[AdwD Spoilers] "Septa" Lemore

[Selmy]

Perhaps going about this backwards?

If Lemore is Ashara, what does that potentially add to the story? I mean, it seems like when people are hiding their identities it usually ends up being some bigger reveal that's going to have larger ramifications throughout out the story. (Aegon, Sansa, etc)

What does Ashara suddenly showing up matter?

[Skegg]

Perhaps going about this backwards?

If Lemore is Ashara, what does that potentially add to the story? I mean, it seems like when people are hiding their identities it usually ends up being some bigger reveal that's going to have larger ramifications throughout out the story. (Aegon, Sansa, etc)

What does Ashara suddenly showing up matter?

I'm not at all convinced that Lemore is Ashara, but I did find it odd that Barristan's POV mentioned that he had the hots for Ashara. Why bother bringing that up at this point?

Edit: Yes, I realize he was reminiscing about how he could have changed the course of history by winning the tourney.

[cteresa]

she is Tyene´s mother, nevermind hair color.

Come on, she is totally Oberyn´s type. She had a child once. She is real septa, but with very unconventional thoughts. If you ever wanted to know how that story of Oberyn and the septa was, and do not believe he raped her (pfh), well, we get a glimpse. An Easter egg, probably.

[Leuf]

For those suggesting that Young Griff is Lemore's child: I think I covered that in the initial post and why I don't think it can be. If she were the mother of YG, Griff would not treat her as a hireling. She would have some say in the decision-making process. The ONLY way I'd consider this is if you postulate that Griff doesn't know Lemore is the mom.

I don't think Connington would be told Aegon was a fake, but even if he was and Lemore is just some random Dornish lady from a minor house who had a bastard that looks like a Targ that Varys found, Connington wouldn't have a whole lot of respect for her. Also though Varys may have made a deal with her that she still gets to raise her child and be close to him even though he doesn't know who she is, Varys isn't going to want any loose ends of people knowing the truth once they are out of hiding. Connington might very well have orders to make sure Lemore has an accident before things go too much further. If he knows he has to kill her later he's not going to treat her like an equal. He would also know that his usefulness to Varys and Illyrio will be at an end once Aegon is on the throne, which puts an interesting spin on his medical condition.

[Jem]

The main reason I think she is Ashara is simply because it fits with my preconceived ideas of what happened.

When I first heard that Ashara Dayne jumped into the sea and her body was never found, I thought: oh no she di'nt. When we were told for the millionth time that baby Aegon had his brains smashed against a wall, I thought: oh no he di'nt.

For ages I have thought that Ashara took Aegon into exile. When I first heard that ADWD would have a POV called Griff and with him he had a teenaged lad, I thought: there's baby Aegon, I wonder where Ashara is? As soon as I saw Septa Lemore, I thought: there she is!

Of course I could be bending the evidence to fit the theory, but to me it feels like the pieces are falling into the right places.

[Saturn Girl]

I like the idea that Lemore is actually Ashara. Perhaps the reason she agreed to play Septa for Young Griff is because she was grieving for her own stillborn child, and he brought out her maternal instincts. Running away with JC and the baby gave her the opportunity to reinvent herself and start over after losing her child and presumably her lover...either Brandon who died, or Ned who went back to his wife.

[mistrad]

Frankly, we don't have enough information about any of the participants.

That said...my guess is Ashara until proven otherwise. She is the most conspicuous candidate that would fit, and still make sense.

[Eddard Stark]

GRRM could have brought up Selmy's musings to merely clarify that Ashara's baby was stillborn (i.e. wasn't Jon Snow) or merely for background, or it could be false information. I think trying to infer the truth based on author intent is a game fraught with peril. Not all of the prose is intended to be significant to the plot, and some is meant to create a compelling story that is vivid in the reader's mind.

I think Selmy described her hair as 'dark'. That might be black, rather than brown...not totally clear.

Honestly, Tyrion's description doesn't seem to jive with Selmy's recollections (and the general description) of Ashara as beautiful. She also seems too old as someone else mentioned - by all accounts, she was probably about Ned's age, so mid-30's, not 'past 40'. There was also no mention of violet eyes, as noted before.

Honestly, the evidence that Lemore is Ashara Dayne is pretty slim and boils down to:

1. Lemore is +/-10 years of the right age

2. Selmy remembers Ashara Dayne had a stillborn child (which or may not be true)

3. Lemore has stretch marks, suggesting at least one child

4. Lemore was trusted by Magister Illyrio, Griff and Varys

5. Griff thinks of her as 'Lady' Lemore, suggesting she is likely noble born

Perhaps we'll find out more in some of George's discussions at signings, or through other SSMs...but I doubt we'll know the truth till the next book or the one thereafter.

[AryaHorseface]

My biggest problem with the Ashara Dayne theory is Tyrion's description of her being a handsome woman but not beautiful. I'm not sure exactly how old Ashara would be but I'm thinking right around 40. If she really was as beautiful as Barristan and others describe her as having been then she would still be beautiful even at 40 -- or at the very least Tyrion would have seen echoes of how beautiful she was when she was young.

I had never considered it before, but I like the theory that she's Tyene Sand's mother. Her hair could be died brown (why not, YG's hair is died) or have darkened with age (common with blondes).

