{ADWD Spoilers} Sansa Stark

[littlebird_]

Hmmm, that makes a lot of sense. I hope Arya dumps the Faceless Men and tries to find Nymeria. Bran, I think, will not leave that cave.

Still, we only got two Sansa chapters in aFFC, so I though she should have gotten some screentime in aDWD. Somehow.

Awww I hope Bran leaves the cave somehow. But yes at least this is my guess as to why she didn't get a chapter even though one is written, I might be completely wrong though. Even if she didn't get a chapter I had hoped we would get a different POV from the Vale, if he didn't want us to know what Sansa's response was yet, which I suspect is why we didn't get the chapter, than we could have easily gotten some news of the Vale through someone else. My guess is that with TWOW we'll get 2-3 chapters of her as Alayne before we turn into Sansa again.

Another Anna Torv fan, I see :) She was robbed of an Emmy nomination this year :thumbsdown:

She was definitely robbed :agree:

I'm honestly not sure why Sansa is such a special little snowflake that she deserves this lovely ending with the handsomest, most perfect guy ever. They don't bloody exist in Westeros, not anymore!

I don't think anyone even Sansa herself at this point is looking for that ending. But I do think she deserves better than to end up as some guy's reward for having gone through hardships.

Tyrion's whole character arc in ADWD seemed to be him gaining some self-acceptance and maturity. (He still kills without compunction, but then everyone else does too, so...)

I did enjoy his arc in the book, even though it felt like Martin indulged a little too much in descriptions and repetitions, it does give me hope that one day he might actually accept himself for who he is.

[Lummel]

As much as I hate Sansa, Tyrion as a husband I think is too much punishment. When little girls dream of their future husband they don't envision a dwarf.

Well exactly. Sansa starts the story as a little girl with Romantic notions. Maybe a woman who has lived a bit and seen the way the Westeros world works will appreciate that there's more to a good man than a pretty smile and a pair of long legs.

Doesn't she still have the hairnet?

No, she left it in the bole of a tree in the godswood in Kings Landing

[Raksha the Demon]

Oh I don't know. I certainly wouldn't kick Dinklage out of bed!

Tyrion's whole character arc in ADWD seemed to be him gaining some self-acceptance and maturity. (He still kills without compunction, but then everyone else does too, so...)

Basically, she could do a lot worse. He'd be kind. He'd let her do her own thing, I'd bet. And whilst she may never desire him, in bed at least he's happy to go downtown, if you know what I mean. :leer:

I'm honestly not sure why Sansa is such a special little snowflake that she deserves this lovely ending with the handsomest, most perfect guy ever. They don't bloody exist in Westeros, not anymore!

Even Sansa was thinking that, in AFFC, that the world of knights in shining armor doesn't exist for her anymore. Her main objections to Tyrion in the earlier books were that she found him physically grotesque and his lust for her pitiable, and that he was a Lannister and she could not fully trust him. She had been willing to do her marital duty and have sex with him, even though she didn't really understand when to do what; but when given the option of choice, she could not choose to willingly have sex with him; even though she tried to make herself see Tyrion as at least having some attractive physical attributes. If Sansa were to age by two or three more years, and learn more about what happened to bring down her father, including her own part in it, she might realize that Tyrion didn't have anything to do with all that treachery. She might be able to see that not all Lannisters are evil, or at least that Tyrion does have a moral center (though by then, he might have lost it, when I see Tyrion expressing the wish to rape his sister I am concerned for his soul, or at least his moral evolution). And they might be able to have a successful, if not sexually charged, marriage, where Sansa would allow him to have sex with her in order to have children, and turn a blind eye to his frolicking with whores.

