{ADWD Spoilers} Sansa Stark

[Alexia]

And I think it is really important to remember that Sansa, for her age, was tall and well-developed, which may even mean that she would have safely survived childbirth.

I have another quote for you - Tyrion, looking at Sansa's naked body.

"You're a child."

She covered her breasts with her hands. "I've flowered."

"A child," he repeated, "but I want you. Does that frighten you?"

Also, a girl cannot safely have a child for at least three years after getting her first period. The body isn't done with development until then.

And to be clear - I don't think it is nice what happened to her, or fair, or whatever but it's just strikes me as completely natural decision from the Lannisters.

Yes, its a natural decision...from Lannisters. They bed their siblings too, gang rape 13 year old girls for stepping out of their place, have children brutally murdered, oh, and marry babies too! I'd expect nothing less from them.

Probably in the next village somebody just RAPED and KILLED a 12 year old. It's a cruel world.

Wait, this is supposed to make it better?!

[zuziako]

Wait, this is supposed to make it better?!

No, it's supposed to give PERSPECTIVE. In a world filled with murder, war and soon to be famine, a 12 year old being married to a wealthy lord who always has food to eat is really not that big of a deal.

And just to straighten one thing - the decision to marry Sansa early would still be natural for me if it was done by any other house except the Starks (and who knows if they would put politics above their sweet daughter well being).

[nategator]

I was reading through this thread and by the second page realized how boring Sansa is and stopped.

Thank god we didn't get any Sansa POV in aDwD!

[Raksha the Demon]

No, it's supposed to give PERSPECTIVE. In a world filled with murder, war and soon to be famine, a 12 year old being married to a wealthy lord who always has food to eat is really not that big of a deal.

And just to straighten one thing - the decision to marry Sansa early would still be natural for me if it was done by any other house except the Starks (and who knows if they would put politics above their sweet daughter well being).

Well, a 12-year-old being married to a wealthy lord who always has food to eat would be a big deal to the 12-year-old if her bridegroom was having regular sex with her and she was neither physically nor emotionally ready; not to mention getting pregnant and possibly dying in childbirth or suffering illness afterwards because she was too young to successfully carry a child to term....

As for the Starks putting politics above their daughter's well-being; when Robert first broaches the idea of his son marrying Sansa, Ned's immediate response is "Sansa is only eleven." Robert replies that she is old enough for a betrothal, and that the wedding can "wait a few years". Ned is agreeable, but asks to consult with his wife before giving a final answer. I am not sure that Ned was typical of Westerosi fathers when it comes to negotiating advantageous marriages for their children, though.

[rashtrakut]

Wasn't Genna Lannister about 9-10 years old when married off to her Frey - I forget what AFFC says but it may have been just a betrothal. Child marriage was not unknown in our timeline or in Martin's world - though typically you did not have the couple living as man and wife until they matured. For all the insults being tossed at Tyrion he was gentle enough to NOT consummate the marriage and in a bunch of other incidents - protecting Sansa from Joffrey or even when he breaks the news of the Red Wedding treated her quite gently - something even Sansa mentions to Littlefinger. She even recalls that Littlefinger did not lift a finger to protect her while the Imp did.

I doubt any other Lannisters would have been so forbearing.

[Lord Damian]

Sansa has a lot to make up for in regards to her family. Clearly, the least likeable of the Starks next to Cat, who well meaning in her living years made a mess of things, especially for poor robb, the young wolf.

[Joanna vander Poele]

I thought it was pretty obvious Tyrion had no choice in marrying Sansa. Or that a topic of debate...? He didn't seem any happier to marry than she was when I last read ASOS.

[Spring Bass]

I thought it was pretty obvious Tyrion had no choice in marrying Sansa. Or that a topic of debate...? He didn't seem any happier to marry than she was when I last read ASOS.

He could have refused the marriage, at which point Sansa likely would have been betrothed to some other Lannister. There aren't many other options in KL at that point, though.

To be fair to Tyrion, he offered her the same choice before it all went down.

[zuziako]

Well, a 12-year-old being married to a wealthy lord who always has food to eat would be a big deal to the 12-year-old if her bridegroom was having regular sex with her and she was neither physically nor emotionally ready; not to mention getting pregnant and possibly dying in childbirth or suffering illness afterwards because she was too young to successfully carry a child to term....

Well, duuh, but the question was if this marriage (and especially bedding) was accepted in the society or was it regarded as wrong. And in my opinion, while it might not have been the best thing, nobody would give a damn about it, since more grievous stuff happened. Not to mention I still see it as most common practice to marry of young girls for political gain in medieval setting.

As for the Starks putting politics above their daughter's well-being; when Robert first broaches the idea of his son marrying Sansa, Ned's immediate response is "Sansa is only eleven." Robert replies that she is old enough for a betrothal, and that the wedding can "wait a few years". Ned is agreeable, but asks to consult with his wife before giving a final answer. I am not sure that Ned was typical of Westerosi fathers when it comes to negotiating advantageous marriages for their children, though.

