The Realm, The Wall, The Night's Watch

[Lucreel]

So, I just finished reading GoT. I've been giving a lot of thinking to all the chapters about the Wall and the Night's Watch (and also discussions related to that topic in other chapters).

When reading, often times author's imply things which you must 'read between the lines'. It seems to me that the general level of neglect of the Night's Watch by the realm indicates that the people of the Realm have essentially forgotten the purpose and importance of the Wall? In fact, other than glimpses and hints we get in the story, such as the prologue chapter, and

When Jon and Sam find the zombies in the forest near the wall, which then attack the Commander's Tower that night,

it seems no on in the realm really takes the wall that seriously. More of a job 'mucking stables' for criminals, something to get them out of the way, more or less.

But, I think that there is a fundamental flaw with the way the Night's Watch was organized:

I understand that the reason for their oath is to make sure that the men and women of the watch (well, pretty much men) have protecting the wall and the realm as their first and only loyalty and duty.

But, it's still fundamentally flawed. As we see in the story, you cannot ever possibly have adequate man-power for such an endeavor with only criminals and bastards. The very oath designed to ensure that the men of the Watch are loyal, also guarantees that no other men would ever come to join the watch. That is, perhaps the oath ensures a much more loyal force, but it also ensures a much smaller force.

If, however, any major threat ever emerges from the north (as it seems apparent is probably about to happen, although never really materializes in the first book), the Realm will likely need virtually ever able bodied man to guard the wall.

Perhaps the original intention was that the Oathsworn would form the Night's Watch, but that the Night's Watch was never intended to be the only force guarding the wall? That is, that the Lord's of the Realm (originally the Kings of the 7 Kingdoms, now the Great Houses) were supposed to send additional forces to supplement the Watch, but that they stopped over the many years since the last great threat from the North, leaving the Watch to struggle on it's own?

The other problem I see with the Night's Watch, and this seems to be a bit glossed over in the book. . .it makes it seem like most of the Watchmen who were formally criminals are won over and become good loyal soldiers in the Night's Watch. I mean, even in the book we see to some extent that's not true - Ser Alliser is a *terrible*, *terrible* master-at-arms. I mean, he does a good job of creating a spirit of unit cohesion among the boys in training, but he seems to do a terrible job of actually teaching them how to fight. Although, perhaps that's the point - maybe the Watch figures that once boys join one of the orders of the Night's Watch, they can learn to be better fighters, but the training of primary importance early on is unit cohesion - that is, a sense of fraternity, or at least enlightened self-interest in helping each other survive).

But, back to my point, which I've wondered a bit away from - it seems like a fighting force made up primarily of traitors, cuthroats, rapers, slavers, and brigands, would not be the most loyal, nor dedicated, fighting force that a nation might hope for. They might be craven, or worse, they might even decide to mutiny en-masse and go attack Winterfell and points South. A fighting force comprised 90% of the outlaws of society seems a foolish thing to create.

Sure, if you can get criminals to join a military service, that can be a great way to try to reform them. But, I should think you'd want a substantial proportion of the rank-and-file, as well as nearly all the leadership, to come from those who are not and never have been criminals, and who are loyal to the Realm, to keep the force as a whole loyal and dedicated.

[Kissiq]

From what I have read, the nights watch is the only useful brotherhood/army in the entire realm. Their duties is for no king but for the humans themselves for they were made to keep out the other creatures, besides wildlings, that are out there.

The problem is that the humans have forgotten that there are other things to worry about other than who is king(that's the greatest underlying theme from book one, two and so far what I am reading in three) and only men from the nights watch know that.

The others, giants etc are but myths to these kings... all they care about is the iron throne so they will invest nothing into the wall, all the able bodied men are armed for battle.

I do not think there is any fault with the way the night's watch was initially set up with these oaths and all that but i think it should have adapted to the new generations a bit better. When all those rules were made I am sure they had enough men dedicating their lives to the wall. Then men had a taste of wtf goes on and what they were up against and what their people needed protection from. I think the night's watch would have been pretty efficient back then.