Tyrion does deserve a wife who loves all aspects of him; for himself, and not just the Lannister fortune and prestige. But he may not be able to get it; or, if he finds that sort of woman, he may not want her - I think that may be why GRRM brought in little Penny, who is a sweet, not unattractive, young female dwarf. Tyrion has no desire for her; he wants a pretty, normal-sized woman to love him. And the only one who ever did was horribly abused and thrown away by his father, with Tyrion's own participation, however deluded. So Tyrion may have to compromise, if he ever wants a nobly born legitimate child, and accept a bride who does not find him, or pretend to find him, sexually exciting.

I wouldn't kick Peter Dinklage out of bed either; but book-Tyrion is not as handsome as Dinklage.

[ARYa_Nym]

I thought Tyrion asked her if she would ever desire him or something to that effect and she said never? She was more compliant with the thought of Willas.

[Han Solo]

I really don't get why anyone would want Tyrion/Sansa to happen - I like both characters, but they are terrible together. Even if Sansa gets over her physical disgust of Tyrion, and more importantly her distrust of all things Lannister, and then even if Tyrion stops being such an entitled, unrealistic, repressed hypocritical dick to women, they still have absolutely nothing in common. I wouldn't exactly wish the Hound on Sansa either, but at least they have an interesting chemistry going on.

[littlebird_]

No, she left it in the bole of a tree in the godswood in Kings Landing

thanks, then she better acquire new posions :laugh:

I think that may be why GRRM brought in little Penny, who is a sweet, not unattractive, young female dwarf. Tyrion has no desire for her; he wants a pretty, normal-sized woman to love him.

I am glad that happened, for all his talk about how women do not find him attractive and the resulting hatred of women because of that, he was not so willing to go to bed with someone who looked like him (plus a nose) either.

Tyrion does deserve a wife who loves all aspects of him; for himself, and not just the Lannister fortune and prestige. But he may not be able to get it

I think this is where Tyrion and Sansa are similar, they both deserve someone who loves them for who they are but neither one can find this person, everyone wants Sansa's claim and everyone wants Tyrion's money. Of course Tyrion unlike Sansa did have that person and lost her.

I really don't get why anyone would want Tyrion/Sansa to happen - I like both characters, but they are terrible together.

I agree, I like both characters also but really they have nothing in common and all they brought each other was misery.

Personally, I don't see Sansa ending up with anyone, if she does get out of her marriage with Tyrion and marries again it will be for political purposes only this time she will have more of a say in it and it won't be to a Lannister.

[Wouter]

I honestly don't hold the scene with the old blind dog as anything, really. I think it just revealed how pitifully vunerable she was at her arrival at the Fingers, and how grateful she was to have something to cuddle. They had no particular connection.

While I am not saying it was definitely a warg thing, Sansa did have a particular connection with the dog. It waited for her and made an attempt to protect her, such as it was. It is of course perfectly possible that the dog was just responding to the attention it got from her.

The marriage to Tyrion may be a false broken thing, but it is a very real protection against being married off a second time against her private wishes. A husband she never has to see is infinately preferable to a husband she has to sleep with.

The longer Tyrion stays alive and she stays married to him, the longer she can spin out this Harry thing without pissing off either him or LF, and without actually having to open her legs to anyone.

Yes, and the good thing is that Tyrion will very likely stay alive for far longer than LF hopes (he doesn't know Tyrion is a main character and the author's favorite to boot!). If Sansa doesn't want to marry someone, she has a perfect excuse.

OTOH, sooner or later he will return and confront her about what happened at the purple wedding, at least.

I'm a bit confused why everyone seems convinced that Sansa will try to escape, and possibly try to kill, Littlefinger? As deceptive and self-serving as Littlefinger may be, he seems to, basically, have Sansa's best interest in mind with everything he has been doing as of late. And if she were to escape him, what then? She believes she is the last living Stark and knows that she is seen as complicit in Joffrey's poisoning. Personally, I'd be much more interested in seeing her stay with Littlefinger, and continue to receive lessons from him in how to manipulate others to her own gain, and then use that against those who plotted against her father.

