Why did Shae betray Tyrion?

[Nukelavee]

Dear God!

Yeah, Jane Austen is just...mannered, lol, P&P is pretty cruel and heartless...although nothing Martin has written approaches the sheer horror of Richard Burten and Liz Taylor for the last 30 minutes of "Who's Afraid..."

The board ate a point earlier today that was just mentioned - Bronn and Shae are, actually, very similar in a lot of ways.

Seriously - If you imagine the scene where Shae is approached for her performance at the trial, and Cersie asking "If we put you there to utterly destroy my brother, will you justgo ahead and do it", and Shae rubbing her fingers together and saying "No, first, I want to know...how much?", and, well, Bronn in bed with Lollys, Shae with Tywin..

[SerFelixCulpa]

LOL, but few seem to cite this against BRONN. The fact is, Bronn did the exact. same. thing. He is merely not demonized for doing so.

I can see the standard Bronn defense here being, "well, Bronn was honest!" But Bronn's relationship with Tyrion has been, from the beginning, different from Shae's. Bronn and Tyrion have a more friendly, relaxed relationship; Tyrion is willing to see Bronn for what he is, and has no problem with that. He levels with Bronn, telling him he'll give him more of what he wants (money) to stay loyal.

This is self-contradiction. You cannot say both that "Bronn did the exact. same. thing." and at the same time talk about how different Bronn's and Tyrion's relationship was. The difference in the relationship is precisely why Bronn is more generally excused.

With Shae, it is totally different. If Shae was ever totally honest with Tyrion, at any point, he would have promptly kicked her to the curb and found a whore more willing to flatter him and lie. As he tells her from the beginning, she is not just there to have sex with him. She is there to pretend she loves the sex, to rub his legs, laugh at his jokes, flatter him, and basically be his pretend girlfriend. For that he will pay her.

I agree this is a problem and one reason Shae haters are somewhat off base in condemnations of her. There is a fundamental problem with any relationship which is fundamentally founded on nurturing a fiction...in this case, the fiction that Shae was interested in anything about Tyrion other than money. Unfortunately for Tyrion and Shae, she did her job a bit too well.

However, two issues. First, Tyrion is more relaxed with Bronn, and treats him as far more of an equal than he ever treats Shae. He relaxes with him, chats with him, jokes with him, and accepts far, far more backtalk and impudence from his sellsword than he does from Shae. (Bronn is allowed to say, "Fuck you, dwarf." Shae gets slapped for her own mild impudence, though. Yet every effort is taken to make Bronn's rudeness funny, Shae's nasty and deserving of retribution.)

This is one of the places where I think you're just not arguing from evidence, or rather, projecting what you want onto the evidence. I believe Morrigan up-thread dealt with the "Shae was only mildly teasing him" canard. I just don't accept it. I also don't accept that Tyrion had a different friendliness standard with Shae as such. Again, Tyrion's relationships with Bronn and Shae were (as you yourself noted above) quite different things. To the extent Tyrion and Bronn had a friendship (and as I've said before, I think it's clear that they actually did like each other on a personal level), it was one of those in which insults and profanity are traded as a form of banter. I have a few friends like that myself. Unfortunate for Shae, I guess, that at prostitute school they do not encourage this form of banter. I doubt any prostitute would be able to found a decent career on the promise that they won't charge extra for saying "Fuck you, dwarf!" to clients.

Not that it matters, by the way, but Bronn actually is funny, whereas I do not recall Shae demonstrating any particular skill at humor. But maybe you don't accept that, it is in some respects a question of taste. Regardless, if your method of interacting with others is to be coarse and/or obscene, then it shouldn't surprise others when you say coarse and obscene things. If your employment is predicated on your sex appeal combined with acting the part of a "girlfriend," it tends to stick out more.

Secondly, my main issue with the Tyrion/ Shae thing-- Tyrion never treats Shae as more than an employee. Unlike with Bronn, he is highly insecure, and he takes it out on her. He takes pains to always emphasize who is the boss (him) and who is the underling (Shae.) His insecurity will not allow him to do otherwise. Simultaneously, he begins to hope for and half expect real love and loyalty. This has the affect of increasing reader sympathy for Tyrion, and increasing resentment at Shae. How dare she, after Tyrion had been such a "romantic," and hoped so much for her affection?

I agree Tyrion is insecure with Shae. It's essentially cognitive dissonance: he knows she's an employee and she's paid to do certain things. Those things (having sex and pretending to love it, and generally being nice and treating him as if his company was what she wanted), however, are in contradiction to what he knows. As I said before, Shae is a little too good at her job. I also dispute the notion that he emphasized the fact he's the boss any more with Shae than he did with Bronn. If anything, Shae was repeatedly able to get Tyrion to do things he had expressly decided against and a lot of the problems that arose arose precisely because Tyrion forgot or overlooked the fact she was an employee. Please provide examples of where you contend where he emphasized his dominance over Shae in a manner he didn't do with Bronn. (Yes, there is when he hit her. It was not a cold or calculating "I'm the boss thing," it was an impulsive reaction to her having hit one of his buttons. He also immediately regretted it, apologized, and explained the Tysha situation to her...this is not exactly how you treat an employee you are systematically trying to show who's boss.)

