Jeyne Westerling

[sandoz12]

Yeah, but it still doesn't take into account the fact that that would mean that Jeyne basically turn into Arya's personality.

Also, if Jeyne was suspicious of Mommy Dearest before Robb left, shouldn't she perhaps have told Catelyn or Robb that there was something up with Sybel's special fertility potion. Preventing the queen from having a child is a crime in itself, even if Jeyne hadn't discovered the reason behind it. Both Robb and Cat were both very concerned about the lack of heir situation, so I don't think that Jeyne's accusation would be brushed off.

Yeah I don't think Jeyne would have been suspicious of her mother until after the Red Wedding after which it was too late to make a difference unless the Moon tea works as an early stage abortifacient rather than as a contraceptive. I think it is highly unlikely that this happened just saying it would be a twist I would really enjoy if it did happen.

[sandoz12]

I also can't help but feel that Jeyne has more of a role to play in the series. I hope (and don't think we have) seen the last of her. For some reason I really liked her from what I saw - I guess because she genuinely loved and cared for Robb whereas throughout the series we have seen weddings/relationships done for political/ulterior motives.

[kg1982]

I think that Jaime and friends run right into Lady Stoneheart and the Brotherhood Without Banners,

[Ser Pistus]

I think that Jaime and friends run right into Lady Stoneheart and the Brotherhood Without Banners,

This is exactly what I hope, too. I think that the only hope for Brienne (and Pod, the crowd's favorite) to survive is that someone saves them. Why not Jaime?

And in this case Brienne's word is "Kingslayer", of course.

[RDKfromwesteros]

Maybe she stop drinking it, because of some teenage rebelion XD

[kg1982]

Jeyne thought it was fertility potion. (Probably because she had no idea what Moon Tea was.) And she was pretty adamant about pleasing Robb and Cat, so she probably drank it thinking she was being a dutiful daughter and wife. It wasn't until after her husband died that there was a spark of rebellion.

[Envie]

The descriptions are not completley different. They fit pretty well (both mention chestnut curls, for example), the only difference being the hips.

3. Where did they find another girl in a besieged castle, who does not only look like Jeyne, but is of the same age and can behave like a highborn girl? We don't meet Jeyne's younger sister in the Jaime chapter, but she is only 12 according to the AFFC appendix, and Jaime thinks that the Jeyne he sees is 15-16. That's a 3-4 year difference, easy to spot.

Forgive me if this was pointed out in further arguments after this post I quoted, but I thought it should be mentioned that Jeyne's younger sister, very close in age and looks, named Elenya Westerling could definitely fit the bill. If indeed there was a switch, then Elenya would be a good candidate - and yes she was there with her Mother and sister at Riverrun. This could very well explain why Jaime mentions her youth, meek personality and slender hips... not what he was expecting of a child who fell in bed with the king of the North perhaps - because she's a child who didn't. Since he's never seen either of the Westerling daughters, this would be a very easy ruse to pull off.

Also, you must remember that Jaime's only ever been with one woman his entire life - his sister - who is a fully mature woman who has born children... so his perception of age, figure and looks would be a much much different POV from someone else. Also entirely possible he can't judge her age as probably all young maidens look about the same to him (too immature). A 12 or 13 year old would not look much different than a 14-15 year old to Jaime I imagine. But that's just a guess of his character and preference for his sister. ;)

It's also quoted in the book that Sybell Westerling flees Riverrun heading west, with her daughter. It does not say daughter(S) plural.

I'm not really convinced there was a double betrayal going on with Sybell and the Lannisters, but if she was duped into believing Robb would be assassinated and didn't know anything about the Red Wedding plans, she could very well switch sides immediately. I know I wouldn't further trust the Lannisters after that (not that she should have in the beginning anyways).

[SerFelixCulpa]

Yeah, but it still doesn't take into account the fact that that would mean that Jeyne basically turn into Arya's personality.

How so? Anytime someone does something against their mother's advice or disobeys a mother's wishes in any way, they have ergo taken on Ayra's personality entirely? Then Robb turned into Arya several times too. There are plenty of ways to justify Jeyne's possible actions besides positing that she turned into a proto-feminist tomboy uninterested in the role set out for her by society. In fact, throwing your lot in with your husband's family and desperately trying to conceive (even to the point of mistrusting your mother's 'fertility' tea) strikes me as about as diametrically opposed to Arya's mindset as would be possible.

[kg1982]

Jeyne was actually rebelling against Mommy Dearest. Sybel was slapping her around in the last Jaime chapter because of it and she had ripped clothing as if she was in mourning for Robb. I'd suspect that she'd refuse any marriage that Mommy contracted for her. Those acts of rebellion make sense. Suddenly, swimming out under the Riverrun with Blackfish and displaying an Arya like action girl side makes no sense.