Littlefinger is threatening to slowly corrupt Sansa, what with the implicated attempt to slowly poison her cousin Sweetrobin. Most of us don't want Sansa to go down to his level of using people mercilessly, so learning from LF is OK up to a certain point but not if she really gets corrupted (similar to Arya and the Faceless man).

LF doesn't really have her best interests at mind, anyway. He wants to use her for his gratification and to get back at Catelyn ("younger girls are best off with older man" indeed :ack: )

Moreover, he has likely arranged for her father to be beheaded, has certainly betrayed him, has lied to her mother and father to get the war kickstarted, murdered Jon Arryn and betrayed his wife Lysa, has betrayed Sansa's planned marriage to Willas to the Lannisters and he has also done very bad things to her friend Jeyne Poole. He's actually one of the major causes of everything that is wrong with Sansa's life, as much so as Cersei and Joffrey. If she would know this, she would hate him.

And there is one imminent reason for conflict between LF and Sansa: he has all but admitted that he would like for Robert Arryn to die. Next time Colemon warns her about "sweetsleep", she will pay more attention to him I think.

In short, we don't want Sansa to turn into LF mk2 or Cersei mk2, we want her to keep a moral compass and care for her family and friends and for consequences in general. And if she does that, she will come into conflict with LF sooner or later.

Littlebird, Lummel;

Actually Sansa did take the hairnet with her to the Vale IIRC. While undressing she noticed the missing stone and concluded it was the poison, and she was smart enough not to leave the evidence implicating her behind. She stuffed it in a pocket and took it along, so LF may yet end up choking on his own poison. What a good day that would be.

As for her marriage with Tyrion, she has 3 major problems with it that really stopped it from working:

1. The fact that she was completely forced into it, without even given warning. Tyrion talking to her 1 minute beforehand really seems no more than a token attempt so he could pretend he gave her a choice (after she had already been told in no uncertain terms the wedding would happen)

2. She was made into a Lannister, and her husband was one of her captors, also one of those who had fought her brother and Stannis. That the wedding was also meant as a landgrab for Winterfell and indeed the entire north didn't help

3. she is sexually repulsed by him, not only because he is quite hideous but also because she was so very young and scared of what would happen

In the end though, I think it is the combination of (1) and (2) that made her withdraw behind her armour of icy courtesy, simply refusing to ever really talk to Tyrion or show him any feelings whatsoever. Sansa was so beaten down by then and so distrustful of Lannisters that she could not see a difference between him and Cersei. And given the circumstances, no one can blame her, even though Tyrion naively harbored hope he could bring her around. Actually Tyrion believed in pretty songs more than her at that point!

Another problem with the marriage is that Sansa didn't really appreciate, due to all the above baggage, how intelligent Tyrion is (and because of her distrust and the way he forced her into marriage she also didn't appreciate Tyrion's relative kindness), while Tyrion liked Sansa well enough but he never went past the initial impression of Sansa being a relatively dumb airhead (also because she simply wouldn't talk to him).

Once Tyrion returns, he will at least no longer be associated with his Lannister family which may help to some extent. I still see a possibility that Tyrion will end up as king (following in Dany's footsteps) and with Sansa as his wife, if only because they are married, Tyrion would need heirs and he did feel she would make a fine queen. They would probably need to have a shouting match at one another first to ever make that work, though.

[A Time for Wolves]

I can't help but feel Sansa would have been vastly improved if she had spent more time with northern noblewomen like Alys Karstark, the Mormont girls and the Manderly girls. All of them just burn with awesomeness. And if Catelyn had any brains at all, she would have sent her daughter to King's Landing with a bunch of ferocious little northwomen around her to protect her, the same way Margaery is protected by her ladies. If Lyanna, Alys and Wylla had gone south with Sansa, I can imagine they would've not only taught Sansa the meaning of loyalty, but they would've also raised such a stink when Cersei orders Lady's execution that it might not have happened. Also, Arya would have had some friendly companions to reassure her that being not-Sansa is cool.