On this board, though some are willing to admit that Tyrion never treated Shae as a friend, they often go on to note "Tyrion was too much of a romantic, and was hoping in his heart of heart that Shae truly loved him." These sort of comments have an affect that is twofold-- one, they increase feelings of sympathy for poor Tyrion. Secondly, they cunningly further blacken Shae's name and make Tyrion's murder of her more "understandable." People fail to see how creepy (and unfair) it is for to be treating Shae as a marked inferior and employee, and then hoping for love and affection in return from her. And then punishing her when she does feel any love or sympathy for him.

Anyone stating Tyrion was a hopeless romantic is gilding the lily far too much. Tyrion knew she didn't love him, though he lost sight of it from time to time. I do think he hoped that Shae at least liked him, sort of in the same way Bronn did. In other words, that the betrayal was not malicious. His first reaction upon realizing Shae was to testify against him was that they must have forced her, and he didn't hold that against her at that point. It was only after there was evidence the betrayal was at least in part malicious that he was angered. Anyway, the authorial intent there was very much to elicit sympathy for Tyrion which sets up how a basically good man comes to do something pretty bad. It is not blackening Shae's name or bleaching Tyrion's to observe that his reaction was understandable. As a matter of plottting, it needs to be. (It is true that I am cunning though, just not on this point. :))

Finally, besides pretending to like the sex (what he hired her for) Shae never really misleads Tyrion as to her feelings for him, or gives him any impression that she truly loves him.

So let me get this straight: other than pretending against all reasonable expectation that Tyrion is a handsome sexual dynamo whose company only makes her hungry for more, Shae didn't mislead Tyrion at all? Yes, we understand she was paid to do this, but again we see one of the inherent problems with paying people to lie to you. And even if you don't think this was misleading (I would allow it wasn't intentionally misleading), she certainly never told him or indicated what she actually thought of him until he was being tried on a capital charge...when she took the opportunity to intentionally humiliate him in addition to perjuring against him. The "Giant of Lannister" line didn't hurt him because she perjured herself there: it hurt because it was the truth.

Yikes, I think you're lacking a bit of perspective here, to say the least. Honestly, I've heard people defending Tyrion on these threads arguing that everyone condemning Tyrion for his murder of his ex lover is irrational and unobjective. However, to me it seems as though Tyrion defenders are, ahem, quite passionate to say the least, themselves. You guys seem to relate so utterly to Tyrion that any insult against him is almost like an insult against you. And any alternate character interpretation is "slander."

Public embarrassment... is deserving of being yelled at. Shae deserved to be bitched out and unceremoniously dumped by Tyrion. However, public embarrassment being grounds for homicide is utterly ridiculous. Although, countless women do get murdered by their boyfriends for cheating, talking back to, or "humiliating" their men each year. And we are encouraged to cheer at Shae's death, and feel that she deserves it. Numerous literary devices are used to accomplish this end, but I'm not even going to get into it. I just think it’s sad that so few other people are able to recognize GRRM's portrayal of Shae and actually question it, and are so quick to scoff at the suggestion that the portrayal of Shae carries overtones of sexism. Whatever.

Anyone who has said condemning Tyrion for Shae's murder is irrational or unobjective has committed the sin of saying something foolish. And I'd have to plead guilty to sympathizing with Tyrion in general, 'tis true. Again though, the authorial intent is precisely to show him as flawed-but-sympathetic. Us having interpreted the author in precisely the way he intended strikes me as a very odd criticism.

On the other hand, I don't hate Shae either. In her life, she was a bigger victim than Tyrion, I have never disputed this nor have most of the other "pro-Tyrion" commentators. Shae's only real crime was essentially making a very spiteful comment to him that was intended to (and did) hurt his feelings badly. Tyrion most certainly did not deserve that (and particularly not in the situation he was in), but one cruel remark does not justify murder. We've repeatedly conceded this point.

Nor is GRRM being sexist in portraying a medieval-level society as being sexist. Westeros (and for that matter every other place in GRRMland) is a very sexist place. No dispute there. I'm just not inclined to blame Tyrion Lannister for male patriarchy, lack of education, and brute force in particular, especially since my interpretation of the available evidence is that he is much more close to "enlightened" than practically any other male character in the books I can think of.

Ummm.... Shae was his hired sex worker, not even an friendly acquaintance, much less a friend, much less "one of (Tyrion's closest friends." Honestly, i'm shocked that those who pretend so much objectivity on this issue are so willing to ignore/ accept comments like these. What anyone, whatever their feelings on the Shae betrayal, should be quick to point out here is that Shae was not Tyrion's friend, he never treated her that way or gave her any reason to think such as thing, and so Shae had no reason (or responsibility) to feel such loyalty towards him.

From the beginning, Tyrion treats Shae like an employee.

Secondly, and more importantly, Shae’s testimony was not responsible for sentencing Tyrion to death. It did not really even contribute to his conviction. At all. He was already doomed, with or without her testimony. All she did was make it so that, instead of being left in the lurch after he was convicted, she’d benefit from his downfall.

Actually, the tragedy of Tyrion Lannister is that Shae was one of his closest friends. To say this is not to say they were close or even really friends. (Shae most certainly was not his friend.) It's to get to one of the central reasons why Tyrion deserves our sympathy: he is a good man who has been despised for his entire life for reasons that are entirely cosmetic.

Shae's testimony didn't "even contribute to his conviction"? It certainly did. Maybe not much, and obviously, he'd have been convicted anyway. To say it didn't even contribute mistakes the very definition of contribution. On your reasoning, no one contributed to his conviction and everyone escapes responsibility for it since he'd have been convicted even without the testimony of any given person.

