Why did Shae betray Tyrion?

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

I thought Tyrion was the good guy here. It's very clear Shae was bought out by the Lannisters, including Cersei. You can't even call it betrayal, bc Shae was under no obligation to Tyrion. Even if you could, The answer is right there. All Shae wants is money and power. By sticking with the Lannisters, specifically Tywin, she is practically guaranteed a lifetime of security and wealth. I don't think Shae thought about the long term consequences, such as the fact that she wouldn't stay young forever, but it's clear money and security were her primary reasons for her betrayal.

Haters going to hate?

Swan wrote a nice long post detailing how all of the "good" females are submissive and the only woman who hates inequality is stupid and evil Cersei. Swan even goes so far as to accuse GRRM doing this on purpose. It was interesting, if not something I agreed with totally.

I think it is reasonable to assume (s)he is someone who believes in equality and fairness between the sexes.

Now look above. You will see the same person holds it against Tyrion for being willing to dump is prostitute if his wife began having sex with him. That is entirely in context. Swan includes it with slapping Shae, "taking" Shae's stuff away, not wanting to listen to her, and reminding Shae of her lower place. So, clearly it was meant to be another example of Tyrion's bad.

All of that bad stuff, well except the not wanting to listen to her. She was a whore and a pretend girlfriend. If Tyrion didn't want to listen to her, so what? He's not paying her to talk unless he wants her to. Oh. But it is only a business relationship when it is Shae. Tyrion must look at her as the love of his life, or he an irredeemable monster. So, their logic runs like this:

Shae embarrasses Tyrion with with his sexual quirks related to his deformity and gets him laughed by the most powerful people in the land during his capital trial? YOU GO GIRL!

Tyrion figures he'll stop seeing whores when his wife starts sleeping with him? WHAT A FUCKING ASSHOLE!

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

What's there to like about Shae. She got what was coming for her.

It's more Tyrion hate than Shae love.

[Alexia]

Now look above. You will see the same person holds it against Tyrion for being willing to dump is prostitute if his wife began having sex with him. That is entirely in context. Swan includes it with slapping Shae, "taking" Shae's stuff away, not wanting to listen to her, and reminding Shae of her lower place. So, clearly it was meant to be another example of Tyrion's bad.

Maybe I misunderstood what Swan was trying to say, but I actually thought she was using it less as an example of why Tyrion is bad and more as an example of the fact that, 1) Tyrion doesn't truly love Shae in any meaningful sense of the word; and, 2) Shae's situation with Tyrion is extremely precarious and she cannot rely on him for her future.

It wouldn't make Tyrion an asshole to stop sleeping with prostitutes if he and his wife began a meaningful conjugal relationship, au contraire, but I think its fair to mention this as an example of the above and I think that Shae would have been wise to take that into consideration while planning for her own future.

And has anyone on this thread actually praised Shae for humiliating Tyrion at his trial? Its been an interesting discussion but less so if we start arguing strawmen. :uhoh:

[malarky1231]

I just find it ludicrous that Tyrion is not universally liked here. Everything he does appears to be well-thought out and clever. Maybe a little cruel and harsh, but in the world of ASOIAF, such steps are necessary. Tyrion was going for self-preservation as much as Shae was; honestly I can't find fault in either of them.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

Maybe I misunderstood what Swan was trying to say, but I actually thought she was using it less as an example of why Tyrion is bad and more as an example of the fact that, 1) Tyrion doesn't truly love Shae in any meaningful sense of the word; and, 2) Shae's situation with Tyrion is extremely precarious and she cannot rely on him for her future.

It wouldn't make Tyrion an asshole to stop sleeping with prostitutes if he and his wife began a meaningful conjugal relationship, au contraire, but I think its fair to mention this as an example of the above and I think that Shae would have been wise to take that into consideration while planning for her own future.

And has anyone on this thread actually praised Shae for humiliating Tyrion at his trial? Its been an interesting discussion but less so if we start arguing strawmen. :uhoh:

Swan's full paragraph:

Honestly, though (as its frequently pointed out) Tyrion's treatment of Shae was not all that horrible by Westeros standards, it was by no means great, either. He never wanted to listen to her, constantly reminded her of her lower place, broke more or less every promise he made to her, slapped her when she was mildly rude to him, and was totally wiling to get rid of her at the first chance that Sansa became responsive to his overatures.

Notice the first sentence. It is not talking about Tyrion's feelings.It is talking about Tyrion's treatment of her.

And I called out the last one because it is perfectly reasonable response.

Of course, if you're right about Swan's post, then it is a strawman argument itself since few if anyone has said that Tyrion truly loved Shae. He didn't. Most of us defending him will say he cared about her, but ultimately he knew she was just a whore and he was just a client no matter how much he tried to fool himself. He was constantly reminding himself of that. I have also been calling out the hypocrisy of allowing Shae's actions to be be dismissed as business but not Tyrion's. So, if you interpretation of Swan's post is right, (s)he is the one bringing up straw men arguments.