I'm pretty sure Tyrion would've liked them too - sadly, I'm sure they would've hated him.

[Underfoot]

I can't help but feel Sansa would have been vastly improved if she had spent more time with northern noblewomen like Alys Karstark, the Mormont girls and the Manderly girls. All of them just burn with awesomeness. And if Catelyn had any brains at all, she would have sent her daughter to King's Landing with a bunch of ferocious little northwomen around her to protect her, the same way Margaery is protected by her ladies. If Lyanna, Alys and Wylla had gone south with Sansa, I can imagine they would've not only taught Sansa the meaning of loyalty, but they would've also raised such a stink when Cersei orders Lady's execution that it might not have happened. Also, Arya would have had some friendly companions to reassure her that being not-Sansa is cool.

I'm pretty sure Tyrion would've liked them too - sadly, I'm sure they would've hated him.

:agree: This so much! Can you imagine how awesome having those three, or any northern ladies, in King's Landing would have been?

[littlebird_]

he doesn't know Tyrion is a main character and the author's favorite to boot!

You never know, in TWOW we might get a conversation that goes like this

LF: Sansa I can not seem to arrange your marriage to Harry

Sansa: Why

LF: Because Tyrion is Martin's favorite so I am never going to kill him

In short, we don't want Sansa to turn into LF mk2 or Cersei mk2, we want her to keep a moral compass and care for her family and friends and for consequences in general. And if she does that, she will come into conflict with LF sooner or later.

:agree:

Littlebird, Lummel;

Actually Sansa did take the hairnet with her to the Vale IIRC. While undressing she noticed the missing stone and concluded it was the poison, and she was smart enough not to leave the evidence implicating her behind. She stuffed it in a pocket and took it along, so LF may yet end up choking on his own poison. What a good day that would be.

I remember someone mentioning that she has the poison with her but never had time to actually clarify it so she does have it and I am sure Martin did not just forget about it.

In the end though, I think it is the combination of (1) and (2) that made her withdraw behind her armour of icy courtesy, simply refusing to ever really talk to Tyrion or show him any feelings whatsoever. Sansa was so beaten down by then and so distrustful of Lannisters that she could not see a difference between him and Cersei. And given the circumstances, no one can blame her, even though Tyrion naively harbored hope he could bring her around. Actually Tyrion believed in pretty songs more than her at that point!

Another problem with the marriage is that Sansa didn't really appreciate, due to all the above baggage, how intelligent Tyrion is (and because of her distrust and the way he forced her into marriage she also didn't appreciate Tyrion's relative kindness), while Tyrion liked Sansa well enough but he never went past the initial impression of Sansa being a relatively dumb airhead (also because she simply wouldn't talk to him).

I agree, I think by the time they got married Sansa was unable to trust anyone and by the time the Red Wedding happened she was almost catatonic so their relationship was doomed. If the situation had not been so bad and they had talked I think they could have established a friendly understanding between them but it was just impossible at that moment. If I remember correctly, she does include Tyrion in her prayer at the Battle of Blackwater for example, at that time she is still able to separate Lannisters but by the time the marriage happens she is consumed by grief and hatred.

[Lummel]

Littlefinger is threatening to slowly corrupt Sansa, what with the implicated attempt to slowly poison her cousin Sweetrobin. Most of us don't want Sansa to go down to his level of using people mercilessly, so learning from LF is OK up to a certain point but not if she really gets corrupted (similar to Arya and the Faceless man).

Interesting that Sansa, Arya and Bran ar all three at this point now where they moral compass is threatened by exposure to power and they are stuck with morally dubious role models/teachers.

LF doesn't really have her best interests at mind, anyway. He wants to use her for his gratification and to get back at Catelyn ("younger girls are best off with older man" indeed :ack: )

Moreover, he has likely arranged for her father to be beheaded, has certainly betrayed him, has lied to her mother and father to get the war kickstarted, murdered Jon Arryn and betrayed his wife Lysa, has betrayed Sansa's planned marriage to Willas to the Lannisters and he has also done very bad things to her friend Jeyne Poole. He's actually one of the major causes of everything that is wrong with Sansa's life, as much so as Cersei and Joffrey. If she would know this, she would hate him.