I can empathize with the desire for revenge. (The “need” for revenge, as you put it, does not exist. People don’t need revenge, the want it.) However, my sympathy would be more with people whose anger is righteous. Revenge can have an overtone of righteousness, or it can be petty and cruel. Tyrion’s was the latter, no matter how much it was made to look like the former. The fact that you (and many others) might feel “I would have loved to have killed a bitch like Shae too, if she’d did that to me,” does not make the action any more right, or even understandable. If you can’t see that, I am saddened… but not particularly surprised, at this point.

I agree revenge is a desire, not a need. I don't think the commenter was trying to say that. I also agree Tyrion was petty and cruel in killing her. To say that we understand and even sympathize to an extent is not to cloak the act in the mantle of righteousness.

This comment really tells me nothing, save that you have almost surely never read a Jane Austen novel. There is nothing more cold, cynical, and concerned with money than Austen's novels. The idea that these books are soft, "chick lit," is merely a myth put about by pop culture, probably originating from someone whom, like yourself, has never read the books.

Also-- it could be argued that Austen is 10 times more cold, unforgiving, and brutal than GRRM. And yes, vengeful. There are other ways to get vengeance besides murder, you know.

Agreed, I shuddered at that comment.

Finally-- "estrogen goggles?" Because revenge is exclusively a male prerogative? Or because one would have to be blinded by "estrogen goggles" to pity an 18 year old sex worker who is slowly strangled to death in bed with a metal necklace?

And nearly vomited at this one. ;)

[BigBellyBen]

The question was why did Shae betray Tyrion. I'm saying why wouldn't she betray him. He treated her terribly.

He treated her terribly? How? In what context? She was a whore set to milk him for everything he was worth by playing on his insecurity and his,albeit stupid, trust for her. She manipulated him as pawn to get what she wanted and he did some of the same, they had a symbiotic relationship. When things got rough for him of course they had to get rough for her, she's not his lady wife she's a gloried prostitute and a conniving schemer. When you play the game of hookers, you win or you die.

[Nukelavee]

Btw - Interesting point about Bronn and Tyrion's relationship: right after the riot, when Myrcella leaves, Lollys gets raped, Santagar dies, etc...

Bronn shows up in Tyrion's chambers, and it's pointed out that Tyrion has to force himself to make allowances for Bronn and his mouth, that Bronn actually really pisses him off at times.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

(1)On this board, though some are willing to admit that Tyrion never

treated Shae as a friend, they often go on to note "Tyrion was too much

of a romantic, and was hoping in his heart of heart that Shae truly

loved him." These sort of comments have an affect that is twofold--

one, they increase feelings of sympathy for poor Tyrion. Secondly, they

cunningly further blacken Shae's name and make Tyrion's murder of her

more "understandable." People fail to see how creepy (and unfair) it is

for to be treating Shae as a marked inferior and employee, and then

hoping for love and affection in return from her. And then punishing

her when she does feel any love or sympathy for him.

(2)Finally, besides pretending to like the sex (what he hired her for)

Shae never really misleads Tyrion as to her feelings for him, or gives

him any impression that she truly loves him.

Yikes, I think you're lacking a bit of perspective here, to say the

least. (3)Honestly, I've heard people defending Tyrion on these threads

arguing that everyone condemning Tyrion for his murder of his ex lover

is irrational and unobjective. However, to me it seems as though Tyrion

defenders are, ahem, quite passionate to say the least, themselves. You

guys seem to relate so utterly to Tyrion that any insult against him is

almost like an insult against you. And any alternate character

interpretation is "slander."

(4)Public embarrassment... is deserving of being yelled at. Shae

deserved to be bitched out and unceremoniously dumped by Tyrion.

However, public embarrassment being grounds for homicide is utterly

ridiculous. Although, countless women do get murdered by their

boyfriends for cheating, talking back to, or "humiliating" their men

each year. And we are encouraged to cheer at Shae's death, and feel

that she deserves it. (5)Numerous literary devices are used to

accomplish this end, but I'm not even going to get into it. I just

think it’s sad that so few other people are able to recognize GRRM's

portrayal of Shae and actually question it, and are so quick to scoff

at the suggestion that the portrayal of Shae carries overtones of

sexism. Whatever.

Ummm.... Shae was his hired sex worker, not even an friendly

acquaintance, much less a friend, much less "one of (Tyrion's closest

friends." (6)Honestly, i'm shocked that those who pretend so much

objectivity on this issue are so willing to ignore/ accept comments

like these. What anyone, whatever their feelings on the Shae betrayal,

should be quick to point out here is that Shae was not Tyrion's friend,

he never treated her that way or gave her any reason to think such as

thing, and so Shae had no reason (or responsibility) to feel such

loyalty towards him.

1. Who exactly are you quoting? Seriously. I don't remember anyone saying that. You are deliberately distorting what we were saying (conveniently you answer these people by not quoting these "cunning" people, but by someone who they themselves would argue is too extreme in his defense of Tyrion ).

Us "cunning" people have not taken the position of poor Tyrion as a hopeless romantic. No. We simply read the book and read the words he repeatedly told himself. He repeatedly told himself it was his gold not his heart.

Nor do I see how it blackens Shae's name. Really, it reveals Tyrion has a pathetic side, since he desperately wants love even from a whore but knows no woman will ever love him.

2. You mean like when she tells him she loves him?

I don't blame her. She's just doing her job as a fantasy girlfriend.

But she did happily lead him on. He knew it. He never considered her anything more than a whore.