As for my last part of the post, I was exaggerating. I've kinda been mocking the other side for a few days now. It helps when they write sentences like, "was totally wiling to get rid of her at the first chance that Sansa became responsive to his overatures" to show what a bad guy he is or to argue against something I have NEVER argued for.

But exaggerations only work when they have a grain truth. Mostly, I was mocking the fact that while the Tyrion supporters admit Tyrion was wrong in killing Shae and other things, the "fuck the evil little dwarf" faction has pretty much dismissed the idea of such deep, personal humiliation as something wrong done by Shae. Also, we get this:

Really making sure she cut deep with her testimony at the trial seems like fair turn around given that Tyrion took away what she earned by putting up with him and turned her into a maid whose pretty little neck could be fitted for a noose if she didn't play a new role instead.

This is approving of Shae's humiliation of Tyrion.

I just find it ludicrous that Tyrion is not universally liked here. Everything he does appears to be well-thought out and clever. Maybe a little cruel and harsh, but in the world of ASOIAF, such steps are necessary. Tyrion was going for self-preservation as much as Shae was; honestly I can't find fault in either of them.

Well, there are legitimate reasons to dislike anyone. No one can be universally liked.

[Alexia]

This is approving of Shae's humiliation of Tyrion.

Okay, fair enough. I retract that. :)

From a literary perspective, I find it a bit confusing. On one hand, it seems like Shae was taking advantage of the opportunity to show some spite...and from a purely literary perspective, I kinda liked it. While it is by no means a laudable thing for her to do, I could sort of understand why and it lent some additional humanity and emotion to her character (resentment of Tyrion, bitterness at the situation she was now in, et al) and it was very interesting to see how it affected Tyrion, because he really did manage to fool himself to some extent about their employer-employee relationship. (An interesting moment is when she tells him something along the lines of "my lord will always be beautiful to me, and then Tyrion wonders if maybe she doesn't even see ugly, and I just sat back in some astonishment to wonder why he would believe that.) On the other hand, I really have nearly convinced myself that GRRM intended that her character didn't expect the reaction of laughter that she got from her testimony, mostly because of the reaction she gave...seeming to think that they were laughing at her. Which is odd, and a bit socially awkward. There is also the random possibility that she was instructed to incorporate that into her testimony; I am sure Varys knew the nickname.

Nonetheless, it was a shitty and mean thing to do. Interesting from a literary perspective, and understandable at a certain "human" perspective, but not at all nice and in no way laudable.

But I agree that Tyrion would not be a bad person for not loving Shae or for choosing his wife over her. I honestly never understood what he saw in her; Varys says some very apt things on the subject.

[Myrish swan]

Swan wrote a nice long post detailing how all of the "good" females are submissive and the only woman who hates inequality is stupid and evil Cersei. Swan even goes so far as to accuse GRRM doing this on purpose. It was interesting, if not something I agreed with totally.

I think it is reasonable to assume (s)he is someone who believes in equality and fairness between the sexes.

Now look above. You will see the same person holds it against Tyrion for being willing to dump is prostitute if his wife began having sex with him. That is entirely in context. Swan includes it with slapping Shae, "taking" Shae's stuff away, not wanting to listen to her, and reminding Shae of her lower place. So, clearly it was meant to be another example of Tyrion's bad.

I never said "Tyrion's bad." I was merely pointing out that he did not give Shae compelling reasons to stay loyal to him.

Honestly, why is saying that Tyrion's treatment of Shae was less than sterling saying that Tyrion is a bad person?

Arguing that Shae was a "sex slave" (as someone did earlier on this thread, but which I have never, at any point done) is bloody ridiculous. It's equally ridiculous to argue that Tyrion was a "loving and truly sincere benefactor." Shae was Tyrion's employee. She gave a service in exchange for money. Though social norms change, human nature stays the same. With the different social norms of Westeros, the way Tyrion treated Shae was not ALL THAT bad. (But still, was by no means great.) However, nothing in human nature would suggest that Tyrion's treatment of Shae would inspire any affection or loyalty on her part. She wasn't abused, but she wasn't treated all THAT well.

Honestly, that's what i've been arguing. And the fact that humiliation in no way mitigates the crime of homocide.

Most of all, the thought behind all of my posts has been the fact that GRRM does everything he can to demonize Shae and ensure full reader sympathy is with Tyrion. I mean, he dwells on TYRION's tears when Shae is being brutally strangled. I mean, WTF???? I think someone needs to point out the fact that Tyrion had some pretty hefty financial and social advantages over Shae, which he took full advantage of in the end there.

Honestly, I'm not sure why you assume that I'm a. totally disagreeing with you or b. "hating on" Tyrion. People are going to have different interpretations of this character. That's the nature of literature.