Notice that all the watch is dealing with now is the wildlings... remember in the prologue the men didnt even suspect what could have happened (i think something has changed over the many many years that now when the realm is so insecure and the winter is coming... this is when the others are popping up). Because the threats are low (or appears to be) no one is about to join the nights watch just like that. why give up so much for a few wildlings? This is where the nights watch should have adjusted things. But instead its has become a type of community service for criminals. and hence so many have run off beyond the wall making more and more wildling over the years.

[aktarian]

What I don't understand is what happens to old members or those who can't perform their duties anymore. Sure, people like Aemon can still be maesters when blind, but what about ordinary watchmen who grow old and weak and can't fight anymore? Or those who are crippled in line of duty? Some might be used for non-combat roles (cooks, working in stables.....) but not all. Night Watch is not mentioned to have institutions for such people. Are they expected to die before reaching old age anyway (keep going on missions till their luck runs out) or is this oversight on Martin's part?

[Ser Arthyr Dracenstein]

When the NightWatch and the Wall was first formed, the threat of the Others was a known and credible threat and so joining the NightWatch was an honourable duty. Plus the Kings would send troops when needed.

But over the centuries and millenia, when there was no sightings or even rumours of the Others being about, the Knights and other professional soldiers sought more gainful employment at home, and the kings would see no purpose in sending troops so far away for no real reason, so the kings and nobles replenished the NightWatch's manpower with criminals and other undesirables.

With desertion punishable with death, these criminals and whatever had no other place to go to.

[zmflavius]

What I don't understand is what happens to old members or those who can't perform their duties anymore. Sure, people like Aemon can still be maesters when blind, but what about ordinary watchmen who grow old and weak and can't fight anymore? Or those who are crippled in line of duty? Some might be used for non-combat roles (cooks, working in stables.....) but not all. Night Watch is not mentioned to have institutions for such people. Are they expected to die before reaching old age anyway (keep going on missions till their luck runs out) or is this oversight on Martin's part?

I think the idea is that they end up just end up staying around, occasionally giving advice, by virtue of their advanced status, but generally don't do anything big anymore. For example:

A Storm of Swords spoilers

There's a really old knight with who used to be one of the most highly respected members of the watch, but eventually suffered from some illness or other (Alzheimer's I think) which meant that he was kind of useless for the Watch afterwards. So he ended up just hanging around.

[Black Sheep]

The Night's Watch is exactly what it is - a watch. At times of threat from the wildlings (or Others) it's upon the Lords of Westeros to support the Night's Watch. Eddard clearly states to Catelyn (at the beginning of aGoT) that with the rising threat of the wildlings he'll soon have to call his bannermen and go beyond the wall to treat with Mance Rayder. Surely at times of peace (unlike the times we see in the novels) the King would send forces to aid the Warden of the North.

As to training Rangers - it's quite unclear in the books. Ser Alliser does seem to be an awful master-at-arms yet I believe the sessions with him are the equivalent of a boot camp. His job is to yell at you and mock you and tire you so you'll become tough enough to serve on the wall, but he doesn't set out to train professional soldiers. There are two explanations - Ser Alliser is all they got, another evidence of the Watch's decline; It's not Ser Alliser's job to train soldiers. He trains not only the rangers, but also the Stewards and the Builders, so maybe he just needs to lay the basics. We don't know much about Rangers and what they do when they don't go beyond the wall (Jon is only a steward) but I guess they have a lot of training with older, much more seasoned officers.

As to your issue with the Watch being made of criminals - that's an issue everyone is aware of. Tyrion Lannister says as much to Jon Snow on their way to the Wall. The Watch consists of nobleman that are too far down on the line of succession or are bastards, that seek glory in serving the ancient brotherhood (Jon Snow, Ser Waymar Royce, Benjen Stark, maybe even Jeor Mormont), or criminals that were forced to take the black. That's just an evidence of the Watch's decline. Most of the criminals learn to live the life on the Wall, it's hard, but for commoners I don't think it's much harder than working at farms or stables or anything like that (except for the cold), but you'll see how they fare with real situations once the great ranging begins.

[Reyne]

Possible spoilers for later books (historical information, nothing plot-wise)

A large amount of the Watch recruits used to come from the incessant wars throughout the Seven Kingdoms. Prisoners would be sent to the wall, or traitors would be sent to the Watch rather than executed. Hence there were large numbers of knights and other 'better' recruits there.

