[ADWD Dany last chapter spoilers] Daenerys

[Herr Fick]

This gets tiresome. Whether the plot in and around Meereen progressed to one's satisfaction has nothing to do with whether it was difficult to write.

Yes, story-wise the situation was not yet resolved at the end, but the set-up is finished, the characters are where they are supposed to be. And I'm beginning to believe that Martin's successful set-up is one of the reasons why many readers are angry about the lack of resolution (in form of a big battle, betrayal or whatever). While reading the last chapters of A Dance with Dragons, it certainly feels like, at last, Martin has gotten his pieces in place. It took him long enough. And then he stops before the BIG payoff.

Whatever, in the "Meereenese Knot" thread, Kalbear posted the following which pretty much is my own opinion, too:

Considering that Barristan is a key part of how he 'solved' the knot, I think you couldn't be more wrong, Sega AM2. You're thinking of the knot as some huge confluence of events or some big plot point like the Red Wedding; it simply could be something like 'how to get Dany to realize her position is at Westeros without betraying her entire character'.

I mean, Tyrion isn't going to be able to convince her. Neither is Victarion. Neither is Quentyn. Duty isn't going to make her budge; her duty is to the slaves and her army, not some far-off land. No, what she needs to realize first and foremost is that she is not a ruler, she is a conqueror. But how to do that?

In this case, GRRM changed things dramatically. Part of that meant that Dany's chapters dragged, as timelines were important. But the chapter where she mounts Drogon was radically changed from the original reading. The wedding, the solution to the harpies - that all got added more recently. That's the answer to the knot.

Add to this, that the convergence on Meereen was, in fact, a "huge confluence" - if not of dramatic events then of several characters who had to arrive in the correct order to make Daenerys' crisis and subsequent catharsis believable. Most of these characters were already woven into the timeline set by A Storm of Swords and A Feast for Crows. Furthermore, Martin had to abandon the five-year-gap, which worked well for most the characters in the latter novel but was bound to be a major issue with Daenerys in A Dance with Dragons.

[TrackerNeil]

I don't quite understand all this talk of Tyrion "teaching" Dany how to rule. In Westeros, Tyrion was an effective Hand, yes, but he also had the power of Casterly Rock behind him. Everyone knew (or believed, anyway), that policies instituted by Tyrion were coming from Tywin, a guy nobody wanted to cross. In addition, Tyrion was a lifelong resident of Westeros, deeply familiar with its ways and its people.

In Meereen, Tyrion would have neither wealth nor a fearsome lord to back him up; he'd have only the support of Daenerys, whom the Harpy's Sons were willing to defy, if only secretly. He knows the language only to an extent, and is utterly unfamiliar with the power brokers, the customs, and the laws. Sure, he's clever and perceptive, but I don't think that would have been enough to turn things around. In Westeros he would be a valuable resource; in Meereen, he was just a noseless dwarf on the run from the Iron Throne.

[Herr Fick]

I don't quite understand all this talk of Tyrion "teaching" Dany how to rule. In Westeros, Tyrion was an effective Hand, yes, but he also had the power of Casterly Rock behind him. Everyone knew (or believed, anyway), that policies instituted by Tyrion were coming from Tywin, a guy nobody wanted to cross. In addition, Tyrion was a lifelong resident of Westeros, deeply familiar with its ways and its people.

In Meereen, Tyrion would have neither wealth nor a fearsome lord to back him up; he'd have only the support of Daenerys, whom the Harpy's Sons were willing to defy, if only secretly. He knows the language only to an extent, and is utterly unfamiliar with the power brokers, the customs, and the laws. Sure, he's clever and perceptive, but I don't think that would have been enough to turn things around. In Westeros he would be a valuable resource; in Meereen, he was just a noseless dwarf on the run from the Iron Throne.

I agree.

The whole master-student-relationship that some seem to imagine between Tyrion and Daenerys looks like a romantic fantasy to me. He is a deposed and powerless Lannister who murdered his father. He will have a hard time with Daenerys, at least for as long as she stays in Meereen. In Westeros, Tyrion might yet prove to be her second-greatest asset.

[JayDubya]

Dany has western morals, and they don't work well in eastern cities. This is a serious problem for her. We all knew she needed to go to Westeros, but she needed to "know" that, and IMO, the best way to learn is, alas, to learn from your failures.

At the end of aDWD, she "knows" that she will never be a good ruler for Meereen, that her morals are incompatible with the people she rules. It is frustrating that it took six billion POV chapters for that point to sink in, but it was a lesson that she never would have learned if Meereen had submitted to her, and let her rule with only minor challenges for 5 years.

Like moths to flame, everyone is converging on her, because with her dragons, she is power incarnate. Perhaps the failures of Meereen will teach her how to manage those moths, and keep them from disrupting her flame.

