind duty in order to avoid having moral responsibility. He is immature like that, as he has shown time and again when he let Melisandre and even Davos make the moral choices that must be his in the first place.

[LuisDantas]

Lets evaluate Stannis' moves since the beginning of the whole story.

(...)

2. Stays on Dragonstone and ignores Ned Stark's requests to return to the Small Council.

I'm assuming he doesn't receive Ned Stark's letter about the incest and his support for Stannis to be king. At this point Stannis probably should have contacted the Storm lords to build up support but remember at this point Robert is still alive and kicking.

I'm not sure it would have made much of a difference whether or not he received Ned's letter and/or pledged for the Stormlands' support. Besides, as you say, with Robert alive he has little reason to act.

3. Receives news that Robert is dead, Renly has fled, married Marg Tyrell and has declared himself King.

Stannis declares himself King however he has very little support from the Storm Lords and the Tyrells and their bannermen have put their support behind Renly. Recognises at this point that Mel wields serious power and 'converts' to R'hollor to use her power. He sends letters out throughout the realm stating that he is the rightful king due to the Lannister twincest.

Failing to recognize the need to negotiate with Renly was quite stupid. As was giving any attention at all to Melisandre, the butcher in scarlet.

4. Goes to Renly in order to persuade him to give up his claim in return for a Small Council Seat, Storm's End (Renly already has it) and to become heir to the throne.

This is reasonable by Stannis however he lacks diplomatic skills and Renly refuses to acknowledge Stannis as King (stating that the laws of succession are nothing compared to the right to rule via conquest as Robert had). Mel then births a shadowbaby which assassinates Renly.

This was stupider yet. While it made his supporters grow in number, it completely undermined his moral legitimacy. Many of his newfound supporters are with him only due to a lack of choice and are therefore unreliable. And it cost him the undying enmity of the Tyrells, which may well have been the decisive factor of the War.

5. Recruits majority of Renly's force into his own.

Stannis could have tried to get the Tyrells and their bannermen but they were never going to ally themselves with Stannis due to Loras' love for Renly. The Tyrells manage to steal most of the supplies and kill a lot of Florents. Stannis realised that refusing to integrate the rest of Renly's host due to honour was idiotic and did the pragmatic and obvious thing.

They would never submit to Stannis, but they would easily negotiate a non-violence deal with him. Stannis commited yet another grave mistake, blinded by his stubborn, immature pride.

6. Attacks King's Landing

He should have won this even with the disaster of the wildfire however the Tyrells appearing with Tywin Lannister ruined the assault on King's Landing and he retreats to Dragonstone.

And it was his fault, since it was him who pushed the Tyrells into supporting the Lannisters.

7. Refuses to sacrifice Edric Storm but is under relentless pressure from Mel to do so. Stannis was near breaking point but Davos saves him the choice by helping Edric to escape to the Stepstones.

Now at this point with Stannis' sense of justice he probably should have killed Davos and send ships to retrieve Edric however he recognises this as a fait accompli. He frees Davos and sacrifices one of the major Florents for treason. He receives the letter about the Night's Watch requesting aid (before the sacrifice) and heeds Davos' advice to help them.

I must have misunderstood. Surely you aren't saying that Stannis should have killed Davos because he defended Edric's life?

8. Travels to the Wall and defeats the Wildling host basically saving the day.

He recognises the rather obvious fact that the Wildlings should be let into the realm to prevent them being used as wights. He offers Jon Snow (quite reasonably) legitimacy, Winterfell and Val as he sees that the North would unite behind a Stark and reduce the influence of the Lannisters in the North.

9. Seeks out support from the Northern Lords

Sends Davos to White Harbour to get Manderley. Takes Jon Snow's advice not to attack the Dreadfort continuing the out-of-character will to listen to advice and not be stubborn. Raises the mountain clans to his cause of removing the Boltons from power and saving 'Arya Stark'. Attacks the Iron Men to unite the Northerners behind him and succesfully takes Deepwood Motte and captures Asha Greyjoy. He returns Deepwoode Motte to its rightful lord and receives his support.

10. Attack on Winterfell

Does a suicidal march on Winterfell with a snowstorm raging, supplies low and morale low. Would have frozen to death had it not been for Manderley and the Hooded Man causing strife between Boltons' troops forcing him to attack Stannis. Learns of Karstark's betrayal from the representative of the Iron Bank who also hands him Theon and 'Arya Stark'.

Up to 9 Stannis made reasonable decisions. He could have been a lot more diplomatic but you have to accept he didn't do anything extremely stupid until 10.

I fear I must disagree about 3,4,5 and 6. As well as with your understanding of what would be reasonable for 7.

[Stannis the Great]

I'm not sure it would have made much of a difference whether or not he received Ned's letter and/or pledged for the Stormlands' support. Besides, as you say, with Robert alive he has little reason to act.

It would have made a difference if he could secure support as soon as possible. If he had the Storm Lords behind him then he might have shown that he was a credible candidate from the start.

Failing to recognize the need to negotiate with Renly was quite stupid. As was giving any attention at all to Melisandre, the butcher in scarlet.

This was stupider yet. While it made his supporters grow in number, it completely undermined his moral legitimacy. Many of his newfound supporters are with him only due to a lack of choice and are therefore unreliable. And it cost him the undying enmity of the Tyrells, which may well have been the decisive factor of the War.

It works both ways. Renly was just as stupid not to negotiate with Stannis. To become King he needed to get rid of Renly. He couldn't just temporarily team up with him to take on the Lannisters. What sort of fantasy world do you live in if two hostile parties can put their conflict aside to unite? Had Stannis been willing to compromise then he would have been a terrible situation had the Lannisters been beaten. Renly would have most of the power and support and could just destroy Stannis at ease.

Stannis did nothing wrong when he absorbed Renly's troops. How stupid do you have to be as a commander to refuse additional troop numbers especially when your army is one of the smallest in the whole damn war? The Tyrells and the majority of their bannermen would have allied with the Lannisters regardless because they blamed Stannis for Renly's death.

Renly gave no alternative to Stannis so he had to kill him - although Mel spares him the choice (not sure if this is canon). Just as Stannis gave Renly no choice but to decide to do battle against him.

They would never submit to Stannis, but they would easily negotiate a non-violence deal with him. Stannis commited yet another grave mistake, blinded by his stubborn, immature pride.

Seriously? He could have tried but they didn't even give him a chance. They were loyal to Renly, Loras was love in with him, and they sought to avenge his death. Plus the Lannisters appeared to be in the strongest position and Mace Tyrell wanted a Queen for a daughter.

And it was his fault, since it was him who pushed the Tyrells into supporting the Lannisters.

He had to kill Renly. There was no way he could get Tyrell support if Renly died.

I must have misunderstood. Surely you aren't saying that Stannis should have killed Davos because he defended Edric's life?

Well the uncompromising, stubborn, idiotic Stannis that you described should and would have. But wait he didn't kill Davos? Surely that's evidence against your argument.

I fear I must disagree about 3,4,5 and 6. As well as with your understanding of what would be reasonable for 7.