The Watch began declining after the Targaryen conquest, as the wars cut down sharply (though not all. The last crop of such recruits, including Alliser Thorne, came from Robert's Rebellion.) And also, a new factor came up, that many times people didn't bother sending others to the Wall anymore, as we see with Ned.

Also, it's the North's responsibility to assist the Wall when necessary. It's happened historically several times...

Also,

What I don't understand is what happens to old members or those who can't perform their duties anymore. Sure, people like Aemon can still be maesters when blind, but what about ordinary watchmen who grow old and weak and can't fight anymore? Or those who are crippled in line of duty? Some might be used for non-combat roles (cooks, working in stables.....) but not all. Night Watch is not mentioned to have institutions for such people. Are they expected to die before reaching old age anyway (keep going on missions till their luck runs out) or is this oversight on Martin's part?

Answer is in later books....(more obvious than spoiler, but whatever.)

The Night's Watch uses old members for non-combat roles. Fletching arrows, milking goats, gathering firewood, mucking stables, etc.

[HeirophantX]

The rules of primogeniture (oldest son inherits, everyone else gets the scraps), are a factory for younger sons with nothing to do. In Western European history monasteries were stuffed with such men, especially when there weren't Crusades or Norman adventurism to participate in. The Night's Watch and the Citadel are two Westerosi versions of the same, with the Watch's supplemental role as penal colony.

Meanwhile, the Night's Watch is in decline, but the whole realm is in decline. The North is practically uninhabited compared to other parts of the Kingdom, and that most definitely includes The Gift and The New Gift (the lands that are supposed to support the castles on The Wall). Winterfell is falling apart. Moat Cailin is a ruin. King's Landing has several major buildings that burned down or fell apart centuries ago and were never rebuilt. Why the decline? Is this just long-term impact of the Targaryen invasion? Did some places never recover? What else happened?

[HaraktheHirsute]

As Mormont said, the Night's Watch (and, of course, all of Westeros) has forgotten why there's a wall and why they're defending the realm. And as Osha said(I'd like to know her whereabouts, btw), Robb was sending his men the wrong way. If the Seven Kingdoms took the real threat more seriously (which of course starts with believing the threat even exists - most people relegate the Others to the realm of fairy tales), perhaps they'd unite to deal with it.

[di0p]

As mentioned above, the "Higher Ups" in Westeros are just not concerned with The Wall. To them, the White Walkers have not been seen in thousands of years, giving them no concern to the happenings in the North. Consider that even some of our most elder leaders are "young" by modern standards in the sense that they are in their 30's, 40's and 50's. The Others are not even a thought to someone who was born in the last couple hundred years, they are just a story they hear as children.

The realm is far too concerned with greed and snatching up whatever land they can, as well as settling old rivalries. There seems to be a certain level of hubris involved here, with the major families of the 7 Kingdoms feeling superior to anyone on the eastern continent or outside of The Wall.

Even Ned does not want to get involved with Dany and would rather focus on the realm. He barely considers the Wall or the North at all after he becomes Hand, he is too wrapped up in the Game of Thrones to notice.

[haloa]

the fact that criminals take the black, shows how much lack other healthy recruits the night's watch has. they are left with no option but to recruit criminals, they too are forced to take the black , it's just to avoid punishment. and if this stereotype that all the brothers of the night's watch are outlaws(which is more or less true) has got into the heads of the high lords nice and good why would they trust or aid criminals?

[Weasel_Soup]

Although I agree the quality of men in the Nightswatch is in serious decline lets be clear about some of these "criminals". Small folk have very few rights and you can be sure a lot of young men shuttled off to the wall were not exactlly hardened criminals. Many of them probably stole food because they were poor and hungry and many rapers were probably only rapers after the fact when the girl decided it was in her best interests to call what happened rape or they were caught in the act by an angry father or husband.

[LadyDark]

Perhaps the original intention was that the Oathsworn would form the Night's Watch, but that the Night's Watch was never intended to be the only force guarding the wall? That is, that the Lord's of the Realm (originally the Kings of the 7 Kingdoms, now the Great Houses) were supposed to send additional forces to supplement the Watch, but that they stopped over the many years since the last great threat from the North, leaving the Watch to struggle on it's own?

