{ADWD Spoilers} Sansa Stark

[the great garbo]

I think Sansa should end up marrying Willas Tyrell. She seems like someone who would like that, much more than she would like staying in the North where she probably didn't fit in as much as her siblings. We have Bran, Rickon and Arya still alive who can take over Winterfell.

[littlebird_]

A single, obviously political, marriage isn't going to bring the North and South together. There's too much bad blood and too much has happened, not to mention the entire north would be horrified to have one of Ned's girls married to Tyrion.

you're right, it won't be one marriage but I think it might bring some sort of military alliance. Though the north's reaction to the marriage was something I had not considered. If she does return North they would insist that that marriage be annulled. To them, and rightly so, that is equal to Arya being married off to a Bolton or to a Frey.

I am not sure about the marriage laws at Westeros but doesn't the North have a different ceremony in front of the godswood tree? In a North that may be separated does her marriage even count?

She seems like someone who would like that, much more than she would like staying in the North where she probably didn't fit in as much as her siblings.

That might have been true in AGot but by AFFC she actually thinks of the North and dreams of returning to Winterfell. Bran or Rickon can still take over Winterfell, she doesn't aim to do that, she just wants to go home.

[Wouter]

A single, obviously political, marriage isn't going to bring the North and South together. There's too much bad blood and too much has happened, not to mention the entire north would be horrified to have one of Ned's girls married to Tyrion.

Probably true at first (though it depends a bit on the exact circumstances - I'm guessing Dany & her troop will help the north with the Others), but if grandchildren of Eddard would end up on the throne eventually it could mean a firm tie in the middle term.

[Fat Walda's Paramour]

I can't help but feel Sansa would have been vastly improved if she had spent more time with northern noblewomen like Alys Karstark, the Mormont girls and the Manderly girls. All of them just burn with awesomeness. And if Catelyn had any brains at all, she would have sent her daughter to King's Landing with a bunch of ferocious little northwomen around her to protect her, the same way Margaery is protected by her ladies. If Lyanna, Alys and Wylla had gone south with Sansa, I can imagine they would've not only taught Sansa the meaning of loyalty, but they would've also raised such a stink when Cersei orders Lady's execution that it might not have happened. Also, Arya would have had some friendly companions to reassure her that being not-Sansa is cool.

I'm pretty sure Tyrion would've liked them too - sadly, I'm sure they would've hated him.

That would've been very wise. And if Catelyn was a woman of the North, she'd probably have thought of that. In SoS I remember she feels out of place amongst the Northern women and wonders if her kids had had a tough Northern mom that'd have been safer.

[Han Solo]

I think Sansa should end up marrying Willas Tyrell. She seems like someone who would like that, much more than she would like staying in the North where she probably didn't fit in as much as her siblings. We have Bran, Rickon and Arya still alive who can take over Winterfell.

That's true in AGoT, but the more she develops and gets stripped of her naivety and superficial nature, the more she proves to be her father's daughter rather than her mother's. Replace battle leadership with political savvy, and I wouldn't be surprised if she's all but Ned Stark with teats by the end of the story. She has the exact same qualities that attracted me to Ned, Robb and Jon, and only her passivity holds her back.

[Amae Koromo]

I can't help but feel Sansa would have been vastly improved if she had spent more time with northern noblewomen like Alys Karstark, the Mormont girls and the Manderly girls. All of them just burn with awesomeness. And if Catelyn had any brains at all, she would have sent her daughter to King's Landing with a bunch of ferocious little northwomen around her to protect her, the same way Margaery is protected by her ladies. If Lyanna, Alys and Wylla had gone south with Sansa, I can imagine they would've not only taught Sansa the meaning of loyalty, but they would've also raised such a stink when Cersei orders Lady's execution that it might not have happened. Also, Arya would have had some friendly companions to reassure her that being not-Sansa is cool.

I'm pretty sure Tyrion would've liked them too - sadly, I'm sure they would've hated him.

What you want is Arya 2.0, not Sansa.