As for refusing Mommy's "fertility tea," I'd think that Jeyne would mention something to her husband about it if she suspected anything. Jeyne didn't become feisty and defiant until after the Red Wedding, so she's not carrying Robb's child. Her personality suggests that she isn't going to swim under the gates and upstream with Blackfish. She's Sansa, not Arya. However, new defiant and feisty Jeyne might be doing other things, like sending secret messages to the Brotherhood without Banners about Jaime or something.

[Howl and Read]

Not buying the Sansa or Arya comparisons. Jeyne hopped into bed with Robb before they were married, a very un-Sansa thing to do. However she is also very un-Arya in her whole disposition.

Running away from home/family is not something restricted to upity sword weilding tom boys.

[Lord Damian]

It sounds like when she saw Robb in bed wounded, he received news of his young brothers, virtually on the heals of losing his father, no word of his sisters, he prob broke down, she took pity and then hormones, both are of the age where it is natural and thinks took their course. It was true love. she like most young ladies would do anything, they were married, she now a queen. My bet is that she is atleast on the run, the girl Jaime thinks is her is the younger sister and for her to have any signifigence is that she is pregnant. If not, she is nothing. the references to her hips by cat is the giveaway.

[kg1982]

Not buying the Sansa or Arya comparisons. Jeyne hopped into bed with Robb before they were married, a very un-Sansa thing to do. However she is also very un-Arya in her whole disposition.

I get the feeling that Sybel "encouraged" Jeyne to jump into Robb's bed for the good of her father and the family. I think that Jeyne had a crush on Robb, but she doesn't seem like she'd ruin her reputation without subtle nudging by Mommy Dearest.

Running away from home/family is not something restricted to upity sword weilding tom boys.

Swimming three feet under water and downstream out of a besieged castle in the middle of the night is the wheelhouse of uppity tom boys. I don't see how Jeyne, who struck me as frightened of her own shadow in SoS, suddenly is up for a midnight swim with Blackfish out of Riverrun.

[SerFelixCulpa]

Swimming three feet under water and downstream out of a besieged castle in the middle of the night is the wheelhouse of uppity tom boys.

Um...what?

I don't see how Jeyne, who struck me as frightened of her own shadow in SoS, suddenly is up for a midnight swim with Blackfish out of Riverrun.

Why did she strike you as "frightened of her own shadow in SoS"? What actual text do you base that on? Because while she never struck me as being as bold as, say, Ser Barristan, I never got the impression she was particularly cowed.

[kg1982]

Cat's descriptions of her in SoS suggest that she's pretty intimidated by everything. I don't think that Jeyne Westerling is going to be running around the countryside with Blackfish; it's just out of character. Jeyne finally stands up to her mother in AFOC (Jaime chapter), but that was after her husband was brutally murdered.

[Howl and Read]

I get the feeling that Sybel "encouraged" Jeyne to jump into Robb's bed for the good of her father and the family. I think that Jeyne had a crush on Robb, but she doesn't seem like she'd ruin her reputation without subtle nudging by Mommy Dearest.

Swimming three feet under water and downstream out of a besieged castle in the middle of the night is the wheelhouse of uppity tom boys. I don't see how Jeyne, who struck me as frightened of her own shadow in SoS, suddenly is up for a midnight swim with Blackfish out of Riverrun.

I agree in the sense that I don't think Jeyne, pregnant or not, left with the Blackfish. She could have run away at any point between hearing of Robb's death and the siege at Riverrun,theoretically speaking.

I don't speculate too much on whether she is pregnant or not, but am pretty confident it's not Jeyne Westerling as the willowly thin hipped girl at the end of AFFC. Her reasons for fleeing are not exactly oblique, the obliqueness comes in trying to guess Sybell Spicer's reasons for lying:

*Maggy the Frog-like visions. (Which could equally apply to Jeyne and whose behaviour could have been influenced by prophetic dreams as well)

*Playing one side against the other/ Hedging her bets / leveraging her power.

*Saving face (If Jeyne has fleed of her own accord)

...Or any number of other nuances.

I think given what we know about Martin as a writer, the Jeyne Poole/False Arya situation is a clue. Just as I beleive the Dalla's baby switch is a clue to Jon's backstory, (switching possible omen babies whose Kingly Fathers have been slain in battle...Wylla and Dalla...{ok maybe that's reaching.})

There is evidence that the thin hipped girl is not Jeyne Westerling in the sense of a textual discrepancy. Arguements against this evidence indicate that Martin simply made a mistake (Weak argument IMO. Fix it in the reprints) or that its a indication of different character POVs (which is better, but I still question to what end, and why even have a scene with "Jeyne" focus on hips unless you are drawing our attention to it.)

Personally while I believe that it is not Jeyne, I can't confidently favour one theory over another as to the why. There isn't enough evidence at this stage.

