ARYa_Nym Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 ???How is thinking about him as her "bastard brother" forgetting about him? If she'd forgotten about him she wouldn't be thinking about him at all.She explicitly said that she forgot about him I just don't have the quote. Someone brought him up when they were talking about the Wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raksha the Demon Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Find a way not to be so passive. She puts her life and trust in everyone she meets. It wasn't just the Lannisters. She did it again with the Tyrells. Littlefinger isn't Barristan but he doesn't need a sword to fight. Sansa is clearly not Littlefinger so I don't get why people think she will outdo him when she hasn't shown the capacity to do it.Sansa never completely trusted Tyrion; she only put up with the marriage because she had to, and she did believe that he was unlikely to hurt her; but she could never let her guard down with him because she was so distrustful of his being a Lannister.As for the Tyrells; or Florian, when you're drowning and a neutral party throws you a lifeline, do you take it and trust them, or sink, or take the lifeline and refuse to have anything to do with your rescuers? The Tyrells were kind to her; and, frankly, I think Sansa was desperate for someone to confide in at least to some extent, not to mention have friends again. She was still what, a kid of twelve years when this was going on? No one is blaming Jeyne Poole for begging Reek/Theon for help; and Theon had a far less trustworthy reputation in Winterfell than did the Tyrells as far as Sansa knew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlebird_ Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 She explicitly said that she forgot about him I just don't have the quote. Someone brought him up when they were talking about the Wall.but I am also giving you an example of a time she remembers himSansa also remembers a time they all went into the crypt and how Jon scared her and Bran and they all had fun so maybe after all the stress of her life for a moment she forgets about Jon, she also has instances when she remembers him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Hippie Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Find a way not to be so passive. She puts her life and trust in everyone she meets. It wasn't just the Lannisters. She did it again with the Tyrells. Littlefinger isn't Barristan but he doesn't need a sword to fight. Sansa is clearly not Littlefinger so I don't get why people think she will outdo him when she hasn't shown the capacity to do it.Sansa is a young girl spending most of the books as a hostage in the middle of Lannister-held KL. When she finally escapes she's an accused regicide, what exactly is she supposed to do? Fight her way out of KL? Your argument is not grounded in reality.How many people do you think would compete with LF at age, what, 13? For all the complaints about how Sansa is passive/"Bad" in some way, she managed her way through the KL ordeal pretty well and has clearly picked up on more subtle maneuverings (i.e. understanding what Lyn Corbray was doing on her own). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARYa_Nym Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Which is exactly what makes her situation so difficult. But who says you have to trust someone to learn from them?That is why I said the only way I see her getting out of it is by the aid of a 3rd party. She is defenseless now and LF has complete control of her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlebird_ Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Find a way not to be so passive. She puts her life and trust in everyone she meets. It wasn't just the Lannisters. She did it again with the Tyrells. Do you realize this is actually contradictory?Find a way to not be passive? maybe make alliances to make that she needs to trust a neutral third partythe Tyrellsbut you're saying she shouldn't trust them eitherhow can she act if she's alone??????That is why I said the only way I see her getting out of it is by the aid of a 3rd partybut you're also saying she shouldn't trust them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amae Koromo Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 As for the Tyrells; or Florian, when you're drowning and a neutral party throws you a lifeline, do you take it and trust them, or sink, or take the lifeline and refuse to have anything to do with your rescuers? The Tyrells were kind to her; and, frankly, I think Sansa was desperate for someone to confide in at least to some extent, not to mention have friends again. She was still what, a kid of twelve years when this was going on? No one is blaming Jeyne Poole for begging Reek/Theon for help; and Theon had a far less trustworthy reputation in Winterfell than did the Tyrells as far as Sansa knew.Agree.It was reasonable for her to accept the Tyrells plans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfbird Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 "Oh, and the Night's Watch has a boy commander, some bastard son of Eddard Stark's.""Jon Snow?" she blurted out, surprised."Snow? Yes, it would be Snow, I suppose."She had not thought of Jon in ages. he was on her half brother, but still...with Robb and Bran and Rickon dead, Jon Snow was the only brother that remained to her. I am a bastard too now, just like him. oh, it would be so sweet, to see him once again. But of course that could never be. Alayne Stone had not brothers, baseborn or otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARYa_Nym Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Do you realize this is actually contradictory?Find a way to not be passive? maybe make alliances to make that she needs to trust a neutral third partythe Tyrellsbut you're saying she shouldn't trust them eitherhow can she act if she's alone??????The Queen of Thorns and LF are perfectly fine with letting her be accused of murder so no she can't trust the Tyrells. They don't care about her. It's not contradictory. Finding a way to not be so passive is what she should have done if she wasn't Sansa. But that just isn't her personality. She'll remain a victim until someone who actually cares saves her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlebird_ Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Finding a way to not be so passive is what she should have donebut what is that magical solution you