[Bobbity]

I was a litttle disappointed by the Dany chapters in ADWD, to be honest. I was hoping that her time in Meereen would allow he to mature, learn some humility and some wisdom. I had hoped to see most of her suitors arrive, and fight over her.

Unfortunately, the focus was on Meereen, and tetroubles that they faced. However interesting they might have been, they'll be totally inconsequential once Dany departs Essos. Only one of her suitors arrived, she's still naive and a bit of an idiot, and we barely saw the dragons.

I loved the book, but almost all of Dany's chapters left me feeling a little cheated. On top of all that, we only got a single story out of Ser Selmy. Shame. :P

[Logen Ninefingers]

I loved the book, but almost all of Dany's chapters left me feeling a little cheated. On top of all that, we only got a single story out of Ser Selmy. Shame. :P

This. More than anything I find it hard to believe that over this extensive period of time Dany still hasn't used Selmy as a resource on Westeros or that he hasn't volunteered the information that she really should know by now. This is something on which I'm finding it very hard to suspend my disbelief.

[Ser Pistus]

The whole master-student-relationship that some seem to imagine between Tyrion and Daenerys looks like a romantic fantasy to me. He is a deposed and powerless Lannister who murdered his father. He will have a hard time with Daenerys, at least for as long as she stays in Meereen. In Westeros, Tyrion might yet prove to be her second-greatest asset.

Tyrion knows as much as any maester, is familiar with Westeros politics and very clever. If a queen cannot find the use of him, she is a fool.

[Herr Fick]

Tyrion knows as much as any maester, is familiar with Westeros politics and very clever. If a queen cannot find the use of him, she is a fool.

Yes. He would be of good use in Westeros. That's what I wrote, is it not? The point is, that in Meereen he is just another stranger in a strage land. Aside from his affiliation with Brown Ben Plumm, his knowledge as regards dragons is the only interesting asset he has. How is he supposed to secure her city or her rule? And how should a man who murdered his father and his king (!) be able to persuade Daenerys Targaryen, who loves freedom and despises treachery, of the error of her ways? Exactly! It's a ridiculous image.

[garth]

Yes. He would be of good use in Westeros. That's what I wrote, is it not? The point is, that in Meereen he is just another stranger in a strage land. Aside from his affiliation with Brown Ben Plumm, his knowledge as regards dragons is the only interesting asset he has. How is he supposed to secure her city or her rule? And how should a man who murdered his father and his king (!) be able to persuade Daenerys Targaryen, who loves freedom and despises treachery, of the error of her ways? Exactly! It's a ridiculous image.

Tyrion is good at reading political currents and maneuvering people. And, at putting in place good key people to run things, which he did well in kings landing. And, he is a good planner, seeing many moves ahead. Dany sorely needs that (or to listen to the shavepate). I agree that it is ridiculous that dany would accept him, especially if he comes with 3 time traitor brown ben plumm..., but he would be useful,

[Herr Fick]

Tyrion is good at reading political currents and maneuvering people. And, at putting in place good key people to run things, which he did well in kings landing. And, he is a good planner, seeing many moves ahead. Dany sorely needs that (or to listen to the shavepate). I agree that it is ridiculous that dany would accept him, especially if he comes with 3 time traitor brown ben plumm..., but he would be useful,

I would agree. But all those skills you list are far more useful when Tyrion actually stands on familiar ground (such as King's Landing). In Meereen he isn't familiar with anybody outside Daenerys' court, knows nothing about the social mores and traditions, the relationships between families or individuals. Sure, he could learn a lot of things - their language, to begin with. But it would take time - time that Martin doesn't have anymore since he changed his plans about the five-year-gap.

[sedeyus]

Yes. He would be of good use in Westeros. That's what I wrote, is it not? The point is, that in Meereen he is just another stranger in a strage land. Aside from his affiliation with Brown Ben Plumm, his knowledge as regards dragons is the only interesting asset he has. How is he supposed to secure her city or her rule? And how should a man who murdered his father and his king (!) be able to persuade Daenerys Targaryen, who loves freedom and despises treachery, of the error of her ways? Exactly! It's a ridiculous image.

I thought Brown Ben Plum was a good example of why Tyrion would be a good resource even in Meereen. There was a line, can't remember it exactly, where Tyrion says of Brown Ben, "He has a nice smile but his eyes were cold." Compare that to Dany who immediately liked and trusted Brown Ben, and liked him even more when her dragons also liked Brown Ben. Tyrion's always had one of the better bullshit meters of the series. He sniffed out Littlefinger as dangerous while everyone else, even Tywin, discounted him because of his low birth. So even in a foreign environment, I think Tyrion has a good handle on people's natures and he's the exact type of counsel that Dany needs.