I think it is reasonable to assume (s)he is someone who believes in equality and fairness between the sexes.

Now look above. You will see the same person holds it against Tyrion for being willing to dump is prostitute if his wife began having sex with him. That is entirely in context. Swan includes it with slapping Shae, "taking" Shae's stuff away, not wanting to listen to her, and reminding Shae of her lower place. So, clearly it was meant to be another example of Tyrion's bad.

I'm not sure what the latter instance has to do with "gender equality?" I'm not being sarcastic or trying to denigrate your argument, I'm honestly just unclear on this one. Are you saying that as a woman, I should be backing up Sansa, the wife?

At any rate, I was not saying that planning to send his mistress away once his wife started putting out for him makes Tyrion a bad guy or at all unusual. What I'm saying is that this simply highlights the instability and insecurity of Shae's "position" with him. Even more to the point, it casts into question the "love" so many have claimed Tyrion felt for her. (He himself thinks on numerous occaisions that he "loves" her, and by every appearance, GRRM intends for us to take this seriously.) The fact that Tyrion is willing to send Shae off the second he gets another gorgeous girl to have sex with him casts some question on the depth of his feelings.

Also, there is the significant difference in his thoughts/ feelings about Shae and Sansa. With Sansa, he thinks about how he wishes he could talk to her, hear her problems, discuss their days together, etc. However, with Shae he actively refuses to talk. He tells her the best way she can help him is by having sex with him. Now, there's nothing wrong with that-- he is paying her, after all. And it's not necessarily bad to rather sleep with someone than talk with them. But the contrast in his attitude towards Sansa and Shae is interesting.

[Dolorous J]

Tyrion should have known better than to trust a whore...

Her death was almost as satisfying as Tywins...

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

I never said "Tyrion's bad." I was merely pointing out that he did not give Shae compelling reasons to stay loyal to him.

(1)Honestly, why is saying that Tyrion's treatment of Shae was less than sterling saying that Tyrion is a bad person?

Arguing that Shae was a "sex slave" (as someone did earlier on this thread, but which I have never, at any point done) is bloody ridiculous. It's equally ridiculous to argue that Tyrion was a "loving and truly sincere benefactor." Shae was Tyrion's employee. She gave a service in exchange for money. Though social norms change, human nature stays the same. With the different social norms of Westeros, the way Tyrion treated Shae was not ALL THAT bad. (But still, was by no means great.) However, nothing in human nature would suggest that Tyrion's treatment of Shae would inspire any affection or loyalty on her part. She wasn't abused, but she wasn't treated all THAT well.

Honestly, that's what i've been arguing. And the fact that humiliation in no way mitigates the crime of homocide.

(2)Most of all, the thought behind all of my posts has been the fact that GRRM does everything he can to demonize Shae and ensure full reader sympathy is with Tyrion. I mean, he dwells on TYRION's tears when Shae is being brutally strangled. I mean, WTF???? I think someone needs to point out the fact that Tyrion had some pretty hefty financial and social advantages over Shae, which he took full advantage of in the end there.

(3)Honestly, I'm not sure why you assume that I'm a. totally disagreeing with you or b. "hating on" Tyrion. People are going to have different interpretations of this character. That's the nature of literature.

(4)I'm not sure what the latter instance has to do with "gender equality?" I'm not being sarcastic or trying to denigrate your argument, I'm honestly just unclear on this one. Are you saying that as a woman, I should be backing up Sansa, the wife?

At any rate, I was not saying that planning to send his mistress away once his wife started putting out for him makes Tyrion a bad guy or at all unusual. (5)What I'm saying is that this simply highlights the instability and insecurity of Shae's "position" with him. Even more to the point, (6)it casts into question the "love" so many have claimed Tyrion felt for her. (He himself thinks on numerous occaisions that he "loves" her, and by every appearance, GRRM intends for us to take this seriously.) The fact that Tyrion is willing to send Shae off the second he gets another gorgeous girl to have sex with him casts some question on the depth of his feelings.

Also, there is the significant difference in his thoughts/ feelings about Shae and Sansa. (7)With Sansa, he thinks about how he wishes he could talk to her, hear her problems, discuss their days together, etc. However, with Shae he actively refuses to talk. He tells her the best way she can help him is by having sex with him. Now, there's nothing wrong with that-- he is paying her, after all. And it's not necessarily bad to rather sleep with someone than talk with them. But the contrast in his attitude towards Sansa and Shae is interesting.

1. So, we're more or less in agreement? Cool.

2. Tyrion is a main character while Shae is a very minor character. Of course, we're supposed to concern ourselves more with a main character than a minor character. Though I disagree with Shae having no sympathy.

3. Because I'm throwing you in with the other people who've been arguing with me and my side.

Unfairly? Yes, apparently. Sorry about that.

