Three treasons you will know...once for blood and once for gold and once for love

[Dementia]

"Three treasons you will know...once for blood and once for gold and once for love."

Maybe I'm being pedantic, but I think the important word here is treason. Not an ordinary act of betrayal but an act to over throw (in this case) the queen/khaleesi. Therefore, I would say the first was Mizzi's treason for blood. She wanted Drogo's blood (and Rhaego) because of the deaths they caused. The second would be Jorah for gold. He was implicit in the assassination attempt (even if he changed his mind at the last second).

I don't think we've seen the third yet. I don't even have any real idea who it could be.

[Faranya]

I think the only one that would have happened so far is MMD and blood.

Also, I think Dany (and many readers) are getting the betrayal for love wrong. My guess it will not be some who she is in a romance with. It will be someone she trusts that loves another person (or possibly a group).

What I mean is let's say it is Tyrion for example:

Tyrion and Dany will not have a romantic relationship.

Tyrion will somehow discover he can reunite with Tasha if he betrays Dany. So, he does.

((I am not saying it will be Tyrion. I'm just using this as an example.))

That is quite possible.

Betrayal for love:

On the day before the crucial, all-or-nothing battle for Westeros, Rhaegal and Viserion elope to go make little hatchlings and leave Dany short two dragons. Drogon is killed in the battle, and Dany loses.

[kingkiller]

Could be that she wasn't betrayed even once yet. "Three treasons WILL you know". In the future tense.

my thoughts exactly.. jorah's "betrayal" happened before the prophecy. nor was he in love with her at the time of his betraying, nor did he recieve any gold or land or anything else.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

my thoughts exactly.. jorah's "betrayal" happened before the prophecy. nor was he in love with her at the time of his betraying, nor did he recieve any gold or land or anything else.

He did receive gold, actually. He says "I took the spider's gold..." during his confession.

[Swordswench]

Maybe it's literal, and betrayed for gold has to do with the Golden Company?

[Which Tyler]

I can't see MMD's act as treason.

Treason is a betrayal of one of your own.

IRL a Frenchman assassinating an English monarch would be assassination, not treason. MMD is neither Dothraki, nor Targaryen (nor Westerosi) and she owes no loyalty to Dany, so an assassination attempt on Dany or Drogo, would not be treasonous.

[Dementia]

I can't see MMD's act as treason.

Treason is a betrayal of one of your own.

IRL a Frenchman assassinating an English monarch would be assassination, not treason. MMD is neither Dothraki, nor Targaryen (nor Westerosi) and she owes no loyalty to Dany, so an assassination attempt on Dany or Drogo, would not be treasonous.

Ooooh...excellent point! It would be a weak argument, but you could argue that she became Dothraki when Dany saved her...that she was conquered.

[King_In_The_North]

Good point was raised. Also, Jorah can't be one of the traitors since, when he first came into the service of the Targaryens, he was just spying on them. Only later was his allegiance ot them. So he was first spying on the Targaryen siblings, and only then was he their man. That means he committed no treason.

[seppuku]

Jorah is a red herring. He wasn't any of the betrayals.

[Faranya]

Good point was raised. Also, Jorah can't be one of the traitors since, when he first came into the service of the Targaryens, he was just spying on them. Only later was his allegiance ot them. So he was first spying on the Targaryen siblings, and only then was he their man. That means he committed no treason.

He swore to be their man very early on in the story.

He spied on them until Dany made it to Qarth.

He was betraying them essentially the entire time from Drogo's wedding to Qarth. How is that not treason?

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

I can't see MMD's act as treason.

Treason is a betrayal of one of your own.

IRL a Frenchman assassinating an English monarch would be assassination, not treason. MMD is neither Dothraki, nor Targaryen (nor Westerosi) and she owes no loyalty to Dany, so an assassination attempt on Dany or Drogo, would not be treasonous.

Possibly. It depends on how you want to consider betrayal. Your way is certainly one way.

But it can be considered that Dany's viewpoint is what counts. If the person you trusted turned out to be your assassin, you'd still be "betrayed."

[Peter Woolshirt]

The treason for gold will be Illyrio Mopatis.

This is a man of whom it has been often said that he would sell his mother for gold. Casterly Rock has lots of gold.

It is known.

[Yeade]

Regarding the OP, while I think it an intriguing idea to parallel Dany's House of the Undying prophecies to Jon's experiences given the other similarities between the two characters, I wouldn't assume he'd receive the same triplets. Seems to me Dany's visions are shaped by the two forces that define her life--her Targaryen heritage and probable status as Azor Ahai Reborn. These don't necessarily apply to Jon, various fan theories notwithstanding, because his supposed ignorance of both means neither drives his actions.