Agreed, easy to forget and worth bearing in mind.

Littlebird, Lummel;

Actually Sansa did take the hairnet with her to the Vale IIRC. While undressing she noticed the missing stone and concluded it was the poison, and she was smart enough not to leave the evidence implicating her behind. She stuffed it in a pocket and took it along, so LF may yet end up choking on his own poison. What a good day that would be.

OK, had forgotten that, thanks.

I still see a possibility that Tyrion will end up as king (following in Dany's footsteps) and with Sansa as his wife, if only because they are married, Tyrion would need heirs and he did feel she would make a fine queen.

Agree. Although the relationship would also work as Hand & Lord of casterly Rock and Mrs Hand and Lady of CR

[Fat Walda's Paramour]

File this one under Never Gonna Happen But Would Be Hilarious and Awesome in My Eyes:

Sansa gets wise to Littlefinger but before she can turn on him he has her thrown from the Moon Door of the Eyrie. As she falls, Tyrion comes flying by on his dragon and rescues her. This gallant act makes her truly fall in love with him and they go off to live happily ever after.

[Raksha the Demon]

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: Works for me, LOL!

[Wouter]

If I remember correctly, she does include Tyrion in her prayer at the Battle of Blackwater for example, at that time she is still able to separate Lannisters but by the time the marriage happens she is consumed by grief and hatred.

Yes, she did pray for Tyrion the Kobold. Sansa was still remembering at that point he saved her from that beating, and she is usually very forgiving. But that was before the Red Wedding and before he forced her into that marriage she hated so much.

Nevertheless, Sansa's feelings on him are still ambiguous in late ASOS and in AFFC. She doesn't want him to die. Very forgiving girl.

To be fair to Tyrion, she got off very lightly compared to her friend Jeyne, stuck with that psychopath who makes Joffrey look like a perfectly nice guy in comparison. And if the Tyrells hadn't plotted for Joff's death, Margaery would likely also have been far worse of compared to Sansa and Tyrion, mockery of a marriage as it was.

Interesting that Sansa, Arya and Bran ar all three at this point now where they moral compass is threatened by exposure to power and they are stuck with morally dubious role models/teachers.

Yes, good point. And Jon's moral compass is also getting somewhat threatened, I thought the scene with Gilly was quite chilling, even though I also understand his actions.

Agree. Although the relationship would also work as Hand & Lord of casterly Rock and Mrs Hand and Lady of CR

I would guess so, allthough having heirs is crucial for the king (or ruling queen, if Dany rules herself), not so crucial for the Hand and even the lord of Casterly Rock. And Sansa as lady Lannister of Casterly Rock? That would be a bitter pill to swallow, and not only for the Lannisters but especially for Sansa herself.

[Raksha the Demon]

I'm not sure that Joffrey would have mistreated Margaery as much as he did Sansa. Sansa had no allies at court, and was the daughter and sister of named traitors. Margaery has a large and powerful family, including protective brothers and parents and a clever grandmother.

Sansa becoming Lady Lannister of Casterly Rock would be a bitter pill to swallow for Sansa and the Lannisters, but it could be a catalyst in improving relations between North and South, Stark and Lannister - assuming that Jaime and Cersei both die or become politically powerless - and help in the uniting of the Seven Kingdoms to weather the Winter and defeat the Others.

[Ser Hippie]

:agree: This so much! Can you imagine how awesome having those three, or any northern ladies, in King's Landing would have been?

They might well have been killed, held hostage at best. Once Sansa escapes while accused of regicide, they would have been in even more danger even if still alive. Sansa ends up growing pretty well as a character/person during her time in KL anyway, while still maintaining her better pre-KL aspects of her personality as well (see: her continued care for Sweetrobin).