But it's hard to get everyone straight and I get people mixed up. Sorry.

4. Regardless of gender, I figure it's a good (and expected thing) to stop visiting the whores when married. Unless of course, you and your spouse have an open marriage. Tyrion gets a little leeway here since pretty much any sex he would have with Sasna would be arguably rape.

I still don't see how this fits with evidence of anything (other than the idea that Tyrion truly loved her which to me is so ridiculous I never even considered it).

5. True, but it didn't come across as that in your original post. You talked about how she could have found another rich - if not as rich as Tyrion - man and Tyrion's treatment of her. Not of her insecurity in her place.

But I understand. I can think of a couple times where I did not come across clearly myself in my posts.

6. Again not me. But if I thought you were in the "fuck the evil little dwarf" faction, I can hardly blame you for thinking I was in the "Tyrion is a super-wonderful and loved Shae with all of his heart until the evil bitch betrayed him" faction.

7. Well, Sansa is his wife. Shae is his whore. This proves that he did not truly love Shae (which as you pointed out isn't a bad thing) but was willing to try to be a good husband to Sansa (and probably hoping he could have a loving marriage with her).

Tyrion wanted to believe in the fantasy so bad, but he always knew she was just his whore.

[malarky1231]

1. So, we're more or less in agreement? Cool.

2. Tyrion is a main character while Shae is a very minor character. Of course, we're supposed to concern ourselves more with a main character than a minor character. Though I disagree with Shae having no sympathy.

3. Because I'm throwing you in with the other people who've been arguing with me and my side.

Unfairly? Yes, apparently. Sorry about that.

But it's hard to get everyone straight and I get people mixed up. Sorry.

4. Regardless of gender, I figure it's a good (and expected thing) to stop visiting the whores when married. Unless of course, you and your spouse have an open marriage. Tyrion gets a little leeway here since pretty much any sex he would have with Sasna would be arguably rape.

I still don't see how this fits with evidence of anything (other than the idea that Tyrion truly loved her which to me is so ridiculous I never even considered it).

5. True, but it didn't come across as that in your original post. You talked about how she could have found another rich - if not as rich as Tyrion - man and Tyrion's treatment of her. Not of her insecurity in her place.

But I understand. I can think of a couple times where I did not come across clearly myself in my posts.

6. Again not me. But if I thought you were in the "fuck the evil little dwarf" faction, I can hardly blame you for thinking I was in the "Tyrion is a super-wonderful and loved Shae with all of his heart until the evil bitch betrayed him" faction.

7. Well, Sansa is his wife. Shae is his whore. This proves that he did not truly love Shae (which as you pointed out isn't a bad thing) but was willing to try to be a good husband to Sansa (and probably hoping he could have a loving marriage with her).

Tyrion wanted to believe in the fantasy so bad, but he always knew she was just his whore.

I have doubts about this line in particular. Tyrion never once believed that he could make an honest women out of Shae. He always knew she was a whore, and plenty of lines from the text confirm that he believed all she wanted was his gold, not his love. He kept her only for what whores do best, which is pleasing men. However, he made a grave error in trusting her. He should have taken LF attitute and not trust anyone, not even his brother Jaime, who lied to his face about Tysha. The only fantasy he had was believing he and Sansa would make a happy couple, which in reality could never happen

[Myrish swan]

Nonetheless, it was a shitty and mean thing to do. Interesting from a literary perspective, and understandable at a certain "human" perspective, but not at all nice and in no way laudable.

So is murdering a defensless 18 year old girl in bed. Personally, I'd say that is worse than revealing some sexual secrets in a courtroom. Apparently not, though. For insulting Tyrion, Shae "got what she deserved."

And lets face it-- the humiliation, in the end, is what this is about. Tyrion was doomed anyway. Shae's testimony made no difference. But she embarassed him, and for that she had to die. Honestly, I don't think GRRM can forgive her for not loving Tyrion or remaining loyal to him. (Interestingly, he could do so for Bronn. And by the way, Bronn is a beloved character, who admits to being wiling to kill babies. Hilariously, GRRM portrays him as morally supperior to Shae, whose worse crime is humiliating Tyrion. Honestly, I'll bet the numerous people who have said "Shae had it coming," or "I laughed when he shot her," have no problem with Bronn.

These books are totally feminist, though. :leaving:

[Myrish swan]

1. So, we're more or less in agreement? Cool.

Tyrion wanted to believe in the fantasy so bad, but he always knew she was just his whore.

Yes, on the fact that Shae was not a “sex slave.” (!) Honestly, I don’t think there can be much of an argument about that. However, I do disagree with a few of your other points.