What, then, can be used as a pattern for Jon's hypothetical foretelling? Look no further than the Night's Watch vows:

Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death.

I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory.

I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.

Now, being sworn to the Night's Watch surely has as much impact on Jon as Dany being the last known Targaryen and likely AAR has on her. There's even a lilting rhythm to the NW oath that makes it a nice match, in my mind, to the Undying's words, and I'd always believed Jon's vows are written to be challenged and quite possibly broken. The section bolded above is of the most interest, IMO.

Perhaps the easiest part to interpret is "take no wife" and "father no children." If I were playing the role of the Undying for Jon, I'd say there will be three women in his life with pretty much exactly the same influence on him as Dany's three mounts on her (to bed, to dread, to love). Ygritte is akin to Drogo in that they're both wildlings of an alien culture who serve as their respective partners first sexual experience and later die as an indirect consequence of their lovers' actions. Euron and Melisandre are often named as the next candidates for terrorizing, respectively, Dany and Jon in the bedroom. You need not squint too hard to see how these two scary sorcerous types are similar. Finally, Jon and Dany may come to love each other, tying both triplets neatly together.

My second grouping would be "hold no lands" and "wear no crowns." Note this applies exclusively to Jon; Dany doesn't have to face any such dilemmas. Stannis's offer of Winterfell is the first in this triplet, and I figure there are two more crowns coming to Jon in the form of Robb's will and R+L=J. I like the sense of escalation in this string of three, with the extent of the land held growing ever wider alongside the potential political and military complications. Stannis's proposal has a lot of undesirable conditions, the most serious of which is probably renouncing the old gods, but I imagine each of Jon's next two crowns will be more attractive than the previous. (Yes, I'm following the speculation that R+L=J involves a legitimate marriage that can somehow be proven.) Lastly, Jon's hypothetical prophetic triplet can again be connected to Dany by the last thread.

Which leaves "win no glory." I admit I'm kind of at a loss here. Jon's attempt to desert in order to join Robb in his war against the Lannisters may count. Assuming glory won within the NW doesn't count, that whole business with undead Othor, Jon's stint as a spy among the wildlings, and his ASOS defense of the Wall plus election as Lord Commander can all be ruled out. Honestly, I have no guesses whatsoever about the second in this triplet, but I do have a plausible scenario for the last--an opportunity, maybe offered by Dany personally, to ride a dragon. That certainly ought to be sufficiently glorifying, lol.

Just as some feel Dany may be done in by her last treason, I don't think Jon's getting past all these possible chances at love, crowns, and glory without breaking, or at least severely bending, his NW oath. The third option in each triplet representing the greatest temptation, of course. (Funny how all my final trials for Jon have something to do with Dany... I wonder if the reverse is true.) What's more, Dany has many other visions in the House of the Undying besides the (in)famous three fires, three mounts, and three treasons. She is born of three deaths (Viserys, Rhaego, Rheagar) and will slay three lies (Stannis, mummer's dragon, stone beast of shadow fire). Along with "regular" scenes from her past and future. This is simply free license to make crazy stuff up with regards to Jon, IMO. Well, in addition to what I've already done. ^_^

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[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

He swore to be their man very early on in the story.

He spied on them until Dany made it to Qarth.

He was betraying them essentially the entire time from Drogo's wedding to Qarth. How is that not treason?

Close.

Jorah sent one message from Qarth to Varys, and it's implied this was a message saying that he wasn't going to be sending anymore messages.

We don't really know when Jorah's last "real" report was. I think it likely it was one that preceeded the wineseller assassination attempt which was months before Drogo died. I am certain that by the time he reswore himself to Dany right before she walked into the pyre he wasn't doing anymore spying.

Of course he lied about his intentions early on when he swore his sword to Viserys and you could consider it a kind of treason... but more to Viserys than Daenerys.

[Boheme]

Regarding the OP, while I think it an intriguing idea to parallel Dany's House of the Undying prophecies to Jon's experiences given the other similarities between the two characters, I wouldn't assume he'd receive the same triplets. Seems to me Dany's visions are shaped by the two forces that define her life--her Targaryen heritage and probable status as Azor Ahai Reborn. These don't necessarily apply to Jon, various fan theories notwithstanding, because his supposed ignorance of both means neither drives his actions.