[Eaglewood]

Another thing I didn't like about Dany's chapters was how broadly Hizdhar was sketched. Compare him to Daario, about whom we got hell of a lot of description. Daario really jumps off the page, like him or loathe him.

Dany's actual husband gets pretty short shrift by comparison. He gets a couple of conversations, that's it. I don't feel like I know him at all, so I have no idea whether he was the poisoner or not, and what's more I don't care.

He was just written so vaguely. I don't think GRRM had much interest in him, really. And I think we should have gotten to know him better. He is her husband, after all.

Sure, he'll probably be killed off pretty soon...but he mightn't be. And he's a total mystery to me. That irritated me even as I was reading.

Agree, agree, agree. The characters there were so badly sketched and defined that it is no wonder people have a hard time caring about the place, especially considering there is already a world we love with resolved issues back in Westeros.

[TrackerNeil]

I thought Brown Ben Plum was a good example of why Tyrion would be a good resource even in Meereen. There was a line, can't remember it exactly, where Tyrion says of Brown Ben, "He has a nice smile but his eyes were cold." Compare that to Dany who immediately liked and trusted Brown Ben, and liked him even more when her dragons also liked Brown Ben. Tyrion's always had one of the better bullshit meters of the series. He sniffed out Littlefinger as dangerous while everyone else, even Tywin, discounted him because of his low birth. So even in a foreign environment, I think Tyrion has a good handle on people's natures and he's the exact type of counsel that Dany needs.

Tyrion demonstrates this clarity of perception when he's talking to Young Griff about Daenerys. He tells Griff Jr. that Dany is a "rescuer", and predicts that, should Griff land in Westeros and raise hell, Dany will rush to his aid. I think that's a fairly shrewd insight, particularly given that Tyrion has never met Dany.

[Seerow]

I don't know if it's a miscarriage but at least one part of the Maz Duur's prophecy has come true ("the sun rising in the west and setting in the east" seems to refer to Quentyn), maybe the other parts came true when I wasn't paying attention and she can now have a kid?

So is Drogo coming back too? Cause it wasn't when the sun rises in the west and sets in the east she can have another kid. It's when the sun rises in the west and sets in the east, and she has another kid, Drogo will be back again and all that he once was.

[Ygritte]

So is Drogo coming back too? Cause it wasn't when the sun rises in the west and sets in the east she can have another kid. It's when the sun rises in the west and sets in the east, and she has another kid, Drogo will be back again and all that he once was.

My theory is that her kid by Daario would have been Drogo reborn if he hadn't been miscarried, but that if she has another, it won't be Drogo. She's missed that boat now.

[cdawnb]

Could she be miscarrying--could they be an abortifacient? And if so, would that be evidence for or against her barrenness? (Not sure if her infertility consists of not conceiving or of not being able to carry to term.)

The first thing I thought of is that she was having a miscarriage. Even though it sounds like the two symptoms (the diarrhea and the blood) are connected, I don't think they are. What I got out of it when I read it is that the berries made her stomach cramp and the huge pain/blood she had was actually a miscarriage.

[Vikingkingq]

In terms of what Tyrion is up to:

- he's now a member of the Second Sons.

- he's promised the Second Sons a LOT of money.

- he's said to Jorah:

“The Second Sons are on the losing side. They need to turn their cloaks again and do it now.” He grinned. “Leave that to me.”

Tyrion's going to organize the mercenary groups to turn on the Yunkai in the upcoming raising of the siege. That way, he can present himself to Dany with bargaining chips and credit earned on his side instead of as a vagabond.

[moffy]

Just finished reading!

Did not enjoy the Dany chapters. Found all the Ghiscari exceedingly tiresome and was just waiting for Galazza Galare to sell her out. Detest the Dothraki and am really annoyed that the ending indicates we will have to hear more of that tiresome bunch.

I thought it was a miscarriage. Food poisoning can cause it if sufficiently severe (two years ago there was a mass food poisoning case here and one of the victims lost her baby).

On that vein, I was almost expecting the Dothraki scout she evaded to find her and she would look upon his face and yell, Drogo! Then I rememberer she had to bear a living child first :rolleyes:

Edited to add: I am now backing Young Griff for the throne.

[cteresa]

My theory is that her kid by Daario would have been Drogo reborn if he hadn't been miscarried, but that if she has another, it won't be Drogo. She's missed that boat now.

But the problem with that is her kid with Daario could not be the prince with bronze skin and silver hair on her vision at the house of the undying.

[KhalRhaego]

Am I the only one who believes that Rhaego isn't really dead? I think that Mirri Maz Durr gave the baby to one of the Khals that left while Dany was in her two week coma. Enough other blood was spilled (like Drogo's blood rider that was killed by Jorah) for her blood magic.