But your statement is untrue.

3. I laughed at this. I was reading everyone on both sides basically saying, "you know, maybe we are getting a little intense." Some even apologized if they accidentally offended anyone.

But not you. You include a big, "Fuck You!" to the Tyrion defenders by saying we're all defending him because we are all like him. And considering your opinion, it is a pretty big "Fuck You!"

4. I agree. Oh, wait. I must be being "cunning." No way can I legitimately think Shae is a victim and Tyrion is not an evil monster or GRRM isn't inherently sexist. Perish the thought.

Such thinking is too advanced for, if not by the human race, us Tyrion defenders at least.

5. Well, I thought Shae was a sympathetic character so, I don't really see where GRRM is being sexist.

6. Why should I waste time arguing with someone who is not arguing against me. It takes time to make these posts. That is the other side's responsibility (and you do it well). I have made it clear over and over that SHAE WAS NOT WRONG IN TESTIFYING AGAINST TYRION.

Hell, SHAE WAS NOT REALLY WRONG IN HUMILIATING TYRION IF ALL SHE WAS TRYING TO IS GO OVER THE TOP FOR CERSEI AND TYWIN.

But her motivations do not matter. Tyrion did not know them. He only knew his pain caused by her and the Tasha revelation (which certainly hurt him more) and all of the other pain he had just gone through. Those are the things to take into account at looking at Tyrion's actions. Shae's motivations for the humiliation do matter since he did not know them and therefore was not influenced in his action.

Also, why should we correct people not arguing against us when you obviously think it is a trick and won't believe us anyways?

(7)I agree this is a problem and one reason Shae haters are somewhat off base in condemnations of her. There is a fundamental problem with any relationship which is fundamentally founded on nurturing a fiction...in this case, the fiction that Shae was interested in anything about Tyrion other than money. Unfortunately for Tyrion and Shae, she did her job a bit too well.

(8)This is one of the places where I think you're just not arguing from evidence, or rather, projecting what you want onto the evidence. I believe Morrigan up-thread dealt with the "Shae was only mildly teasing him" canard. I just don't accept it. I also don't accept that Tyrion had a different friendliness standard with Shae as such. Again, Tyrion's relationships with Bronn and Shae were (as you yourself noted above) quite different things. To the extent Tyrion and Bronn had a friendship (and as I've said before, I think it's clear that they actually did like each other on a personal level), it was one of those in which insults and profanity are traded as a form of banter. I have a few friends like that myself. Unfortunate for Shae, I guess, that at prostitute school they do not encourage this form of banter. I doubt any prostitute would be able to found a decent career on the promise that they won't charge extra for saying "Fuck you, dwarf!" to clients.

Not that it matters, by the way, but Bronn actually is funny, whereas I do not recall Shae demonstrating any particular skill at humor. But maybe you don't accept that, it is in some respects a question of taste. Regardless, if your method of interacting with others is to be coarse and/or obscene, then it shouldn't surprise others when you say coarse and obscene things. If your employment is predicated on your sex appeal combined with acting the part of a "girlfriend," it tends to stick out more.

(9)I agree Tyrion is insecure with Shae. It's essentially cognitive dissonance: he knows she's an employee and she's paid to do certain things. Those things (having sex and pretending to love it, and generally being nice and treating him as if his company was what she wanted), however, are in contradiction to what he knows. As I said before, Shae is a little too good at her job. I also dispute the notion that he emphasized the fact he's the boss any more with Shae than he did with Bronn. If anything, Shae was repeatedly able to get Tyrion to do things he had expressly decided against and a lot of the problems that arose arose precisely because Tyrion forgot or overlooked the fact she was an employee. Please provide examples of where you contend where he emphasized his dominance over Shae in a manner he didn't do with Bronn. (Yes, there is when he hit her. It was not a cold or calculating "I'm the boss thing," it was an impulsive reaction to her having hit one of his buttons. He also immediately regretted it, apologized, and explained the Tysha situation to her...this is not exactly how you treat an employee you are systematically trying to show who's boss.)

(10)Anyone stating Tyrion was a hopeless romantic is gilding the lily far too much. Tyrion knew she didn't love him, though he lost sight of it from time to time. I do think he hoped that Shae at least liked him, sort of in the same way Bronn did. In other words, that the betrayal was not malicious. His first reaction upon realizing Shae was to testify against him was that they must have forced her, and he didn't hold that against her at that point. It was only after there was evidence the betrayal was at least in part malicious that he was angered. Anyway, the authorial intent there was very much to elicit sympathy for Tyrion which sets up how a basically good man comes to do something pretty bad. It is not blackening Shae's name or bleaching Tyrion's to observe that his reaction was understandable. As a matter of plottting, it needs to be. (It is true that I am cunning though, just not on this point. :))

7. Ah. You're a cunning one. By stating you think Shae wasn't doing a bad thing, you're really making her look worse and making people pity Tyrion even more.

Shame on you.

*We really need a dripping sarcasm smiley.

8. Why that sounds almost logical. Except as Swan pointed out, Bronn and Shae are to be only treated the same when it is convenient for her argument. You even pointed it out yourself.

9. Felix, Felix, Felix. Cognitive dissonance? No. Clearly if we capable of such thought, we would not be defending Tyrion.

We are defending Tyrion because we think any bitch/whore who embarrasses us deserves to fucking die.