What, then, can be used as a pattern for Jon's hypothetical foretelling? Look no further than the Night's Watch vows:

Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death.

I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory.

I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.

Now, being sworn to the Night's Watch surely has as much impact on Jon as Dany being the last known Targaryen and likely AAR has on her. There's even a lilting rhythm to the NW oath that makes it a nice match, in my mind, to the Undying's words, and I'd always believed Jon's vows are written to be challenged and quite possibly broken. The section bolded above is of the most interest, IMO.

Perhaps the easiest part to interpret is "take no wife" and "father no children." If I were playing the role of the Undying for Jon, I'd say there will be three women in his life with pretty much exactly the same influence on him as Dany's three mounts on her (to bed, to dread, to love). Ygritte is akin to Drogo in that they're both wildlings of an alien culture who serve as their respective partners first sexual experience and later die as an indirect consequence of their lovers' actions. Euron and Melisandre are often named as the next candidates for terrorizing, respectively, Dany and Jon in the bedroom. You need not squint too hard to see how these two scary sorcerous types are similar. Finally, Jon and Dany may come to love each other, tying both triplets neatly together.

My second grouping would be "hold no lands" and "wear no crowns." Note this applies exclusively to Jon; Dany doesn't have to face any such dilemmas. Stannis's offer of Winterfell is the first in this triplet, and I figure there are two more crowns coming to Jon in the form of Robb's will and R+L=J. I like the sense of escalation in this string of three, with the extent of the land held growing ever wider alongside the potential political and military complications. Stannis's proposal has a lot of undesirable conditions, the most serious of which is probably renouncing the old gods, but I imagine each of Jon's next two crowns will be more attractive than the previous. (Yes, I'm following the speculation that R+L=J involves a legitimate marriage that can somehow be proven.) Lastly, Jon's hypothetical prophetic triplet can again be connected to Dany by the last thread.

Which leaves "win no glory." I admit I'm kind of at a loss here. Jon's attempt to desert in order to join Robb in his war against the Lannisters may count. Assuming glory won within the NW doesn't count, that whole business with undead Othor, Jon's stint as a spy among the wildlings, and his ASOS defense of the Wall plus election as Lord Commander can all be ruled out. Honestly, I have no guesses whatsoever about the second in this triplet, but I do have a plausible scenario for the last--an opportunity, maybe offered by Dany personally, to ride a dragon. That certainly ought to be sufficiently glorifying, lol.

Just as some feel Dany may be done in by her last treason, I don't think Jon's getting past all these possible chances at love, crowns, and glory without breaking, or at least severely bending, his NW oath. The third option in each triplet representing the greatest temptation, of course. (Funny how all my final trials for Jon have something to do with Dany... I wonder if the reverse is true.) What's more, Dany has many other visions in the House of the Undying besides the (in)famous three fires, three mounts, and three treasons. She is born of three deaths (Viserys, Rhaego, Rheagar) and will slay three lies (Stannis, mummer's dragon, stone beast of shadow fire). Along with "regular" scenes from her past and future. This is simply free license to make crazy stuff up with regards to Jon, IMO. Well, in addition to what I've already done. ^_^

What if the wall comes down? Does Jon still have an oath to keep in that case?

[yougotrealugly]

Excellent catch Snagra. This helps me confirm my belief that its not about who will betray Dany its about how or what Dany will betray. She will have a choice to be honorable or treasonous "once for blood and once for gold and once for love."

I never figured MMD and Jorah where the betrayals.

[Silverin]

I am in the camp that thinks Jorah wasnt the betrayal for gold.

The consequences for that betrayel seems ridicoulusly small compared to a lot of betrayal happening over at Westeros.

But I think an other question is wether Dany will survive the third one.

It is just this number seems a little low to me.

[Dementia]

What if the wall comes down? Does Jon still have an oath to keep in that case?

Yep. "It shall not end until my death."

[Yeade]

Welcome to the forums, Boheme! As for your question:

Does Jon still have an oath to keep [if the Wall falls]?

I'd argue yes, Jon certainly does still have a sworn obligation to the Night's Watch regardless of the condition of the Wall. Please note that the NW oath is to the organization, not the Wall, and specifically says that your watch "shall not end until [your] death." (As Dementia also notes. I'm too slow!) So, unless Jon dies or the NW is utterly destroyed as an institution, there's no release for Jon from his vows that doesn't involve oathbreaking on his part.