[Wolf at the Wall]

Also, if Jeyne was suspicious of Mommy Dearest before Robb left, shouldn't she perhaps have told Catelyn or Robb that there was something up with Sybel's special fertility potion.

Hi, new to the boards.

Now maybe it's just me, but a daughter MAY have a suspicion about her mother. Possibly about a fertility drink. Something with a pretty hefty penalty when it's being given to a queen.

Do you, as the daughter: A) Ditch the drink and keep your mouth shut while you sort it out, or

B) Go tell your husband (and new mother in law), a man who, while caring toward you, still comes from the cold and wintery north with its harsh justices, and has led military commands wherein he has given up men in a feint to achieve his goals when you're not really sure, but just kinda have a thought.

I really hadn't noticed the hips thing, but it being brought to my attention, while at first I dismissed it as a mistake, is slowly taking credence in my mind, and I don't see Mom as being too hard to sway. The woman is an obvious opportunist and may be looking for a far more reaching plan or even just hedging her bet.

Say she actually gets Jeyne out, somehow gets her back home, she has the kid, give it to a wet nurse and life goes on, but you're sitting on an investment.

Personally I don't think she has Jeyne if shes been switched. I think she'll have gone elsewhere, away from her mother and her mother is covering, be it because Jeyne got daring and trusted the Blackfish or because mom decided it was a good idea to play the board. It does not take a feat of Arya-brand bravery to take a late swim under the guidance of the freakin Blackfish, Lord of Awesomesauce, or get switched out at any earlier point.

Edit: Can't comment too much on her being pregnant still, but I don't think it detracts from the other Starks if she is. In fact, to me it cushions House Stark and the other kids even more. After all that they've suffered, the Starks that are lost, a new one may be coming.

So long as that kid's a wolf cub and not a Westerling. Let him have the fire in him to be a real Stark, if he/she/Other exists at all.

[kg1982]

Do you, as the daughter: A) Ditch the drink and keep your mouth shut while you sort it out, or

B) Go tell your husband (and new mother in law), a man who, while caring toward you, still comes from the cold and wintery north with its harsh justices, and has led military commands wherein he has given up men in a feint to achieve his goals when you're not really sure, but just kinda have a thought.

Well then we should congratulate Ms. Westerling for her unknowning complicity in her husband's murder. The moon tea probably would have given at least Cat a hint that something was really wrong and possibly prevented Robb and company from going to the Twins.

I really hadn't noticed the hips thing, but it being brought to my attention, while at first I dismissed it as a mistake, is slowly taking credence in my mind, and I don't see Mom as being too hard to sway. The woman is an obvious opportunist and may be looking for a far more reaching plan or even just hedging her bet.

Say she actually gets Jeyne out, somehow gets her back home, she has the kid, give it to a wet nurse and life goes on, but you're sitting on an investment.

She's basically sitting on treason. Mama Westerling might have wanted to hedge her bets while Robb was still alive - having your daughter sleep with the dashing king while plotting with Tywin, but she'd have no reason to know. The Lannisters have won. Eddard, Cat, and all the children are dead for all most of Westros knows. The only one who may be alive is Sansa, who is charged with murder and treason.

It does not take a feat of Arya-brand bravery to take a late swim under the guidance of the freakin Blackfish, Lord of Awesomesauce, or get switched out at any earlier point.

Does Jeyne actually strike you as someone who knows how to swim? She doesn't strike me as knowing how to swim or having the physical courage or training necessary to pull off the escape. However, that doesn't mean that Jeyne might be doing some clandestine things. I'm sure that Blackfish and the Brotherhood would like someone telling them where the Freys and Lannisters are. That is something a newly courageous and feisty Jeyne (AFFC rather than SOS) might do.

I think that Cat's comments about Jeyne and her hips were supposed to provide clues that something might be up with the Westerlings, especially with Jeyne's description of moon tea just after Cat hears about Lysa's forced abortion. I like Robb as a character, but having another claim on the North really does take away from the younger Stark children's journeys. Also, Jeyne is an incredibly one note, boring character. I'm all for Ms. Plot Device just leaving us alone.

[Wolf at the Wall]

Well then we should congratulate Ms. Westerling for her unknowning complicity in her husband's murder. The moon tea probably would have given at least Cat a hint that something was really wrong and possibly prevented Robb and company from going to the Twins.

I never said I thought she did the right thing, but just because her mother may be doing something fishy with a drink might not make a daughter think 'Hey, maybe she's betrayed me and my new husband.' Would Jeyne really have any reason to believe her mother was planning something so far reaching, to have the stones to contact Tywin from, as far as Jeyne might have thought, within the walls of Riverrun? How much can she possibly suspect her own mother of? I don't think she had a full grasp on how close to home the Game could be being played.

