{ADWD Spoilers} Sansa Stark

[the great garbo]

When? I can't remember her getting in contact with Greyjoy people.

People talk about the North falling to pieces and the kids being killed. Coming from the Lannisters, I think they're pretty happy about the failures of the North.

[ARYa_Nym]

When? I can't remember her getting in contact with Greyjoy people.

1- LF was the one that made "Cersei's plans" succeed. And Ned himself. It is not like Cersei was a genius.

2- Or she would have been captured. And... what is your point about that, again? Does any of this make Arya capable of doing better than Sansa at KL?

3- Again, suppose R'llhor did what I told. What would Sansa-finger do?

4- What would you have done differently if you were Doran Martell, my dear genius? Attack the Lannisters and have the Tyrells falling on you with all their strength?

The point is that Cersei has plans and she gets them executed.

There is no or. It didn't happen because Arya didn't just stand there and not fight.

Sansa-Finger would have never trusted Joffrey or Cersei in the first place. Back at Winterfell she got first-hand knowledge of how they were.

Dorne should have been gathering its strength and alliances since Robert's Rebellion. They act now when it's too little too late.

[Alexia]

Sansa-Finger would have never trusted Joffrey or Cersei in the first place. Back at Winterfell she got first-hand knowledge of how they were.

Yet strangely enough, a young LF actually thought that he could marry Catelyn Tully, and then thought that he could get away with fighting Brandon Stark for her hand. An adult LF asked Cersei to marry him to Sansa Stark. I'd say those actions count as naive and deluded, alongside the worst of Sansa's mistakes.

Love or hate her, Sansa didn't even have a POV or even a passing reference to her in this book, and the thread about her is still one of the largest on the ADWD forum. I think that's a sign that we need more of her :P

:thumbsup:

[Amae Koromo]

The point is that Cersei has plans and she gets them executed.

Cersei is just another piece. That much was shown when she got her POV.

There is no or. It didn't happen because Arya didn't just stand there and not fight.

So, you expect Sansa to be fighting people in KL? Great.

Sansa-Finger would have never trusted Joffrey or Cersei in the first place. Back at Winterfell she got first-hand knowledge of how they were.

Again. You didn't answer.

Suppose R'llhor gave LF Sansa's body AFTER she got captured. What would he have done other than buying a mirror and spending the day naked looking at himself?

Dorne should have been gathering its strength and alliances since Robert's Rebellion. They act now when it's too little too late.

Who would they ally with?

Starks? Unlikely, Ned is a huge friend of Robert

Stannis? No

Tullys? No

Arryn? No

Lannister? No

Tyrrel? No

Maybe the Ironborn at most.

[ARYa_Nym]

Yet strangely enough, a young LF actually thought that he could marry Catelyn Tully, and then thought that he could get away with fighting Brandon Stark for her hand. An adult LF asked Cersei to marry him to Sansa Stark. I'd say those actions count as naive and deluded, alongside the worst of Sansa's mistakes.

TBH, I think that very instance was the birth of Littlefinger. He was Petyr Baelish before that.

He asked and didn't get it but now he has manipulated his way to get her anyway.

[trio]

These threads have an unfortunate habit of turning Sansa into a Mary Sue who can do no wrong. Whatever she's done is excusable, whatever she has declined to do is quite understandable, and she is a closet Machiavellian plotter who is only waiting to poison LF in TWoW.

Tyrion once thought she worked a room like a queen, ergo she will be a perfect Queen of the North.

For romance, she'd be happy with Willas (whom we've never met), Harry (ditto), or The Hound, whom she hasn't met since she was 11, has less than zero in common with, and has an ugly temper, to say the least.

But Tyrion? Ugh! She'd be better off dead! It's commendable for Dany to have a marriage like that, but Our Special Sansa deserves better - some romance and a hot bod!

I have no problem whatsoever with Sansa in the books - I have some considerable problem with the Sansa reflected in fans eyes. I honestly think if she started to be subjected to the treatment meeted out to the other characters: Jeyne, Theon, Jaime, Brienne, and yes Tyrion, then the fans would have a shitfit. Cos somehow being a Lady has turned into "is bulletproof from physical pain" and that is contrary to GRRM's whole philosophy at this point!

I don't like that. People accuse Tyrion of being bulletproof but it's nothing on Sansa. I don't like there being a character in a brutal series such as this who manages to stay safe just by being quiet. It's not fair. Why should any one character get to stay so safe?

And no. At this point, losing your family is NOT comparable to what any of the others have gone through, cos they've had losses too. Everyone has, at this stage. And worse they have to then endure horrific pain and torture on top of that.