The Seven Kingdoms didn't exist 8000 years ago, only... 300 (more or less)

It's sad to see how most people see the Wall and don't realize that it could be the only difference between being death or alive...

[ICE CROW]

The Seven Kingdoms didn't exist 8000 years ago, only... 300 (more or less)

It's sad to see how most people see the Wall and don't realize that it could be the only difference between being death or alive...

Actually thats not true, the Targaryens, united the 7 Kingdoms under their rule 300 years ago. The 7 Kingdoms have been around for thousands of years, not necessarily 8000 years. But the Kingdom of the North did exist with at least a couple of others 8000 years ago. We know this because Bran the Builder not only was vital in the building of the Wall, but the building of several other castles through out Westeros.

Don't forget they talk about how the old Kings of the North, use to hold off other Kingdoms armies at Moat Cailin. And the last King of the North bent the knee to the Targaryens 300 hundred years ago. Just one of many examples of the existence of the 7 Kingdoms before 300 years ago.

[soob]

The rules of primogeniture (oldest son inherits, everyone else gets the scraps), are a factory for younger sons with nothing to do. In Western European history monasteries were stuffed with such men, especially when there weren't Crusades or Norman adventurism to participate in. The Night's Watch and the Citadel are two Westerosi versions of the same, with the Watch's supplemental role as penal colony.

That's your answer. I mean, the Starks have been kings or wardens or whatever for thousands of years. And yet there's so few of them -- just one family and some cousins or something -- when there should be literally millions. That didn't happen by accident. Don't have to worry about distant relations making a grab for the throne by way of mass murder when the penalty for leaving the wall is death.

Of course the families are so small that the opposite should happen -- anybody could walk along, kill a couple Starks, take a daughter, and own the place. How has that not happened in six thousand years when it happens so easily in the books?

[Princess of the Night]

Just like it was mentioned in GoT a few times, they had quite a long summer. Stories about Wildlings became just stories for children, people didn't believe in them.. They didn't take the Night's watch seriously, and taking criminals there as they had a choice of losing their extremities/die or go to Wall, did not help them much to change their opinion. Just like it was said above, people are more worried about who is sitting on the Throne, than the danger that hides beyond the Wall.

[Winterfell is Burning]

That's your answer. I mean, the Starks have been kings or wardens or whatever for thousands of years. And yet there's so few of them -- just one family and some cousins or something -- when there should be literally millions. That didn't happen by accident. Don't have to worry about distant relations making a grab for the throne by way of mass murder when the penalty for leaving the wall is death.

Of course the families are so small that the opposite should happen -- anybody could walk along, kill a couple Starks, take a daughter, and own the place. How has that not happened in six thousand years when it happens so easily in the books?

ADWD spoilers

Besides the Karstarks (house founded by Karlon Stark, a younger brother of a King that was granted some land, we learn that originally the area of White Harbor was granted to another branch of the Stark family, but after some centuries/milenia, they rebelled unsuccessfuly and tried to take over the North

[Stark@heart]

Everyone has forgotten the purpose of the Wall and the Night's Watch and what better time for the Others to wake up or come back than when the Kingdom is in turmoil and disarray.

[The Black Betha]

people are more worried about who is sitting on the Throne, than the danger that hides beyond the Wall.

Which lord would worry about living-dead when they never saw one? Doesn't seems like a tale? When the war starts in realm, why should they worry about something who seems to be so far from reality? They don't even believe the alchemists and stuff and even the dragons became a legend.

[Arya Nymeria Stark]

Although I agree the quality of men in the Nightswatch is in serious decline lets be clear about some of these "criminals". Small folk have very few rights and you can be sure a lot of young men shuttled off to the wall were not exactlly hardened criminals. Many of them probably stole food because they were poor and hungry and many rapers were probably only rapers after the fact when the girl decided it was in her best interests to call what happened rape or they were caught in the act by an angry father or husband.

Weasel, no offense but you're thinking like a person of the modern-day real world. Yes, I do see where you're coming from, but if a poor person needed to steal food for their family today, chances are they'll need to steal more food tomorrow. Think about the situation from that person's perspective. By joining the Night's Watch, that person is being provided food and shelter, free of charge. While that person would be sworn to the Wall for life, that person gets food, shelter, and some sort of military training. with hopes of making something of their life.