Frankly, Littlefinger is the best influence someone can have in this series and she already has it right now (even if it was not a part of their plans). What use would she have as Arya 2.0 in political struggles? She would be very ineffective. Sansa's personality and social skills, coupled with LF's lessons will make her a much more formidable political strategist than Arya or those other girls could ever be with their personalities.

And in the end of things, political ability is much more important than warrior's strength or anything else.

Even compared to ability to command an army (more important than fighting ability) political ability wins. See Robb and Edd, that were great commanders but ended up failing hard.

If they had the political ability of a Roose Bolton, of a Littlefinger...

[C.T. Phipps]

I fully believe Sansa will be the one who finally strangles Cersei.

But yes, I think Sansa needs some North in her rather than just South.

A spine of steel AND the velvet glove.

[Wouter]

Ned Stark didn't fail in the rebellion though, nor in ruling the north for long years (it shows in ADWD just how beloved he was throughout the north).

So his political ability was just fine for the north, only not for the cesspit that KL had become by AGOT.

[Amae Koromo]

Ned Stark didn't fail in the rebellion though, nor in ruling the north for long years (it shows in ADWD just how beloved he was throughout the north).

So his political ability was just fine for the north, only not for the cesspit that KL had become by AGOT.

Too bad, he had to deal with other places other than the North.

It's not that hard to maintain your rule when everything is in your favour in a place where everyone supports you. Unless you are Cersei or Daenerys (when you would find a way to put everyone against you).

[littlebird_]

Sansa's personality and social skills, coupled with LF's lessons will make her a much more formidable political strategist

THIS. Sansa is not meant to be a warrior or a killer, she's meant to be a political strategists. She is a player of the game not a fighter of wars and in the game you do not get very far if you end up throwing a rock to the head of anyone who doesn't agree with you. It might be cool but it won't get you an alliance or an agreement.

[Dragons Dancing]

Just joined to add my two cents on Sansa's situation. Firstly, I don't think the Rickon reveal in ADWD changes anything. We as the reader always knew that there are at least two people alive with better claims than Sansa even if the characters didn't so the "plan" for the north was never going to succeed. Secondly, I doubt there was ever really a "plan" for the North, it might have been a little something Littlefinger added to make the marriage with Harry sound like a good prospect because he knows that Sansa wants to go home. Thirdly, in the grand scheme of things; Aegon attacking Westeros, the North fighting against the Boltons, the Others coming and winter, what really matters is not her claim on the North but whether or not she can exercise control in the Vale. There is movement in every other power centre of the map except the Vale and knowing that it is the area most prepared for winter means that it can if it chooses to play a pivotal role. Littlefinger probably will not ally with any side until he has a better assessment of the situation. This is, I think, where Sansa's role becomes important.

There are two main routes she might take

1) Marry Harry, become Lady of the Vale and claim some agency through that

2) somehow eliminate Littlefinger, tell the Lords of the Vale who she is, and assume Littlefinger's position until robert comes of age

Jaime's line that was quoted looks like a reference to where we left Sansa off at the end of the last book. It was the decision she was faced with; does she continue life as Alayne or does she play the game of thrones? From what we know she does not want to play the game or get married again but as the quote also tips us off she will end up playing the game even if its not what she desires. At this point we go back to the two options above, she has to choose one and play the game either with Littlefinger or against Littlefinger.

As to where she ends up at the end of the series that depends on the political structure of Westeros when the time comes. Everything so far has pointed to her ending up in some unwanted place of power but whether that is as Lady of Winterfell or Queen in the North remains to be seen (she can still occupy these positions with Rickon as heir because of his age) or if the Seven Kingdoms are separating and even if they are not a new system has to be established at the end of the war and she can have a role in the negotiations as representing the North since she is the most knowledgable about southern politics. How any of these factors come to play depends on the events of the next book.

As for TWOW, her primary focus was never going to be the North but the Vale and her role there comes down to does she play the game with Littlefinger or against Littlefinger and there are a myriad of factors that determines her stance in that, can she find a reliable ally in Royce (there was a mention of Royce wanting Littlefinger out of the Vale in one of Davos's chapters if I am not mistaken), does she want to save Robert (even if he is doomed does she want to play a role in that), when does she learn about Jon's fate or Rickon's fate, does Littlefinger learn about Rickon and the list goes on.