But LF kisses Sansa! With no tongue! Oh no! The fans act like this is the most heinous act imaginable. Because it's Sansa. And she's SPECIAL.

I want Sansa to have an amazing, extraordinary storyline from now on. But I don't expect it to be pleasant, and in fact I don't think they make the best stories.

[Rangers30]

These threads have an unfortunate habit of turning Sansa into a Mary Sue who can do no wrong. Whatever she's done is excusable, whatever she has declined to do is quite understandable, and she is a closet Machiavellian plotter who is only waiting to poison LF in TWoW.

Tyrion once thought she worked a room like a queen, ergo she will be a perfect Queen of the North.

For romance, she'd be happy with Willas (whom we've never met), Harry (ditto), or The Hound, whom she hasn't met since she was 11, has less than zero in common with, and has an ugly temper, to say the least.

But Tyrion? Ugh! She'd be better off dead! It's commendable for Dany to have a marriage like that, but Our Special Sansa deserves better - some romance and a hot bod!

I have no problem whatsoever with Sansa in the books - I have some considerable problem with the Sansa reflected in fans eyes. I honestly think if she started to be subjected to the treatment meeted out to the other characters: Jeyne, Theon, Jaime, Brienne, and yes Tyrion, then the fans would have a shitfit. Cos somehow being a Lady has turned into "is bulletproof from physical pain" and that is contrary to GRRM's whole philosophy at this point!

I don't like that. People accuse Tyrion of being bulletproof but it's nothing on Sansa. I don't like there being a character in a brutal series such as this who manages to stay safe just by being quiet. It's not fair. Why should any one character get to stay so safe?

And no. At this point, losing your family is NOT comparable to what any of the others have gone through, cos they've had losses too. Everyone has, at this stage. And worse they have to then endure horrific pain and torture on top of that.

But LF kisses Sansa! With no tongue! Oh no! The fans act like this is the most heinous act imaginable. Because it's Sansa. And she's SPECIAL.

I don't think ANYONE thinks Sansa can do no wrong. However there are PLENTY of people here who feel she can do nothing right. And if you think the worse Sansa has had to deal with is LF slipping her the tongue I wonder if you've even read the books at all

[ARYa_Nym]

Cersei is just another piece. That much was shown when she got her POV.

So, you expect Sansa to be fighting people in KL? Great.

Again. You didn't answer.

Suppose R'llhor gave LF Sansa's body AFTER she got captured. What would he have done other than buying a mirror and spending the day naked looking at himself?

Who would they ally with?

Starks? Unlikely, Ned is a huge friend of Robert

Stannis? No

Tullys? No

Arryn? No

Lannister? No

Tyrrel? No

Maybe the Ironborn at most.

Cersei attained power. She got what she wanted. She'll get hers because of Dany not Sansa or LF.

Sansa is not a fighter whether verbally or physically so no.

Manipulate her way to get out of King's Landing. Arianne had that Kingsguard doing what she wanted. Sansa could have done the same. She actually had a chance with Willas but she told that knight and he & LF betrayed her.

The Tyrells are fickle but they did align themselves with the Targs back then. One of the Dornes could have married Edmure. They could have put their past behind them in a co-effort to bring down the Lannisters. They could have gotten a Faceless to take out Gregor or Tywin or just poisoined them the Dorne way. It's not like there are no options. If the dragons hadn't shown up Doran probably was going to stay doing nothing.

[Amae Koromo]

These threads have an unfortunate habit of turning Sansa into a Mary Sue who can do no wrong. Whatever she's done is excusable, whatever she has declined to do is quite understandable, and she is a closet Machiavellian plotter who is only waiting to poison LF in TWoW.

The point is, she didn't have any room to maneuver. You can't expect someone totally powerless to do much.

Tyrion once thought she worked a room like a queen, ergo she will be a perfect Queen of the North.

Tyrion is a reasonably good judge of skills and she did show good ability during the Battle in KL. More than Cersei did.

For romance, she'd be happy with Willas (whom we've never met), Harry (ditto), or The Hound, whom she hasn't met since she was 11, has less than zero in common with, and has an ugly temper, to say the least.

But Tyrion? Ugh! She'd be better off dead! It's commendable for Dany to have a marriage like that, but Our Special Sansa deserves better - some romance and a hot bod!

People like Willas (considering what was said about him), Quentyn, etc are not bad matches. Be it for Daenerys or Sansa.

But Tyrion...

He is not just ugly like hell. He is a Lannister. I think neither of them would be interested in a Lannister.