[The Kingbreaker]

Daenerys is going to be betrayed by Ser Barristan for Lemore (Ashara Dayne). The treason for love.

[unJon]

N + A = YG. Love it! He's the mummer's dragon. His eyes move between blue and purple depending on the light because the Stark blue eyes are watering out the purple.

[Pipsmom]

Daenerys is going to be betrayed by Ser Barristan for Lemore (Ashara Dayne). The treason for love.

This is your first post? Amazing. I spent hours last night contemplating the theory how Danys third betrayal for love would not be a love of hers as conventional thinking goes, but stemming from Barristan's long-harbored and unrequited love for Ashara. I assume Dany and Barriston will get back to Westeros (sooner rather than later I pray). Connington and Lemore will bring their Aegon to Dany. Can you imagine Barristan's shock when he sees Ashara before him, after believing her dead for the last 16 years? I think Lemore/Ashara will manipulate Barristan into supporting her mission to marry Aegon and Daenerys. Barristan will convince Dany this is her destiny, but I see it not going well for her.

[Silent Brother Clegane]

Lemore is NOT Wylla. Wylla was a peasant. Lemore is obviously highly educated. Given the limited educational opportunities for women in Westeros, she pretty much has to be a noblewoman.

IF...(big if, not that she had contact with Ned, but that she is Lemore ) Wylla actually had any sort of contact with Ned, and he was part of a plan that would greatly affect the course of her probably comfortable Noble's wet-nurse life, then I imagine he would most certainly see that she was well taken care of financially.

She would have more than enough time(from the boy's infancy to 4 or so) and support(Illyrio) to get the septa's training she needed to know what she knows now. Her wet nurse training and childbirth experience would provide her the knowledge of how to expel water from a baby's lungs.

BIG IF, but just sayin'...

[BastardSon]

I don't buy the Ashara=Lemore. Ashara had simular eye color to the Targs if not the exact shade. I believe Tyrion would notice her eye color, partly due to its uniqueness and the fact that her and young Griff would have nearly the same eye color. This may cause people to say she was Young Griff's mother. Her identity is a mystery and suspicious, and this could mean a few things like she has a secret identity, its just not that important, or she is a red herring.

[Olenna]

For those of you who think Ashara's beauty disqualifies her from being Lemore, I'll just reiterate my earlier point that beauty doesn't last in this story. There are no examples of any women over about 35 who are described as beautiful. Cersei, for example, was a knockout once, but not anymore. And I think it's significant that the way her looks have deteriorated with age is shown when she is clad in a septa's robe, which she takes off, prompting some kid in the streets to say "That can't be the queen, she's as saggy as my mum!" I tend to read Lemore's shedding of her septa's robe as a parallel to that. The reader is meant to think "That can't be Ashara, she's not gorgeous enough!"

For those of you who are bothered by her lack of distinctive eye color, I would point out that Darkstar's eyes were so dark purple that they were almost black. Maybe Ashara's were the same way. That's not something you would notice unless you looked closely.

[Flea Bottom's Up!]

I could buy that Lemore is Wylla. If Lemore turns out to be Ashara I'd probably have a new hole in my wall from a flying book.

It is possible that that there are two Wyllas. One would be the Wylla that helped Ned escape a dire situation during the rebellion and the other would be the wetnurse.

[Michael Jon Snow]

Ashara was a lady-in-waiting to Elia, and her brother was Rheagar's best friend. Moreover, she'd been "dishonored" by a Stark (probably Brandon) at Harrenhal and had possibly borne his bastard daughter. So she can stay in Starfall and live out a fairly bleak, lonely life of being shunned, or she can fake her own death and go off to help the supposed son of her own close friend, and her brother's BFF.

The "shame" done to Ashara by a Stark has to do with her falling in love with Ned at Harrenhal. Despite their love, Ned marries Cat (for duty) and then kills her brother. The man she loves is married to another and brings her the sword of the brother he killed. If anyone has the cause for ultimate suffering....

Not entirely convinced that Lemore is Ashara, but maybe...

ETA, Oh and I completely missed the miscarried baby.

[The Human Abstract]

Daenerys is going to be betrayed by Ser Barristan for Lemore (Ashara Dayne). The treason for love.

You people here are smart.

[Olenna]

IF...(big if, not that she had contact with Ned, but that she is Lemore ) Wylla actually had any sort of contact with Ned, and he was part of a plan that would greatly affect the course of her probably comfortable Noble's wet-nurse life, then I imagine he would most certainly see that she was well taken care of financially.

She would have more than enough time(from the boy's infancy to 4 or so) and support(Illyrio) to get the septa's training she needed to know what she knows now.

Yeah, Ned would have given her money and found a position for her, but it would have been pretty unusual for a grown peasant woman with a baby to "go back to school," so to speak, and get higher education, at least in RL. (Though to be fair, we don't know what the career path is for septas). IIRC Lemore is supervising a big chunk of Young Griff's education. It's unlikely that Jon Connington would entrust that responsibility to a former peasant. Not to mention the references to "Lady" Lemore.

[Olenna]

Daenerys is going to be betrayed by Ser Barristan for Lemore (Ashara Dayne). The treason for love.

Interesting hypothesis. Once Barristan hears about "Aegon," will he ditch Dany and go support him, as the person with the supposedly stronger claim to the throne? Maybe Ashara will be the one dispatched to get him?