She's basically sitting on treason. Mama Westerling might have wanted to hedge her bets while Robb was still alive - having your daughter sleep with the dashing king while plotting with Tywin, but she'd have no reason to know. The Lannisters have won. Eddard, Cat, and all the children are dead for all most of Westros knows. The only one who may be alive is Sansa, who is charged with murder and treason.

That's what a gambit IS, to make the most daring move in the chance it will pay off. If it's only known to those in the household she truly can trust, if it's really known to anyone at all. (Do I really need to go into details on how easy that would be, for Jeyne to go somewhere she's not known and return at a different time from the kid who's given to a wet nurse, if she returns at all?) And the other Stark children being dead is actually MORE of a reason to make the gambit. If the North strengthens in the future, you have the one true heir to the Stark line, and there's no guarantee that the Lannisters will KEEP the power they're grabbing for a significant time period. The thing about having a Stark child around is, it's not an investment you're banking on for the immediate future, it's a long term plan. A very long term plan. Probably something we wouldn't even see come to full fruition in the books unless they end a long time in the future.

Does Jeyne actually strike you as someone who knows how to swim? She doesn't strike me as knowing how to swim or having the physical courage or training necessary to pull off the escape. However, that doesn't mean that Jeyne might be doing some clandestine things. I'm sure that Blackfish and the Brotherhood would like someone telling them where the Freys and Lannisters are. That is something a newly courageous and feisty Jeyne (AFFC rather than SOS) might do.

She seems timid, she doesn't seem unable to do motor functions? The thing about being brave is the only time a person can be brave is when they're afraid. And I think Jeyne could be very afraid, for her child if not courageous enough for herself. Dany was brave for Drogo. Jeyne could be brave for her wolf cub. I'm just saying, I don't think it's so far a stretch.

I think that Cat's comments about Jeyne and her hips were supposed to provide clues that something might be up with the Westerlings, especially with Jeyne's description of moon tea just after Cat hears about Lysa's forced abortion. I like Robb as a character, but having another claim on the North really does take away from the younger Stark children's journeys. Also, Jeyne is an incredibly one note, boring character. I'm all for Ms. Plot Device just leaving us alone.

Eh, we can agree to disagree about whether it would take away from the kids, I'm cool with that. It's opinion anyway until we'd actually see how it pans out and how it played out with the other kids, and I'm sure we will, one way or the other. I'm not even sure I completely believe Jeyne may have smuggled out still, though I think the main reason for that would be if she is with child, but I find it an intriguing possibility.

[Silverin]

Does Jeyne actually strike you as someone who knows how to swim? She doesn't strike me as knowing how to swim or having the physical courage or training necessary to pull off the escape. However, that doesn't mean that Jeyne might be doing some clandestine things. I'm sure that Blackfish and the Brotherhood would like someone telling them where the Freys and Lannisters are. That is something a newly courageous and feisty Jeyne (AFFC rather than SOS) might do.

I think that Cat's comments about Jeyne and her hips were supposed to provide clues that something might be up with the Westerlings, especially with Jeyne's description of moon tea just after Cat hears about Lysa's forced abortion. I like Robb as a character, but having another claim on the North really does take away from the younger Stark children's journeys. Also, Jeyne is an incredibly one note, boring character. I'm all for Ms. Plot Device just leaving us alone.

Jeyne is from the Crabs, costal, next to the sea. I think it is quite likely. But even if Jeyne was switched I think she didnt leave Riverrun at that time with Brynden. There are a lot of different ways she could get out. Firstly remember that Thoros told Cat about the fact that the Lannisters will siege Riverrun. Now maybe some of her man contacted people in there.

1. She left Riverrun before the siege.

2. She left Riverrun after the siege started befor Brynden (i think this is the least possible)

3. She left with Brynden

4. She is still in Riverrun. Why not? The Lannisters are leaving and we know that at least someone from the BwB is there. There are a lot of people in there she could be the 'young wife' of someone in the castle or she could be hiding somewhere, I am sure they could have found a few people who would be loyal enough. Did the Lannister inspected every corner in Riverrun to look for Brynden?

[Sand Viper]

I think GRRM mentioned the hips to suggest that the potion given by her mother to stop her conceiving caused her hips to diminish. I don't think it's supposed to be a suggestion that the real Jeyne is still out there somewhere with Robb's child in her belly.

A son of Robb would not add much to the story - the ASOIAF story is going to end while such a child would still be too small to be a proper character. It would needlessly complicate the Winterfell succession plotline.

The only way GRRM could make a pregnant Jeyne plotline meaningful would be if Littlefinger or Roose Bolton found out about the switch and tried to hunt her down. Ultimately though the plot line would have to end with the miscarriage or death of the baby, so we can get back to focussing on the more important Winterfell characters.