I think every Westerosi father would say "yes". Your daughter might be the queen. What do you say? I mean, do you even have a choice really? Ned was in this comfortable situation that king used to be his BFF so he was allowed some negotiation.

[Xcorpyo001]

Not necessarily. Sansa Stark is still eligible to wed the Lord of the Vale; she'll just be Lady of the Vale instead of Lady of Winterfell and the Vale. I wouldn't call that 'doomed.'

Actually, it's Sansa Lannister, and Tyrion has to die if she is to be eligible to wed.

Even if she seeks an annulment, some will not consider it legal.

[Saskia]

I think every Westerosi father would say "yes". Your daughter might be the queen. What do you say? I mean, do you even have a choice really? Ned was in this comfortable situation that king used to be his BFF so he was allowed some negotiation.

Ned turned down the crown. I doubt he would sell his daughter for power. To suggest that any father would do such a thing is a grim, rather than a realistic point of view, to be honest.

[jack88]

Ned turned diwn the crown. I doubt he would sell his daughter for power. To suggest that any father would do such a thing is a grim, rather than a realistic point of view, to be honest.

I think its incredibly realistic as far as Westeros noble families are concerned IMO

You're right about Ned though. He wouldn't sell Sansa for power cause he didn't want any, but to be honest Ned was very atypical as far as lords go

[TMWNN]

I thought it was a regular Septon who annulled Tyrion's marriage to Tysha (which was consummated)

Perhaps the same official who performed the marriage can also annul it?

[Maltaran]

Perhaps the same official who performed the marriage can also annul it?

I think it was decided that since a) the septon was drunk and B) Tyrion had lied to him anyway, it didn't count as valid because it was done under false pretences. It wasn't annulled because it never properly happened in the first place.

[Wouter]

I thought it was pretty obvious Tyrion had no choice in marrying Sansa. Or that a topic of debate...? He didn't seem any happier to marry than she was when I last read ASOS.

Tyrion did have a choice, though it is true Tywin did more or less order him to do it. However, Tywin also ordered him to not bring a whore to court in King's Landing and Tyrion did it anyway. He would hardly have been beheaded if he refused, and also not any more disinherited than he already had been ("you will not have the Rock"). Tywin and Kevan also discussed letting Lancel marry her instead of him, giving him an out right there.

They doubtlessly knew that Tyrion wouldn't refuse and not balk too much (he did suggest sending Sansa back to the north instead, to his credit) because they were dangling a sweet in front of his nose. Tyrion wanted Winterfell, and he also wanted a pretty, gentle and highborn wife who would love him (partly as an ersatz-Tysha), and that's why he ultimately went along with it. Tyrion was happy enough to marry her, until the point where she refused to kneel for him (and Sansa was so right in that moment). I think that was when he first realised that, just maybe, his wife kinda hated Lannisters and most certainly didn't want to be one.

In ADWD, Tyrion mentions that Penny is even more naive than Sansa was, and she should know better as she is older and not highborn. But the irony is, that Tyrion himself - though older and generally wiser - was himself believing in pretty songs a la Florian and Jonquil when he somehow convinced himself that he could bring Sansa to love him. Maybe because he had protected Sansa from Joffrey a couple of times, he thought she would be grateful. That the girl wouldn't accept being forcibly married to an enemy of her family, who had been holding her captive and who is a particularly ugly dwarf besides, apparently didn't really cross his mind until Sansa confronted him with the non-romantic reality. That Sansa didn't trust any Lannister whatsoever, after her "positive" experiences with them did not cross his mind. Who is doing the wishful thinking here, Tyrion? Life is not a pretty song, Sansa knew that by ASOS, Tyrion not quite yet...

He could have refused the marriage, at which point Sansa likely would have been betrothed to some other Lannister. There aren't many other options in KL at that point, though.

To be fair to Tyrion, he offered her the same choice before it all went down.

That's not quite true. Tyrion "offered her a choice" like one minute before the wedding, after Cersei had already told her she would be literally dragged to the ceremony if she didn't go by herself. And the choice was marrying another Lannister, which wasn't much if any better. Anyway, Tyrion was too late, Cersei had made sure the wedding would continue and he hadn't warned her beforehand, the least which he could have done. If he thought his supposed gesture made any difference for Sansa, she disabused him at the ceremony. She is not that naive anymore.

Now, what is good from Tyrion is that he belatedly realised what he had done (at the behest of Tywin and Kevan, who played him like a fiddle to get him to agree) and he at least couldn't go through with raping her. He also continued to protect her from Joffrey after the wedding and he didn't accuse her at his trial either. Tyrion is not a bad person for me, but agreeing with this forced wedding was not his highpoint as a a character. Even if it may not be totally abnormal in Westeros, I do think quite a few of the less ambitious and more scrupulous people frown at marrying a 12 or 13 year old in such circumstances, especially considering what the history was between Sansa and Lannisters. What was wrong with letting her marry the heir of Lannister ally Tyrell anyway? That would have been an elegant solution for Sansa from a Lannister POV, could even have helped eventually in pacifying the north. But no, the boundless Lannister greed and ambition got in the way again. And Littlefingers own plans for her, as well.