However, before I get to that, there are two issues with your posts here in general that I wanted to bring up:

First, Shae's embarrassment of Tyrion in the courtroom seems to be a huge issue for you. You are frequently bringing it up to argue that, despite his murder of Shae, Tyrion is basically a good guy. You seem to be saying that the “giant of Lanister” incident mitigates Tyrion’s murder of Shae… but the issue for me is, why? Are you saying that Shae’s comments were responsible for setting Tyrion off, and sending him into a mad rage? And that Tyrion is less culpable because he did what he did “in the heat of the moment?” If so, I’m okay with this. However, if you're saying that Shae's decision to humiliate Tyrion means she was somehow more deserving to die, than I say total B.S.

What she did was very cruel, but does not justify—or even mitigate-- homicide. Yet, disturbingly, this seems to be the sentiment of a number of people on this thread. Some are saying that it was technically wrong, but then basically say Shae was a bitch who got what was coming to her.

Secondly, you seem to get rather indignant whenever someone ventures to explore or explain some possible explanations for Shae's cruel words in the courtroom. When someone suggested that she might have said those things because she was scared of Cersei's reprisal, you said that this was basically "excusing Shae's humiliation of Tyrion," or something of that nature. It is as though you consider Shae's “giant of Lanister” comments to be so offensive that you feel no possible explanations for Shae's behavior should even be considered if it makes her any more sympathetic. Since her actions are pure evil, bringing up possible explanations for Shae’s behavior is tantamount to excusing it, and belittling Tyrion’s pain. However, you yourself have frequently brought up Shae's humiliation of Tyrion as an explanation (if not an excuse) for the former's murder. I'm guessing that, though you're not trying to say that what Tyrion did was okay, you think its only fair that we try to "see where he's coming from." My question is, why are you not willing to do the same for Shae? After all, every possible explanation for her behavior in the courtroom you write off as unfairly excusing her betrayal of Tyrion. However, since Tyrion had reasons and motivations to explain why he did, wouldn't it be the same for Shae?

Of course, I do realize that some actions are so evil that it doesn't really matter "why" they were done. However, Shae's humiliation of Tyrion, though cruel, does not strike me as belonging in this category. You clearly feel that Tyrion's killing Shae does not belong in this category, either. If you think about it, you are basically saying that revealing sexual secrets about someone in front of numerous people can never be justified or explained, but that murdering someone can be. Seems a bit unfair to me.

[Alexia]

So is murdering a defensless 18 year old girl in bed. Personally, I'd say that is worse than revealing some sexual secrets in a courtroom.

Of course it is, and I've been saying that for 18 pages worth of thread now! There's no way to construe any of my many posts in this thread to say that I think overwise.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

I have doubts about this line in particular. Tyrion never once believed that he could make an honest women out of Shae. He always knew she was a whore, and plenty of lines from the text confirm that he believed all she wanted was his gold, not his love. He kept her only for what whores do best, which is pleasing men. However, he made a grave error in trusting her. He should have taken LF attitute and not trust anyone, not even his brother Jaime, who lied to his face about Tysha. The only fantasy he had was believing he and Sansa would make a happy couple, which in reality could never happen

Oh. I agree he never believed it. But he wanted to. That's why he would remind himself it was the gold she was after, not him.

And lets face it-- the humiliation, in the end, is what this is about. Tyrion was doomed anyway. Shae's testimony made no difference. But she embarassed him, and for that she had to die. Honestly, I don't think GRRM can forgive her for not loving Tyrion or remaining loyal to him. (Interestingly, he could do so for Bronn. And by the way, Bronn is a beloved character, who admits to being wiling to kill babies. Hilariously, GRRM portrays him as morally supperior to Shae, whose worse crime is humiliating Tyrion. Honestly, I'll bet the numerous people who have said "Shae had it coming," or "I laughed when he shot her," have no problem with Bronn.

I never thought Bronn was portrayed as morally superior. He has always been portrayed as what he is, an amoral sellsword who looks out for himself.

Now, Bronn's particular brand of amorality leave him morally superior to Joffery and Gregor, but that's only because he does not seem to actively seek to do evil. Then again, it could be argued to be worse since Joffery and Gregor (especially Joffery) doesn't see what they do as evil. Bronn does and simply does not care.

I don't think Bronn has ever been shown to be more moral than Shae. He just simply never lashed out at a main character other than Cersei. Shae screed over Tyrion. Fan reaction is different. I don't think it is anything to do with GRRM's opinions on the matter though.

(1)Yes, on the fact that Shae was not a “sex slave.” (!) Honestly, I don’t think there can be much of an argument about that. However, I do disagree with a few of your other points.

However, before I get to that, there are two issues with your posts here in general that I wanted to bring up:

(2)First, Shae's embarrassment of Tyrion in the courtroom seems to be a huge issue for you. You are frequently bringing it up to argue that, despite his murder of Shae, Tyrion is basically a good guy. You seem to be saying that the “giant of Lanister” incident mitigates Tyrion’s murder of Shae… but the issue for me is, why? (3)Are you saying that Shae’s comments were responsible for setting Tyrion off, and sending him into a mad rage? And that Tyrion is less culpable because he did what he did “in the heat of the moment?” If so, I’m okay with this. However, if you're saying that Shae's decision to humiliate Tyrion means she was somehow more deserving to die, than I say total B.S.