As for Sansa/Tyrion - I just don't see even a non bitter/angry Tyrion being a good match for Sansa. She'd be happier with a Willas Tyrell or Quentyn Martell type.

[Wouter]

I'm not sure that Joffrey would have mistreated Margaery as much as he did Sansa. Sansa had no allies at court, and was the daughter and sister of named traitors. Margaery has a large and powerful family, including protective brothers and parents and a clever grandmother.

True, but given Joffrey's character he would have come into conflict with Margaery sooner or later. And protective brothers she has, but Loras as the Kingslayer 2.0 seemed like a foregone conclusion.

Joffrey turned on Sansa for a triviality (and while they were still allies), he would have eventually done the same with Marge.

Sansa becoming Lady Lannister of Casterly Rock would be a bitter pill to swallow for Sansa and the Lannisters, but it could be a catalyst in improving relations between North and South, Stark and Lannister - assuming that Jaime and Cersei both die or become politically powerless - and help in the uniting of the Seven Kingdoms to weather the Winter and defeat the Others.

True, Sansa will likely play a very important role in reconciliating the north and the south as she is herself torn between the 2. I don't think any such thing is going to happen in time to play a role against the Others though (Dany is taking her time to get to Westeros, and thus so is Tyrion), so it would be for the aftermath only. An important marriage alliance may be the only thing keeping the north in the seven kingdoms, after all is said and done. Jon and Sansa are the main candidates for that, from the northern side.

[Wouter]

They might well have been killed, held hostage at best. Once Sansa escapes while accused of regicide, they would have been in even more danger even if still alive. Sansa ends up growing pretty well as a character/person during her time in KL anyway, while still maintaining her better pre-KL aspects of her personality as well (see: her continued care for Sweetrobin).

As for Sansa/Tyrion - I just don't see even a non bitter/angry Tyrion being a good match for Sansa. She'd be happier with a Willas Tyrell or Quentyn Martell type.

Agreed on both counts.

We do have an example of a typical northern girl in KL, and Arya would likely have been killed or maimed pretty soon after being taken captive.

Sansa would be happy with the so-called boring guys like Willas or Quentyn I think - and probably with boys like Ned Dayne or even Podrick Payne and his like as well - but in ASOIAF, characters seldom get what they want. Political marriage is still the norm here.

[littlebird_]

As she falls, Tyrion comes flying by on his dragon and rescues her.

Can the dragon also please eat LF? :laugh:

Yes, she did pray for Tyrion the Kobold. Sansa was still remembering at that point he saved her from that beating, and she is usually very forgiving. But that was before the Red Wedding and before he forced her into that marriage she hated so much.

Nevertheless, Sansa's feelings on him are still ambiguous in late ASOS and in AFFC. She doesn't want him to die. Very forgiving girl.

Exactly, I think if she had not been forced into that marriage and if the Red Wedding had not happened she could have developed a friendly relationship with Tyrion. Even now in AFFC she does think of him as being kind. Sansa is not one to hold grudges for too long.

Interesting that Sansa, Arya and Bran ar all three at this point now where they moral compass is threatened by exposure to power and they are stuck with morally dubious role models/teachers.

All the Stark kids seem to be going through the same process; losing their identity, getting trained and being at the crossroads of losing their moral compass and I suspect/hope TWOW is when they will stark to come out of that and regain their identities. Of course, it might be that not all of them do but I still have some hope.

She'd be happier with a Willas Tyrell or Quentyn Martell type.

I do think she'd be happier with those types but in the end when did anyone ever get what they want? Whether it be Tyrion or not she will end up in a political marriage probably to bring the North and South together.

[Ser Hippie]

A single, obviously political, marriage isn't going to bring the North and South together. There's too much bad blood and too much has happened, not to mention the entire north would be horrified to have one of Ned's girls married to Tyrion.

Reconciliation will take time and something a lot more constructive than a marriage neither party wants or will enjoy.