I like this analysis. The Vale has sat out the wars but with Littlefinger there now he will get them involved in some way and Sansa is likely the key. I only checked this post to see what was all of the hullabaloo when Sansa was not a POV in ADWD. Sansa will never come near to Ned's quality. She has betrayed her family over and over and it has always been about her survival. She has not suffered a tenth of what Bran, Rickon, and Arya has suffered. Sure she saw her father beheaded but she was not at Winterfell to see the slaughter. She has not had to kill to save her life. I do hope that there is more character development with her. If she were to become the Lady of Winterfall she would be an incredibly weak leader, even with character development. Of all the Stark children she has the weakest North traits. That being said, GRRM likes to put weak people in positions of power so it is possible she will get a shot at Winterfall. I think it more likely she will play a role in the Vale as this analysis theorizes.

[Amae Koromo]

he has betrayed her family over and over and it has always been about her survival.

How so? Can you tell the times she betrayed her family over and over?

She has not suffered a tenth of what Bran, Rickon, and Arya has suffered.

What????????

If she were to become the Lady of Winterfall she would be an incredibly weak leader, even with character development.

She has good social skills, good charisma and is learning politics with the best strategist in the realm.

Strong leader = someone like Robert Baratheon or the Greatjon?

Of all the Stark children she has the weakest North traits.

And that's a good thing.

[Dragons Dancing]

How so? Can you tell the times she betrayed her family over and over?

What????????

She has good social skills, good charisma and is learning politics with the best strategist in the realm.

Strong leader = someone like Robert or the Greatjon?

And that's a good thing.

Clearly you think that Sansa has queenly characteristics so I am not going to spend much time with this response. From memory, as I don't want to go back and review her chapters now, she constantly put down and made fun of Arya. She never tried to connect with her or help her. She preferred sucking up to the Lannister court. She was not close to any of her siblings and never wondered how they were doing after she left Winterfell. She ratted out her Dad to Cersei and even though she thought she would be helping him save his neck she helped them paint him as a traitor. I do not think Arya, Bran or Jon would ever have ratted out Ned especially to Cersei. She thought about escaping but never really acted on it. She was like Reek to the Lannisters but without the extreme degradation. She is a very poor judge of character, but seems to be getting better somewhat. She keeps hoping her knight in shining armor will come and save her. Despite her weaknesses, I still hold out hope that she will find the strength of character to actually do something that will benefit her family and the North. You seem to dislike the North and I like them (except Boltons & Freys)because I like that they had held true to the old gods and the old gods are playing a big role in these books.

[littlebird_]

Amae Koromo , what I have learned in my short time in the boards is every 5 to 10 posts someone will come to the thread and state how much they hate Sansa and you know the usual, I don't think the posts are made to actually have discussions.

Though it is always nice to hear how a girl getting emotionally and physically abused does not equal all the manly hardships people might have to go through war :rolleyes:

oh but I will indulge I guess

she constantly put down and made fun of Arya. She never tried to connect with her or help her. She preferred sucking up to the Lannister court. She was not close to any of her siblings and never wondered how they were doing after she left Winterfell. She ratted out her Dad to Cersei and even though she thought she would be helping him save his neck she helped them paint him as a traitor. I do not think Arya, Bran or Jon would ever have ratted out Ned especially to Cersei.

All from the first book and again based on a very preferential reading, Sansa has never though of her siblings since she left Winterfell? She dreams of naming all her children after her siblings, she remembers playing snowball with them, she rebuilds Winterfell from snow because she misses it so much

She thought about escaping but never really acted on it.

If she acted on it she would have died, the one real opportunity she found she took though it turned out to be a misdirection

[ARYa_Nym]

What is so good about Tully traits? I think Sansa is like neither. Her stupid friend Jeyne Poole reminded me of Sansa in Dance. They were too much influenced by their Septa.