(4)What she did was very cruel, but does not justify—or even mitigate-- homicide. Yet, disturbingly, this seems to be the sentiment of a number of people on this thread. Some are saying that it was technically wrong, but then basically say Shae was a bitch who got what was coming to her.

(5)Secondly, you seem to get rather indignant whenever someone ventures to explore or explain some possible explanations for Shae's cruel words in the courtroom. When someone suggested that she might have said those things because (6)she was scared of Cersei's reprisal, you said that this was basically "excusing Shae's humiliation of Tyrion," or something of that nature. It is as though you consider Shae's “giant of Lanister” comments to be so offensive that you feel no possible explanations for Shae's behavior should even be considered if it makes her any more sympathetic. (7)Since her actions are pure evil, bringing up possible explanations for Shae’s behavior is tantamount to excusing it, and belittling Tyrion’s pain. However, you yourself have frequently brought up Shae's humiliation of Tyrion as an explanation (if not an excuse) for the former's murder. I'm guessing that, though you're not trying to say that what Tyrion did was okay, you think its only fair that we try to "see where he's coming from." (8)My question is, why are you not willing to do the same for Shae? After all, every possible explanation for her behavior in the courtroom you write off as unfairly excusing her betrayal of Tyrion. However, since Tyrion had reasons and motivations to explain why he did, wouldn't it be the same for Shae?

Of course, I do realize that some actions are so evil that it doesn't really matter "why" they were done. However, Shae's humiliation of Tyrion, though cruel, does not strike me as belonging in this category. You clearly feel that Tyrion's killing Shae does not belong in this category, either. (9)If you think about it, you are basically saying that revealing sexual secrets about someone in front of numerous people can never be justified or explained, but that murdering someone can be. Seems a bit unfair to me.

1. Yet a number of people have tried.

2. I bring it up often because the other side tends to view it as a non-issue.

3. I think it was a more heat of the moment thing. It wasn't just Shae. EVERYONE fucked Tyrion over. Tyrion, after saving the city, watched as everyone happily screwed him over. The whole Tasha revelation further screwed him up.

I do not think one act in an emotionally screwed up state should be used as the single defining moment of his character despite everything else he done. Maybe in Dance, he'll go further down the road and become a monster. But as of now, I do think this one thing should be used to define his character.

As for the murder itself, it was evil. Shae did not deserve to die. She thought that embarrassing him would help her with Cersei and Tywin and maybe, as other have suggested, used it as a chance to show Tyrion what she truly thought of him. Neither case makes it worthy of death.

4. I sorta agree? Those exact words? Yes, I agree. It would be more accurate to say that Tyrion's emotional state is the mitigating factor. He was not in his right frame of mind. The humiliation was part of that reason, and Shae using it then was a trigger. But considering all he had just been through, I cannot blame him as much as I can blame Ser Gregor for the evil he has done.

5. I do? I honestly need a specific instance to defend myself against this accusation.

The best I can say is that during debates, I, like many people, can get a little overzealous.

I actually find Shae to be a very sympathetic character. I was genuinely sad when she died (at least as sad as you can be for a minor character).

However, when people attack *Tyrion unfairly (such as those who have argued directly or implied she was a sex slave) using Shae, my sympathy for Shae quickly evaporates.

It's not Shae so much as the nature of debates (at least on Internet forums). But I really can't explain myself too much without direct quotes.

6. Cersei's reprisal? While I am sure she was thrilled with Shae's testimony, I doubt Cersei threaten her into humiliating Tyrion. It just seems odd.

By Cersei's reaction to Shae, I truly believe she thought Shae was just a maid. I honestly think she might not have known Shae was actually telling some of the truth up their.

7. Pure evil might be going a little far. But as far as the rest of that sentence, that is often what it seems like, just like I am sure to you it often seems like my side believes Shae deserved to die (some do, but some do not).

Though I honestly can't think of any of the reasons given. So, I can't say my specific problems for them.

8. You have a point here. Though I have never blamed Shae for testifying (I don't think she betrayed him because she did not owe him loyalty) against Tyrion. Just humiliating him. But anyways, you have a point. Something pro-Shae does not have to be anti-Tyrion. If Shae had a good reason for her actions, it does not mean Tyrion is more evil.

It could be the debate getting to me or it could be that I never heard a good reason, I don't remember. I would need to see the reasons people have given again.

9. If I have said repeatedly (which I have) Shae did not deserve to die, why would I believe her actions are eviler or unjustifiable when compared to her murder? Like I have said I my last few points, maybe the debate kinda warped my thinking where I was a little overzealous or maybe I haven't been given a good enough reason.