NOT because we think complex psychological factors affect their relationship and Tyrion committed his crime more due to his general fucked-up emotional state rather than "kill the whore who embarrassed me" in cold blood. Or that we think it makes a big difference of whether Tyrion is an evil man or simplly did an evil thing.

10. Of course, the people arguing that point really haven't said Tyrion is a hopeless romantic or bashed Shae for not loving him.

[Alexia]

Bronn shows up in Tyrion's chambers, and it's pointed out that Tyrion has to force himself to make allowances for Bronn and his mouth, that Bronn actually really pisses him off at times.

I can't resist pointing out the difference in how Tyrion reacts when Shae's mouth pisses him off vs. when Bronn's mouth pisses him off. As I recall it, Tyrion made a couple sour comments and that was that. He slaps Shae. And I think Bronn was much ruder to him too; he was always calling him dwarf and whatnot. Its an interesting contrast.

BTW, Nuke, based on your comments in the Tysha thread I meant to send this to you. We've lost PM power, and I'm not posting again in that thread as I'm somewhat aghast at some of it, but I thought you'd be interested and it IS somewhat relevant to the conversation we're having here. Nick Kristof posted it to his Facebook page.

But her motivations do not matter. Tyrion did not know them. He only knew his pain caused by her and the Tasha revelation (which certainly hurt him more) and all of the other pain he had just gone through. Those are the things to take into account at looking at Tyrion's actions. Shae's motivations for the humiliation do matter since he did not know them and therefore was not influenced in his action.

Lord Bronn, I think Tyrion realistically should have understood some of what was going on. For one thing, he even thinks that of course Cersei would question Sansa's maids but then he relaxed, in this trial where evidence is being twisted and falsified against him, and thinks that its all right because she doesn't know anything that can hurt him. He also thought that she looked scared.

The logical assumption is that Cersei forced her to testify. Another fairly logical assumption is that Cersei wrote Shae's testimony for her (with the possible exception of the Giant of Lannister remark). But Tyrion didn't get upset that Shae testified against him - he got upset that she lied, and it seems to me that his upset was misdirected when it should have gone towards Cersei and Tywin. They are conducting the trial, Cersei is falsifying evidence and getting witnesses up there - and how does a prostitute have any chance against the Queen of the Seven Kingdoms?

I think that its illogical to believe that Shae had much agency in the matter, given who the prosecution is and who Shae is.

BTW, I want a pair of estrogen goggles! Where do I go to get them! :P

[BigBellyBen]

Btw - Interesting point about Bronn and Tyrion's relationship: right after the riot, when Myrcella leaves, Lollys gets raped, Santagar dies, etc...

Bronn shows up in Tyrion's chambers, and it's pointed out that Tyrion has to force himself to make allowances for Bronn and his mouth, that Bronn actually really pisses him off at times.

Bronn is a hired man, he's there to be just what he is. Shae is a hired whores, she's there to fullfil a requirement. And part of Tyrions original stipulation is that she act the part of the perfect girlfriend. She basically sold him up the river, which is fine so did Bronn. But Bronn never pretended that he wouldn't and he also never flat out disrespected Ty the way that Shae did. She went out of her way to embarrass and degrade him out of spite, knowing that he would never get the chance to retaliate. Bronn has always been looking for a way out of his station, and when he got it he took it. He didn't per se betray Tyrion and in fact he did him a sideways honor by naming the kid after him to spite Cersi.

Aside from that, Jane Austen is a terrible writer, barring only Ayn Rand.Her characters are all pretty much two dimensional self inserts and soap opera bullcrap. It's like Twilight for the 18th century.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

(1)Lord Bronn, I think Tyrion realistically should have understood some of what was going on. For one thing, he even thinks that of course Cersei would question Sansa's maids but then he relaxed, in this trial where evidence is being twisted and falsified against him, and thinks that its all right because she doesn't know anything that can hurt him. He also thought that she looked scared.

(2)The logical assumption is that Cersei forced her to testify. Another fairly logical assumption is that Cersei wrote Shae's testimony for her (with the possible exception of the Giant of Lannister remark). (3)But Tyrion didn't get upset that Shae testified against him - he got upset that she lied, and it seems to me that (4)his upset was misdirected when it should have gone towards Cersei and Tywin. They are conducting the trial, Cersei is falsifying evidence and getting witnesses up there - and how does a prostitute have any chance against the Queen of the Seven Kingdoms?

I think that its illogical to believe that Shae had much agency in the matter, given who the prosecution is and who Shae is.

(5)BTW, I want a pair of estrogen goggles! Where do I go to get them! :P

1. If he was in a normal frame of mind, certainly. However, Tyrion was not. He was framed by (he thinks) his wife. This is after he did everything he could to make her comfortable with him and her situation. Almost everyone believes he did it, including his father and uncle. He had hope in trial-by-combat, only to see it crushed. Then, he learns the whore he married was never a whore. She wasn't being paid for a gang bang to teach him a sick lesson. She was gang raped (and he joined in thinking it was something else) to teach him a sick lesson. On top of that, his brother, the only person in the entire world he had left, had been in on it. Oh, and his whore humiliated him in front of everyone.

Honestly, Shae was probably not on his mind. Tasha was. Then he ran into Shae. He did not know what he was going to do to her. It was a moment of rage during a time he was on the brink with the revelation of Tasha. He did not know her reason. He did not care. He was lashing out, and Shae was in his reach.

Does that make it right? Of course not.