Both are passive and weak. She only survives based on other people allowing her to. She can't fend for herself. If Winterfell survives it should be because of one of the boys not her.

[the Scorpion Knight]

I like this analysis. The Vale has sat out the wars but with Littlefinger there now he will get them involved in some way and Sansa is likely the key. I only checked this post to see what was all of the hullabaloo when Sansa was not a POV in ADWD. Sansa will never come near to Ned's quality.

sansa will never come to Ned's qualitiy in WHAT? in war? she's no fighter an she knows it

She has betrayed her family over and over and it has always been about her survival. She has not suffered a tenth of what Bran, Rickon, and Arya has suffered. Sure she saw her father beheaded but she was not at Winterfell to see the slaughter.

WHEN & were? on the other side she survived the Nest of Vipers Called royal court with joffrey's abuses and Cersei's neglections unharmed. ALONE!( something margery didn't manage)

She has not had to kill to save her life. I do hope that there is more character development with her. If she were to become the Lady of Winterfall she would be an incredibly weak leader, even with character development. Of all the Stark children she has the weakest North traits. That being said, GRRM likes to put weak people in positions of power so it is possible she will get a shot at Winterfall. I think it more likely she will play a role in the Vale as this analysis theorizes.

she might not kill to save her life but to save her cousin.( and her current husbands reputation by the way) and that is something that takes more Brass ovaries than being in a "me or you"-situation

[Amae Koromo]

Clearly you think that Sansa has queenly characteristics so I am not going to spend much time with this response.

So does Tyrion Lannister. And he is usually a decent judge.

From memory, as I don't want to go back and review her chapters now, she constantly put down and made fun of Arya. She never tried to connect with her or help her.

Yeah, this is totally a betrayal. Siblings never have petty fights.

Did Arya betray her family for always fighting with Sansa as well?

She preferred sucking up to the Lannister court.

That was her duty.

She was supposed to be a part of the Lannister court. Dunno if you remember that, but the plan was for her to marry Joffrey (a plan in which Ned participated).

She was not close to any of her siblings and never wondered how they were doing after she left Winterfell.

That's actually false.

She ratted out her Dad to Cersei and even though she thought she would be helping him save his neck she helped them paint him as a traitor.

The second one is not really a betrayal. She really, really wanted to save her father's neck.

Or the first for that matter. She had no idea her father was in a serious struggle against Cersei. She really didn't know anything that was going on.

I do not think Arya, Bran or Jon would ever have ratted out Ned especially to Cersei.

Who knows? Everyone can be deceived. And she was.

She thought about escaping but never really acted on it. She was like Reek to the Lannisters but without the extreme degradation.

Is that a betrayal??????

She is a very poor judge of character, but seems to be getting better somewhat.

Is that a betrayal? Besides, being a poor judge of character seems to be a Stark trait.

See Ned and Robb.

She keeps hoping her knight in shining armor will come and save her.

False

Despite her weaknesses, I still hold out hope that she will find the strength of character to actually do something that will benefit her family and the North.

What weakness?

Not even Littlefinger could do much in her situation in KL.

You seem to dislike the North and I like them (except Boltons & Freys)because I like that they had held true to the old gods and the old gods are playing a big role in these books.

The one true god is R'llhor

[ARYa_Nym]

For the record, she did discard one of her siblings-Jon. She basically said she forgot he existed in Crows. She is very much like Cat in her attitude towards Jon.

[littlebird_]

I find that equating strength only with fighting with a sword brings a very distorted understanding and a very "male centric" definition. Strength can come in different ways, I do not think all those women in real life who have survived domestic abuse are weak and neither is Sansa, it takes a lot of inner strength to survive the kind of abuse she did. Also active resistance is not the only kind that exists, there is also passive resistance and that is what Sansa did.

Being strong is not something females get to do only if they act like men but it is something they can do even when they remain a lady.

[wolfbird]

She basically said she forgot he existed in Crows.

????

Are you talking about the scene where Miranda mentions the Wall? Because she didn't forget about him. She blurts out his name when noone else knew it because she's so surprised to hear about him.