Even if he looked like Jayme she would be less than thrilled to marry him.

I have no problem whatsoever with Sansa in the books - I have some considerable problem with the Sansa reflected in fans eyes. I honestly think if she started to be subjected to the treatment meeted out to the other characters: Jeyne, Theon, Jaime, Brienne, and yes Tyrion, then the fans would have a shitfit. Cos somehow being a Lady has turned into "is bulletproof from physical pain" and that is contrary to GRRM's whole philosophy at this point!

She is not one of the persons that have it the easiest. There are plenty of other characters that have it easier than her.

I don't like that. People accuse Tyrion of being bulletproof but it's nothing on Sansa. I don't like there being a character in a brutal series such as this who manages to stay safe just by being quiet. It's not fair. Why should any one character get to stay so safe?

Uh?

She was not really safe and in her situation as a hostage the best thing she could do is... Be quiet and attract as little attention to herself as possible.

And no. At this point, losing your family is NOT comparable to what any of the others have gone through, cos they've had losses too.

Now you just went full retard.

There is nothing worse than losing your entire family (like she believed she did). The only one she has now is Jon.

I think most people would lose their shit if they had to pass what Sansa did. She had to deal with news of everyone she loves being killed, except for Jon. She saw the heads of people she loved being shown as trophies.

And she did get her ass kicked by the Kingsguard.

[Han Solo]

These threads have an unfortunate habit of turning Sansa into a Mary Sue who can do no wrong. Whatever she's done is excusable, whatever she has declined to do is quite understandable, and she is a closet Machiavellian plotter who is only waiting to poison LF in TWoW.

Tyrion once thought she worked a room like a queen, ergo she will be a perfect Queen of the North.

For romance, she'd be happy with Willas (whom we've never met), Harry (ditto), or The Hound, whom she hasn't met since she was 11, has less than zero in common with, and has an ugly temper, to say the least.

But Tyrion? Ugh! She'd be better off dead! It's commendable for Dany to have a marriage like that, but Our Special Sansa deserves better - some romance and a hot bod!

I have no problem whatsoever with Sansa in the books - I have some considerable problem with the Sansa reflected in fans eyes. I honestly think if she started to be subjected to the treatment meeted out to the other characters: Jeyne, Theon, Jaime, Brienne, and yes Tyrion, then the fans would have a shitfit. Cos somehow being a Lady has turned into "is bulletproof from physical pain" and that is contrary to GRRM's whole philosophy at this point!

I don't like that. People accuse Tyrion of being bulletproof but it's nothing on Sansa. I don't like there being a character in a brutal series such as this who manages to stay safe just by being quiet. It's not fair. Why should any one character get to stay so safe?

And no. At this point, losing your family is NOT comparable to what any of the others have gone through, cos they've had losses too. Everyone has, at this stage. And worse they have to then endure horrific pain and torture on top of that.

But LF kisses Sansa! With no tongue! Oh no! The fans act like this is the most heinous act imaginable. Because it's Sansa. And she's SPECIAL.

I agree to an extent that some fans will go overboard in presenting Sansa as having done no wrong, but on the whole, I'd argue the opposite - that she gets more unwarranted and completely wrong hatred for her character than fans who are willing to whitewash her. I mean, it's not as bad as the completely contrived rubbish that Catelyn receives, but it's still pretty annoying. And I say that as someone who doesn't even like Catelyn.

And I do think that that Sansa is "too good" for Tyrion as it were. But that also includes Joffery, the Hound, Littlefinger and probably Harry the Heir. She's an fundamentally good person who makes mistakes, while most of her suitors are pretty horrible bastards. Tyrion is the best of them, I'd agree there, however his expectations of women are so skewed he could never hope to satisfy any woman ever. That has nothing to do with him being a dwarf, or being ugly, and everything to do with that he's a hypocritical, unrealistic, repressed douchebag towards women.

[trio]

Now you just went full retard.

Did you seriously just say that???

Seriously?

Sweet Holy Mother of God. Way to make it both personal and deeply offensive.

And you're kinda proving my point. Cos apparently everything she went through is worse than: getting your hand chopped off, getting your face bitten off, getting your nose chopped off and your back whipped repeatedly, getting your skin flayed off, being repeatedly raped and having to do it with the dog, becoming quadraplegic, having a still birth.....

Nope, Sansa has it much worse than anyone else.

[Amae Koromo]

Did you seriously just say that???

Seriously?

Sweet Holy Mother of God. Way to make it both personal and deeply offensive.

I suppose you didn't watch "Tropic Thunder"?