I think one of the problems with (at least myself and some of the others) giving Shae's reasons for humiliation of Tyrion is it does not matter. Ultimately, Tyrion does not know. It does not make a difference whether they threaten to let Gregor rape her to death or she more than happy fuck Tyrion over.

We are not arguing about Shae. We are arguing about Tyrion. Since Tyrion did not know, it does not matter. Shae's motivations did not influence Tyrion's actions or motivations so they do not matter. So, I think we disregard any good motivation Shae have had to take humiliate Tyrion. This is wrong. Instead we should point out that since Tyrion did not know her motivation, it does not matter. He only knew his pain from the remarks along with the other emotional trauma he had suffered in a short amount of time. Some of which hurt more deeply than Shae humiliating him.

*I am sure some of the other side is probably getting a little overzealous too, possibly because of my posts.

[Nukelavee]

God DAMN it!

sql ate a long post that I'm beyond trying to recreate.

so - Yeah, I agree with Lord Bronn - this is getting way twisted up due to way too much transferal of bias and frustration/confusion.

So - apologies to people here whom I've lost track of the actual worth oftheir points because I'm overly concerned with imaginary images of the poster.

oh, the giant of Lannister line definately made it easier to overlook Shae's murder for the crime it was, for me.

[David Selig]

Wrong , betrayal is what this is all about. Someone you think you can trust totally betraying you for selfish reasons is as despicable a crime as there is.

But why would Tyrion thinks so about Shae? He was nothing more to her than a client, and he knew it deep down even though he tried to delude himself.

[SerFelixCulpa]

Sort of in the vein of what Lord Bronn Stokeworth has said, I'd like to also add that if anyone has been offended and so forth by anything I've written it was not intended personally, just for the sake of spirited debate. So apologies if that's the case...

...also, these discussion are quite helpful to me I find because even if they don't change my mind (though sometimes they do), they do force me to take a look at the evidence and appreciate any weaknesses and omissions I may not have considered at all or well enough. And quite often, it results at least in refinement of my positions. So even if I disagree with you, cheers. ;)

[Myrish swan]

Wrong , betrayal is what this is all about. Someone you think you can trust totally betraying you for selfish reasons is as despicable a crime as there is.

LOL, but few seem to cite this against BRONN. The fact is, Bronn did the exact. same. thing. He is merely not demonized for doing so.

I can see the standard Bronn defense here being, "well, Bronn was honest!" But Bronn's relationship with Tyrion has been, from the beginning, different from Shae's. Bronn and Tyrion have a more friendly, relaxed relationship; Tyrion is willing to see Bronn for what he is, and has no problem with that. He levels with Bronn, telling him he'll give him more of what he wants (money) to stay loyal.

With Shae, it is totally different. If Shae was ever totally honest with Tyrion, at any point, he would have promptly kicked her to the curb and found a whore more willing to flatter him and lie. As he tells her from the beginning, she is not just there to have sex with him. She is there to pretend she loves the sex, to rub his legs, laugh at his jokes, flatter him, and basically be his pretend girlfriend. For that he will pay her.

However, two issues. First, Tyrion is more relaxed with Bronn, and treats him as far more of an equal than he ever treats Shae. He relaxes with him, chats with him, jokes with him, and accepts far, far more backtalk and impudence from his sellsword than he does from Shae. (Bronn is allowed to say, "Fuck you, dwarf." Shae gets slapped for her own mild impudence, though. Yet every effort is taken to make Bronn's rudeness funny, Shae's nasty and deserving of retribution.)

Secondly, my main issue with the Tyrion/ Shae thing-- Tyrion never treats Shae as more than an employee. Unlike with Bronn, he is highly insecure, and he takes it out on her. He takes pains to always emphasize who is the boss (him) and who is the underling (Shae.) His insecurity will not allow him to do otherwise. Simultaneously, he begins to hope for and half expect real love and loyalty. This has the affect of increasing reader sympathy for Tyrion, and increasing resentment at Shae. How dare she, after Tyrion had been such a "romantic," and hoped so much for her affection?

On this board, though some are willing to admit that Tyrion never treated Shae as a friend, they often go on to note "Tyrion was too much of a romantic, and was hoping in his heart of heart that Shae truly loved him." These sort of comments have an affect that is twofold-- one, they increase feelings of sympathy for poor Tyrion. Secondly, they cunningly further blacken Shae's name and make Tyrion's murder of her more "understandable." People fail to see how creepy (and unfair) it is for to be treating Shae as a marked inferior and employee, and then hoping for love and affection in return from her. And then punishing her when she does feel any love or sympathy for him.

Finally, besides pretending to like the sex (what he hired her for) Shae never really misleads Tyrion as to her feelings for him, or gives him any impression that she truly loves him.

Worse than cold-blooded murder?? Of course not. Worse than murder in the name of vengeance? Debatable.