As I understand it, the NW's formed during the last Long Night, some 8,000 years prior, and predates the existence of the Wall. I wouldn't be surprised to find that Brandon the Builder is the first Lord Commander of the NW, actually. Besides, assuming dramatic imperative wins the day and the Wall loses whatever magical protection it currently has that keeps the Others and their undead minions at bay while possibly maintaining the somewhat physically implausible dimensions of the Wall, resulting in a literal collapse, the NW will become even more crucial as the only fighting force in the Seven Kingdoms with appreciable experience warring against ice zombies. I, for one, expect Jon to be stuck leading a mishmash army of wildlings, northmen, ironborn, and Stannis's remaining men in a stubborn, desperate retreat before the much anticipated invasion of the Others with the NW, by then stripped of all cowards and other undesirables to become a lean, mean fighting machine, serving as his group commanders. Which, IMO, would be poetic justice given how neglected and spat upon the NW has been by the entire realm. Or, you know, Jon may be violently ousted from his position in the NW and end ADWD dying in a ditch somewhere, lol.

Whatever happens, Jon being bound by his NW vows doesn't preclude him bending or breaking those words he swore. He's already had the two lessons he needs to make the "right" decisions in this regard, IMO, from Maester Aemon and Qhorin Halfhand. One common interpretation of Aemon's advice to Jon is "stay true to your vows always," but I disagree. I think Aemon simply says a decision must be made and you must live with the consequences. Qhorin's point of necessity over honor, the good of the realm over personal satisfaction, is possibly even more instructive so far as Jon's future goes.

Therefore, I figure Jon's due for a great deal of very creative and loose interpretation of his vows, e.g. breaking the spirit of the oath while holding to the letter and vice versa, followed by becoming, unquestionably by any standard, an oathbreaker. However, I also believe, when that time comes, Jon will have realized that some vows are more important than others and, ultimately, you are what you make of yourself, not what others make of you. A heroic character with that conviction can, IMO, break any promise necessary, even if it means being forever reviled or losing his head, for a higher and just cause. The hardest task is determining where the "right" lies.

Personally, I'd be extremely disappointed if GRRM allows Jon to weasel out of his pesky vows with a plot device as obvious and easy as the technicality of a 700-foot, 8,000-year-old giant wall of ice being catastrophically destroyed. That's just not enough to please me! :laugh:

ETA:

Another thought occurs to me as to why, supposing my hypothetical House of the Undying style prophecy for Jon proves true, the last in each of the triplets will be the most difficult to face: Jon's desires may finally and completely align with what he perceives to be his duty to the NW and/or best for the realm.

Members of these forums sometimes strike me as, er, deathly allergic to even the slightest hint of a happy(ish) ending for either Jon or Dany, but I think both are going to need something really selfishly rewarding to yearn for, whether they're alive to appreciate such when ASOIAF finishes or not. Epic heroes are still human despite however many epic deeds; most tire of constantly saving everybody else if there isn't any hope for a little personal gratification. For instance, hope that he may yet win Arwen's hand against all odds is probably the one thought that keeps Aragorn going when he's roaming the wilds and fighting other people's wars without being able to claim his name or keep a home for some sixty years prior to FOTR.

Yeah, I want ADWD and perhaps the first half of TWOW to push Jon and Dany hard, to leave both in despair of ever having anything in life but cold, ugly duty. Then I want to see how painful happiness is because I think, as terrible as the terrible acts in ASOIAF are, only emotions like hope and faith and love, when true and deep, can cut you to the bone, crueler than any evil. Only after this comes to pass would I be content in Jon and/or Dany dying.

And now I return you to your regularly scheduled thread. :blush:

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[Seen]

Could it be possible that Dany is not the betrayed, but the betrayer? Going by the prophecy, either interpretation could be true. "Three treasons you will know."

If we consider that we're reading Martin here, it's possible that he's fooling everyone (readers and Dany alike) into thinking she'll be betrayed, but ending up the opposite way.

The treason for love would then be Khal Drogo, who she murdered, no matter how you look at it. Indirectly by allowing Mirri to treat his wounds, but more directly by smothering him with a pillow. Killing a Khal, that would count as treason, right?

It is not too difficult to think of Dany murdering her new husband Hizdahr at some point. Killing a king, that'll be treason too. Or perhaps you could bend it in such way that she's already betrayed Ser Jorah or Viserys (gold?), but that seems a bit too weak for me.

I'm not too sure if this will be what we'll see in the last few books, it still feels a bit far-fetched to me. But it's definitely a possibility, and one that would fit in Martin's style too.