Cersei attained power. She got what she wanted. She'll get hers because of Dany not Sansa or LF.

Everything she has was given to her by her family. Tyrion himself said something like that.

Sansa is not a fighter whether verbally or physically so no.

Again, how do you expect her to fight?

Manipulate her way to get out of King's Landing. Arianne had that Kingsguard doing what she wanted. Sansa could have done the same. She actually had a chance with Willas but she told that knight and he & LF betrayed her.

How so? Explain how Sansa-finger would get out of KL?

The Tyrells are fickle but they did align themselves with the Targs back then. One of the Dornes could have married Edmure. They could have put their past behind them in a co-effort to bring down the Lannisters. They could have gotten a Faceless to take out Gregor or Tywin or just poisoined them the Dorne way. It's not like there are no options. If the dragons hadn't shown up Doran probably was going to stay doing nothing.

The Tullys already had family ties to the Starks. And they participated in the war in the Baratheon side. And what they wanted was not the death of only those two. They wanted more.

[trio]

I suppose you didn't watch "Tropic Thunder"?

Oh for Gods sake. Well I guess if it's an offensive quote from a MOVIE, then it's not offensive in your world?

:blink:

[Amae Koromo]

Oh for Gods sake. Well I guess if it's an offensive quote from a MOVIE, then it's not offensive in your world?

:blink:

You found that offensive?

[Raksha the Demon]

Sansa can, and has, done wrong; and has displayed very poor judgment. Many of the characters, old and young, in ASoIaF, have also made mistakes. Sansa has also demonstrated strength, dignity and self-control under dangerous and quite painful circumstances. She may not have warrior skills, but she does have the potential to be a survivor, if not a player, of the Game of Thrones. And she may still become a player.

At this point, I don't think that either Sansa or Arya are better than each other; they have both done what they believed they had to do to survive; and are still in danger because they have taken refuge with dangerous people who might well corrupt them; the Faceless Men are training Arya to become an assassin (sorry, I think that is an evil occupation) and Littlefinger is seducing Sansa morally and sexually. Time and the next few books (and I do mean few; I don't think GRRM can finish the series in two books) will tell how the girls turn out.

[ARYa_Nym]

I suppose you didn't watch "Tropic Thunder"?

Everything she has was given to her by her family. Tyrion himself said something like that.

Not her role as Queen Regent. That was her doing. That is why Twin sent Tyrion to hone her in. She created chaos because she was incompetent at that but she did attack her enemies. Even in captivity and after being publicly ashamed she was still plotting.

Again, how do you expect her to fight?

I don't. That is the point.

How so? Explain how Sansa-finger would get out of KL?

If she had kept her mouth shut the Lannisters would have never known about the Willas engagement.

The Tullys already had family ties to the Starks. And they participated in the war in the Baratheon side. And what they wanted was not the death of only those two. They wanted more.

The Tullys and Starks at this stage don't like the Lannisters. The Dornes could have aligned themselves with the North during the War of the 5 Kings. It's a lesser of two evils situation.

[the great garbo]

You found that offensive?

Retard is a pretty offensive term.

[the great garbo]

In my view, Sansa is neither awful nor awesome. She has not done enough to warrant hate or love. Other than her bratty phase in the beginning, I don't see how she's done anything so bad that deserves hate. At the same time, she hasn't done anything that deserves praise or worship either. She gets pushed around by those around her and so far, has not taken any initiative of her own.

[Lord Damian]

Sansa has had it pretty easy compared to her siblings. I think it is hugely symbolic that her wolf was the one killed after she betrayed her sister and lied to everyone including her father for her "sweet prince". If that was not enough, she did not have enough faith in her father's judgement to leave KL and send them packing so she runs to Cersie and gave her the jump to set Ned up and save her own ass. Sansa has essentualy sold her Northern soul and her Northern identity. Morally, she should be dis-owned by the Northerners but only Arya knows about the betrayal with the wolf, not her father to Cersei.

[Blue Steel]

In my view, Sansa is neither awful nor awesome. She has not done enough to warrant hate or love. Other than her bratty phase in the beginning, I don't see how she's done anything so bad that deserves hate. At the same time, she hasn't done anything that deserves praise or worship either. She gets pushed around by those around her and so far, has not taken any initiative of her own.

She saved Dontos's life. She convinced Joffrey to be compassionate to the woman in King's Landing who held up a dead infant even though Sansa knew that Joffrey might have her beaten for such presumption. She gave comfort to Sweetrobin.

Sansa started off a brat in the first book but she's developed into one of the most compassionate characters, probably the most compassionate of all the point of views.