Yikes, I think you're lacking a bit of perspective here, to say the least. Honestly, I've heard people defending Tyrion on these threads arguing that everyone condemning Tyrion for his murder of his ex lover is irrational and unobjective. However, to me it seems as though Tyrion defenders are, ahem, quite passionate to say the least, themselves. You guys seem to relate so utterly to Tyrion that any insult against him is almost like an insult against you. And any alternate character interpretation is "slander."

. We are talking about more than public embarrassment ( although that made it more despicable, because she could have still testified and left out the "lion of lannister" parts ). We are talking about someone you thought was one of your closest friends helping to get you sentended to the DEATH PENALTY.

Public embarrassment... is deserving of being yelled at. Shae deserved to be bitched out and unceremoniously dumped by Tyrion. However, public embarrassment being grounds for homicide is utterly ridiculous. Although, countless women do get murdered by their boyfriends for cheating, talking back to, or "humiliating" their men each year. And we are encouraged to cheer at Shae's death, and feel that she deserves it. Numerous literary devices are used to accomplish this end, but I'm not even going to get into it. I just think it’s sad that so few other people are able to recognize GRRM's portrayal of Shae and actually question it, and are so quick to scoff at the suggestion that the portrayal of Shae carries overtones of sexism. Whatever.

We are talking about someone you thought was one of your closest friends helping to get you sentenced to the DEATH PENALTY.

Ummm.... Shae was his hired sex worker, not even an friendly acquaintance, much less a friend, much less "one of (Tyrion's closest friends." Honestly, i'm shocked that those who pretend so much objectivity on this issue are so willing to ignore/ accept comments like these. What anyone, whatever their feelings on the Shae betrayal, should be quick to point out here is that Shae was not Tyrion's friend, he never treated her that way or gave her any reason to think such as thing, and so Shae had no reason (or responsibility) to feel such loyalty towards him.

From the beginning, Tyrion treats Shae like an employee.

Secondly, and more importantly, Shae’s testimony was not responsible for sentencing Tyrion to death. It did not really even contribute to his conviction. At all. He was already doomed, with or without her testimony. All she did was make it so that, instead of being left in the lurch after he was convicted, she’d benefit from his downfall.

Sorry , but people can empathize with the need for revenge.

I can empathize with the desire for revenge. (The “need” for revenge, as you put it, does not exist. People don’t need revenge, the want it.) However, my sympathy would be more with people whose anger is righteous. Revenge can have an overtone of righteousness, or it can be petty and cruel. Tyrion’s was the latter, no matter how much it was made to look like the former. The fact that you (and many others) might feel “I would have loved to have killed a bitch like Shae too, if she’d did that to me,” does not make the action any more right, or even understandable. If you can’t see that, I am saddened… but not particularly surprised, at this point.

Sorry , but people can empathize with the need for revenge. If you can't handle anything outside of the world viewed through your estrogen goggles , maybe you should switch to Jane Austin novels...

This comment really tells me nothing, save that you have almost surely never read a Jane Austen novel. There is nothing more cold, cynical, and concerned with money than Austen's novels. The idea that these books are soft, "chick lit," is merely a myth put about by pop culture, probably originating from someone whom, like yourself, has never read the books.

Also-- it could be argued that Austen is 10 times more cold, unforgiving, and brutal than GRRM. And yes, vengeful. There are other ways to get vengeance besides murder, you know.

Finally-- "estrogen goggles?" Because revenge is exclusively a male prerogative? Or because one would have to be blinded by "estrogen goggles" to pity an 18 year old sex worker who is slowly strangled to death in bed with a metal necklace?

[Alexia]

...also, these discussion are quite helpful to me I find because even if they don't change my mind (though sometimes they do), they do force me to take a look at the evidence and appreciate any weaknesses and omissions I may not have considered at all or well enough. And quite often, it results at least in refinement of my positions. So even if I disagree with you, cheers. ;)

Same here...during the time I've been on the board, I've changed my mind on a couple things and been better able to articulate my positions/feelings on a number of characters/plotlines. I think its been fun, even when we don't agree! :)

Is it time for a sappy group hug yet? :grouphug:

[Nukelavee]

Dear God!

Yeah, Jane Austen is just...mannered, lol, P&P is pretty cruel and heartless...although nothing Martin has written approaches the sheer horror of Richard Burten and Liz Taylor for the last 30 minutes of "Who's Afraid..."

The board ate a point earlier today that was just mentioned - Bronn and Shae are, actually, very similar in a lot of ways.

Seriously - If you imagine the scene where Shae is approached for her performance at the trial, and Cersie asking "If we put you there to utterly destroy my brother, will you justgo ahead and do it", and Shae rubbing her fingers together and saying "No, first, I want to know...how much?", and, well, Bronn in bed with Lollys, Shae with Tywin..