Does it mean Shae is a bad person? No. She was a lowly whore who got mixed up in the rich and powerful and paid the price. She was not an innocent, but she did not deserve the fate she got.

Then what is my point? My point is Shae's murder was not an act that Tyrion would have normally have committed (unless he thought she would alert the guards, but he probably would try to get her to take the secret passage first) even with the humiliation. While it itself was an evil act, it is not the defining act of Tyrion's character (at least at this point, ADwD and later books may change this).

Honestly, it is important to remember we do not have to choose one to be good and the other bad. They both can be viewed as tragic and sympathetic characters. There is no reason feeling sympathy for one needs to cancel out sympathy for the other.

After all, does everyone that started liking Jaimie in ASoS have to hate Brann now? Does everyone who like Dany must hate every character that will oppose her? Not every conflict has "bad" guys. Some, like Tyrion and Shae in the end, simply have conflict. There is no reason that we as readers can't view both in a good light.

2. Tyrion acknowledge that and did not hold it against her.

3. It was the humiliation, not the lying that angered him. He probably assumed she would lie when they brought here up there. It was the remarks that were so close to the truth.

4. Oh. I think he would have killed Cersei with less hesitation, and he went to Tywin's room with more or less the intention to kill him. He was angry at Shae, but Tasha was at the foremost of his mind.

Tyrion basically was having a nervous breakdown, and Shae was unfortunately in front of him. Shae was not a target, but more collateral damage of his true target (Tywin).

5. Now that you mention it, it would be an interesting experience....

6. I just noticed how great these go together.

:rofl: :whip:

[A wilding]

Shae is a hired whores, she's there to fullfil a requirement. And part of Tyrions original stipulation is that she act the part of the perfect girlfriend. She basically sold him up the river, which is fine so did Bronn. But Bronn never pretended that he wouldn't and he also never flat out disrespected Ty the way that Shae did.

Don't you see a contradiction there? Shae was required by Tyrion "to act the part of the perfect girlfriend". Yet at the same time you want her to keep making it clear to him that that she will sell him up the river as soon as a better offer comes along!

[David Selig]

Don't you see a contradiction there? Shae was required by Tyrion "to act the part of the perfect girlfriend". Yet at the same time you want her to keep making it clear to him that that she will sell him up the river as soon as a better offer comes along!

Exactly my thoughts.

I don't get how people can speak of betrayal in this case. Tyrion was just a client to Shae, nothing more, and as much as he tried to delude himself at times that there was more to their relationship, he knew it well deep down. And even if he didn't, it would be his own fault for lying to himself.

[BigBellyBen]

Don't you see a contradiction there? Shae was required by Tyrion "to act the part of the perfect girlfriend". Yet at the same time you want her to keep making it clear to him that that she will sell him up the river as soon as a better offer comes along!

If I go to McDonald's and constantly chit chat and tip one of the workers. I would expect that they at least be cordial to me. Shae chose to be a camp follower, it's pretty much suggested that she isn't even poor and probably just a runaway from some mildly rich lord's keep. She has a job, if she was dissatisfied with that job she had ample time to leave Tyrion never said she was a slave and that she couldn't just demand payment and go about her merry whorish way.

It's no contridiction, she's a whore not a spy. I would assume if I purchased a prostitue that she would finish her job and not run to the police and lie to them and tell them that I'm a child pornographer. That's pretty much tantamount to what she did. Everyone is trying to make it seem like prostitute=liar. To put it simply, we expect Bronn to jump ship at a knighthood. I don't expect him to go out of his way to condemn Ty. She could have just jumped ship, instead she tried to barter his life and honor for a pittance. She threw away his life to save her own, so he turn the tables. What is the issue? Game of Thones, you win or you die.

[BigBellyBen]

Exactly my thoughts.

I don't get how people can speak of betrayal in this case. Tyrion was just a client to Shae, nothing more, and as much as he tried to delude himself at times that there was more to their relationship, he knew it well deep down. And even if he didn't, it would be his own fault for lying to himself.

They do have a relationship, a business one. I don't know why people can't understand this. A sellsword is not the same as a sellcrotch. A sellsword by nature is a devious person who is there to make money by killing. A prostitute is not the same thing. She is a business, and she stepped outside their business relationship and basically tried to use his life as a bartering chip. She essentially was the final nail in his coffin. She attempted to kill him by proxy. He killed her first hand. We all seem to have forgotten that he got another woman whipped and almost killed to protect Shae. He went out of his way to protect her from his father, and all she does is betray him and sacrifice him.

[SerFelixCulpa]

Tyrion was just a client to Shae, nothing more, and as much as he tried to delude himself at times that there was more to their relationship, he knew it well deep down.

All indisputably true.

And even if he didn't, it would be his own fault for lying to himself.

What exactly is his fault? I agree having allowed himself to develop an emotional attachment to Shae was naive and ill-advised. I suppose that's his 'fault' but that's not a very useful proposition to my way of thinking. He certainly paid a price for it at any rate...

But let's be clear about what is NOT Tyrion's fault:

(1) Being falsely accused of a capital crime;

(2) Being tried in a kangaroo court by his own family where the outcome (at least as far as evidence goes) was predetermined;

(3) The entire Tysha incident, or for that matter, the timing of its revelation to him;

(4) Shae's perjury and/or Shae's choice to use the truth to publicly humiliate Tyrion at the trial and her very ill-advised attempt to use it again.