have? what should she have done to get out of KL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARYa_Nym Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 but what is that magical solution you have? what should she have done to get out of KLWell, she did go to Cersei and reveal her father's plans. Things would have been different if she and Ned weren't so stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raksha the Demon Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Agree.It was reasonable for her to accept the Tyrells plans.Personally, if I'd been the Queen of Thorns, I'd have added, and emphasized, a warning to the effect of "Sansa, dear; don't open your mouth to anyone, even people you trust, about our plan to marry you to Willas". Even if the Tyrells didn't know of Sansa's spilling the beans about Ned's wanting to leave KL, trusting a young girl, particularly a young girl who's alone and without her mother, to keep quiet about a wedding that would enable her to escape a miserable situation, is pushing the envelope of good sense. In fact, I wouldn't have told Sansa anything about marriage to Willas, just had Margaery and her maidens befriend her and start hammering out a deal with Tywin Lannister to let it happen if he wanted Margaery and Tyrell support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amae Koromo Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 The Queen of Thorns and LF are perfectly fine with letting her be accused of murder so no she can't trust the Tyrells. They don't care about her. It's not contradictory. Finding a way to not be so passive is what she should have done if she wasn't Sansa. But that just isn't her personality. She'll remain a victim until someone who actually cares saves her....I don't know if you are aware, but she agreed with the Tyrell's plan much earlier to Joffrey's death. And that was a good plan for her. Instead of staying on Joffrey's court, she would marry Mace's heir, for all intents and purposes a decent guy.And IIRC, it was not part of the QoT's plan to have Sansa taking the blame, but I could be wrong.And again, how could she not be passive? Do you have any idea? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlebird_ Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Well, she did go to Cersei and reveal her father's plans. Things would have been different if she and Ned weren't so stupid.you are going back to the first book now, that is not what we're talking about, you're talking about her being passive in KL when she was hostage and I am saying how could she not be passive and your answer is she went to Cerseiyes she did go to Cersei, how is that an example of how she could be more active while she was hostage at KL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rangers30 Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Easier said than done. She has no fighting ability, no wealth and no allies expect for LF.LF seems pretty keen on teaching her.Basically what I get from the majority around here is that they are pissed she's not more like Arya but ARYA is the exception. A lot more girls are Sansas than Aryas. Sansa is smart enough to realize this and uses what she can and does a pretty damn good job of surviving in spite of it all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlebird_ Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Personally, if I'd been the Queen of Thorns, I'd have added, and emphasized, a warning to the effect of "Sansa, dear; don't open your mouth to anyone, even people you trust, about our plan to marry you to Willas". Even if the Tyrells didn't know of Sansa's spilling the beans about Ned's wanting to leave KL, trusting a young girl, particularly a young girl who's alone and without her mother, to keep quiet about a wedding that would enable her to escape a miserable situation, is pushing the envelope of good sense. In fact, I wouldn't have told Sansa anything about marriage to Willas, just had Margaery and her maidens befriend her and start hammering out a deal with Tywin Lannister to let it happen if he wanted Margaery and Tyrell support. I agree, the QoT was a little reckless there as well, she divulged her entire plan right there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARYa_Nym Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 you are going back to the first book now, that is not what we're talking about, you're talking about her being passive in KL when she was hostage and I am saying how could she not be passive and your answer is she went to Cerseiyes she did go to Cersei, how is that an example of how she could be more active while she was hostage at KLThat is an example of her and Ned's weakness not of her being passive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlebird_ Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Basically what I get from the majority around here is that they are pissed she's not more like Arya but ARYA is the exception. A lot more girls are Sansas than Aryas. Sansa is smart enough to realize this and uses what she can and does a pretty damn good job of surviving in spite of it all.You have nailed it, that seems to be the main problem, with every example someone gives it basically means why wasn't she like Arya, well because she's not.There isn't only one type of female character, there are many and this series actually has a lot of different women in it. Not all of them are headstrong and have swords, it doesn't make them less strong. Everyone has different skills and they use them to survive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARYa_Nym Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Basically what I get from the majority around here is that they are pissed she's not more like Arya but ARYA is the exception. A lot more girls are Sansas than Aryas. Sansa is smart enough to realize this and uses what she can and does a pretty damn good job of surviving in spite of it all.For me no. I love Arya but I think she's on track to getting herself killed. I hate Cersei but she knows how to use her head. She is smart. Same with Margarey. Sansa is just vapid for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlebird_ Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 That is an example of her and Ned's weakness not of her being passive.But we're talking about her being passive and what she should have done according to you to not be so passive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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