A lot of talk has centered around what does or does not constitute 'betrayal' in this context. Many people have repeatedly made the argument, "Shae was his employee; therefore no betrayal because how can an employee betray you?" This is a truly twisted view of employment. I don't think anyone here views an employee/employer relationship as properly existing in the context of, "Well, I'll fuck you for money but if your sister decides to pay me more money I'll perjure myself against you as part of a plot to have you executed and I might just throw in a little humiliation too because really, you're just gross." A change in employment for Shae would have been going to someone else because they had beat Tyrion's offer for "girlfriend" services. It's just not what happened here.

In other words, while we recognize that the threat of violence against Shae mostly or even entirely excuses the perjury against Tyrion, I think it's very wrong to keep casting that in the light of, "She just took a better employment offer." That's not what happened, and the continued implication that what Shae did was somehow a strange act of virtue just badly misses the mark.

Thought experiment: let us say the book made it clear that Shae had merely heard that Cersei had it in for Tyrion. She goes of her own accord to Cersei and makes the following offer, "Pay me more money and I'll tell some doozies about him at trial! (And I'll humiliate the disgusting little dwarf free of charge.)" Is this simply a change in employment? I'd wager even the most staunchly pro-Shae person among you would have to concede it is not. In that situation, I would argue it's in fact a betrayal. People have been betrayed for money over the years...

It is only the threat of force against Shae that mitigates or excuses anything she said at the trial. Otherwise, she has not just switched to a new employer with a better 401(k) plan and more vacation time: she has actively sold out another human being's life for money. And one who really doesn't deserve it either.

And let me add again before someone else does: no, Shae didn't deserve to die under any analysis, and most certainly when there was a legitimate threat of violence against her. But the notion that Tyrion should have just been cool about it because Shae did the Westerosi equivalent of going to another company because it has a better salad bar? Ridiculous.

[BigBellyBen]

All indisputably true.

What exactly is his fault? I agree having allowed himself to develop an emotional attachment to Shae was naive and ill-advised. I suppose that's his 'fault' but that's not a very useful proposition to my way of thinking. He certainly paid a price for it at any rate...

But let's be clear about what is NOT Tyrion's fault:

(1) Being falsely accused of a capital crime;

(2) Being tried in a kangaroo court by his own family where the outcome (at least as far as evidence goes) was predetermined;

(3) The entire Tysha incident, or for that matter, the timing of its revelation to him;

(4) Shae's perjury and/or Shae's choice to use the truth to publicly humiliate Tyrion at the trial and her very ill-advised attempt to use it again.

A lot of talk has centered around what does or does not constitute 'betrayal' in this context. Many people have repeatedly made the argument, "Shae was his employee; therefore no betrayal because how can an employee betray you?" This is a truly twisted view of employment. I don't think anyone here views an employee/employer relationship as properly existing in the context of, "Well, I'll fuck you for money but if your sister decides to pay me more money I'll perjure myself against you as part of a plot to have you executed and I might just throw in a little humiliation too because really, you're just gross." A change in employment for Shae would have been going to someone else because they had beat Tyrion's offer for "girlfriend" services. It's just not what happened here.

In other words, while we recognize that the threat of violence against Shae mostly or even entirely excuses the perjury against Tyrion, I think it's very wrong to keep casting that in the light of, "She just took a better employment offer." That's not what happened, and the continued implication that what Shae did was somehow a strange act of virtue just badly misses the mark.

Thought experiment: let us say the book made it clear that Shae had merely heard that Cersei had it in for Tyrion. She goes of her own accord to Cersei and makes the following offer, "Pay me more money and I'll tell some doozies about him at trial! (And I'll humiliate the disgusting little dwarf free of charge.)" Is this simply a change in employment? I'd wager even the most staunchly pro-Shae person among you would have to concede it is not. In that situation, I would argue it's in fact a betrayal. People have been betrayed for money over the years...

It is only the threat of force against Shae that mitigates or excuses anything she said at the trial. Otherwise, she has not just switched to a new employer with a better 401(k) plan and more vacation time: she has actively sold out another human being's life for money. And one who really doesn't deserve it either.

And let me add again before someone else does: no, Shae didn't deserve to die under any analysis, and most certainly when there was a legitimate threat of violence against her. But the notion that Tyrion should have just been cool about it because Shae did the Westerosi equivalent of going to another company because it has a better salad bar? Ridiculous.

She absolutely deserved to die. I never expected her to go out of her way to protect Tyrion. But she sold him to be slaughtered. You're basically saying that in possible threat to one's own body it is excusable to proffer up false evidence against someone for the sake of your own skin. So her proxy killing of Tyion is on,condemning him to death is allowable. But becasue he actually killed her he's magically wrong?

Betrayal comes from her going out of her way to make him look horrible and participating in his condemnation. Tywin also got murdered for a similar betrayal, one that wasn't even lifethreatening to Tyrion, but nobody is lauding how terrible it was he killed his father. Why? Because Tywin did something inexcusable, and Tyrion's only recourse was to kill him, and the same applies to Shae. We have seen how the "legal system" works in Westeros, the only justice Tyrion was going to get was the kind he took.

[David Selig]

To clarify - Shae's perjury at Tyrion's trial was a bad act unless we learn for certain she was threatened by Cercei to do it which is debatable. And adding the whole "giant of Lannister" thing was really mean and indefensible in any case.

But it was not a betrayal. Tyrion wasn't Shae's friend. He was a client. You can't betray a client in my view if that's the extend of your relationship. Did Tyrion have a reason to be angry at Shae for her perjury and mocking? Absolutely? But to feel betrayed? Not really.

[Blaine]

A sellsword is not the same as a sellcrotch.

Sellcrotch = Worst. Way. To. Advertise. Prostitution. Ever.

[SerFelixCulpa]

She absolutely deserved to die. I never expected her to go out of her way to protect Tyrion. But she sold him to be slaughtered. You're basically saying that in possible threat to one's own body it is excusable to proffer up false evidence against someone for the sake of your own skin. So her proxy killing of Tyion is on,condemning him to death is allowable. But becasue he actually killed her he's magically wrong?

Betrayal comes from her going out of her way to make him look horrible and participating in his condemnation. Tywin also got murdered for a similar betrayal, one that wasn't even lifethreatening to Tyrion, but nobody is lauding how terrible it was he killed his father. Why? Because Tywin did something inexcusable, and Tyrion's only recourse was to kill him, and the same applies to Shae. We have seen how the "legal system" works in Westeros, the only justice Tyrion was going to get was the kind he took.

Yes, I am saying it is 'excusable' to perjure yourself against someone when you are under a threat of violence and there is no authority you can go to for protection or avenue you can take to avoid it. That entire trial was a kangaroo court, and Shae would likely have been horribly tortured and/or killed if she had not agreed to do what she did. This does not make it a virtuous act (let alone a "change of employment"), but it does make it understandable. Just as Tyrion killing Shae was not a virtuous act (in fact a worse act in the end that what Shae did), but it is meant to be understandable under the circumstances.

To the extent any of Shae's trial testimony was done merely for money or else out of spite, yeah, it was a betrayal of some description. Tywin I agree is a different and more justifiable matter, though I wonder how you can say Tywin's betrayals of his son were not lifethreatening.

At any rate, if you haven't read the Tyrion sample chapter from ADwD...

Tyrion makes clear in retrospect he had to kill Tywin. Tyrion told Tywin he'd shoot him the next time Tywin called Tysha a whore. Tywin did it again, and at that point Tyrion knew he had to follow through on the threat because if he didn't Tywin would assume he was unable or unwilling to do it, and would have taken the crossbow and raised the alarm. It was actually pure self-defense.

But again, you yourself recognize how the legal system (at minimum in that trial) works in Westeros. Again without saying this was some kind of virtuous act, it is hard to blame Shae for what she did purely because of the threat of physical harm.

[iamthedave]

Exactly my thoughts.

I don't get how people can speak of betrayal in this case. Tyrion was just a client to Shae, nothing more, and as much as he tried to delude himself at times that there was more to their relationship, he knew it well deep down. And even if he didn't, it would be his own fault for lying to himself.

So if you go to whore for sex, than by definition anything and everything she might learn about you is - part of the service - up for purchase by the next person who comes to her for sex? And indeed if they have sex with her, she will publically humiliate you at the next available opportunity and do her best to get you thrown in jail?

What she did went far beyond getting a new employer. Not one thing required her to actively insult him and try to bury him six feet under in court. And if you think it does... you, sir, need to visit better whores.

[BigBellyBen]

Yes, I am saying it is 'excusable' to perjure yourself against someone when you are under a threat of violence and there is no authority you can go to for protection or avenue you can take to avoid it. That entire trial was a kangaroo court, and Shae would likely have been horribly tortured and/or killed if she had not agreed to do what she did. This does not make it a virtuous act (let alone a "change of employment"), but it does make it understandable. Just as Tyrion killing Shae was not a virtuous act (in fact a worse act in the end that what Shae did), but it is meant to be understandable under the circumstances.

To the extent any of Shae's trial testimony was done merely for money or else out of spite, yeah, it was a betrayal of some description. Tywin I agree is a different and more justifiable matter, though I wonder how you can say Tywin's betrayals of his son were not lifethreatening.

At any rate, if you haven't read the Tyrion sample chapter from ADwD...

Tyrion makes clear in retrospect he had to kill Tywin. Tyrion told Tywin he'd shoot him the next time Tywin called Tysha a whore. Tywin did it again, and at that point Tyrion knew he had to follow through on the threat because if he didn't Tywin would assume he was unable or unwilling to do it, and would have taken the crossbow and raised the alarm. It was actually pure self-defense.

But again, you yourself recognize how the legal system (at minimum in that trial) works in Westeros. Again without saying this was some kind of virtuous act, it is hard to blame Shae for what she did purely because of the threat of physical harm.

So by that same logic, Tyrion is also in the right for killing Shae regardless. She was a threat to his physical safety, aside from having used him as a sacrifice in order to profit for herself. Tyrion is only guilty of trusting a whore. You're basically saying that being immoral and saving your neck is acceptable because it saves you. You can't have it both ways and either way you want to spin it, he was justified in killing her. In the first case because he was protecting his own life and liberty and in the second case because she was immoral and deserved to die.

[BigBellyBen]

So if you go to whore for sex, than by definition anything and everything she might learn about you is - part of the service - up for purchase by the next person who comes to her for sex? And indeed if they have sex with her, she will publically humiliate you at the next available opportunity and do her best to get you thrown in jail?

What she did went far beyond getting a new employer. Not one thing required her to actively insult him and try to bury him six feet under in court. And if you think it does... you, sir, need to visit better whores.

Cosign this. Basically people want to give Shae free reign like she was some martyr when all she was doing was saving her own skin and having a jape at Tyrions expense. I think he could have forgiven her if not for her blatantly demeaning him.