I don't know how accepted marrying and bedding 12 or 13 year olds is in Westeros - it happened with Dany and in this book with Alys Karstark I think (the latter apparently in order to escape worse), and also with Jeyne Poole - but it is not something Ned Stark or people from his calibre would look favourably upon. Certainly, Robb and Catelyn were horrified by it and their esteem for the Imp took a serious nosedive. Tyrion didn't do himself any favours by marrying Sansa.

As an aside, I recently found this illustration of Sansa and Arya on the Tower of the Hand website:

http://towerofthehand.com/blog/2011/07/01-bones-from-feast-starks/index.html

I have to say, this seems to the nicest depiction of Sansa yet. Seems to really capture her haunted look, as well as how young she is.

[rashtrakut]

What was wrong with letting her marry the heir of Lannister ally Tyrell anyway? That would have been an elegant solution for Sansa from a Lannister POV, could even have helped eventually in pacifying the north. But no, the boundless Lannister greed and ambition got in the way again. And Littlefingers own plans for her, as well.

Letting Sansa marry the Tyrell heir would have been dumb dumb dumb. The Tyrells already control one of the richest regions of the kingdom that largely escaped the ravages of war. Marrying Sansa would give them in addition half the landmass of Westeros. Why in the world would the Lannisters countenance such an increase in Tyrell power?

Sansa is the biggest matrimonial prize on the market. The way to reduce jealousies among the houses would be to marry her off to a younger son so that one house does not become overmighty...sort of what was attempted to prevent the war of the spanish succession when the two contestants Felipe V and the future Charles VI were younger sons whose older brothers renounced their claims. Nobody in Westeros is going to be thrilled about her impending marriage to the heir of the Vale either.

[Wouter]

Letting Sansa marry the Tyrell heir would have been dumb dumb dumb. The Tyrells already control one of the richest regions of the kingdom that largely escaped the ravages of war. Marrying Sansa would give them in addition half the landmass of Westeros. Why in the world would the Lannisters countenance such an increase in Tyrell power?

Because the Tyrells are their allies, and they would have to pacify the north themselves - using Tyrell power, swords and money that can't be used in the south. In the meantime, the Lannisters don't have to waste resources on controlling the north and can concentrate on KL and Joffrey. The Tyrells wouldn't be able to control the north overnight, they would have to contend with the ironmen and the Boltons. And after that, they (Lannisters) can always push the Tyrells to marry Sansa's firstborn or secondborn son to a Lannister girl. In the meantime, the Tyrells must countenance an increase in Lannister power as they claim castles left and right in the Riverlands, including Riverrun.

It would also have been a decent thing to do for Sansa, while keeping her firmly in KL's peace. Not that doing the decent thing matters for a Lannister, not when their ambitions are threatened.

Note that the Starks didn't object to a massive increase in Baratheon power after the rebellion, but then they weren't planning on fighting their allies already.

[Alexia]

Incidentally...

We know now that Littlefinger has had Jeyne Poole (Sansa's best friend) beaten and forced into prostitution. It seems that the narrative demands that Sansa find this out somehow. Any chance of that happening?

As I see it, she needs to learn about Jeyne's fate, and also LF's betrayal of her father. Sandor Clegane knows at the least about the betrayal of Ned and possibly about what happened to Jeyne Poole, so could he be how she finds all this out?

[rashtrakut]

Because the Tyrells are their allies, and they would have to pacify the north themselves - using Tyrell power, swords and money that can't be used in the south. In the meantime, the Lannisters don't have to waste resources on controlling the north and can concentrate on KL and Joffrey. The Tyrells wouldn't be able to control the north overnight, they would have to contend with the ironmen and the Boltons. And after that, they (Lannisters) can always push the Tyrells to marry Sansa's firstborn or secondborn son to a Lannister girl. In the meantime, the Tyrells must countenance an increase in Lannister power as they claim castles left and right in the Riverlands, including Riverrun.

It would also have been a decent thing to do for Sansa, while keeping her firmly in KL's peace. Not that doing the decent thing matters for a Lannister, not when their ambitions are threatened.

Note that the Starks didn't object to a massive increase in Baratheon power after the rebellion, but then they weren't planning on fighting their allies already.

First, the Tyrells have hardly been singed in the war of the Five Kings. They have all the manpower needed to pacify the north. Plus the North does not hate them like they do the Boltons, Lannisters and Freys. They will not be tied down there long and Sansa Stark will be welcomed there, unlike the Boltons.

Also, The Lannisters have been giving land in the riverlands to younger sons. Riverrun itself has gone to a Frey, albeit one married to a Lannister. The lord paramount of the riverlands is not a Lannister, it is Littlefinger. The Riverlands themselves are devastated and will be a while since they recover (they also appear to have taken the brunt of Robert's rebellion).

The Starks countenancing a rise in Bartheon power is different for two reasons

First, Ned and Robert were like brothers. They do not have the inherent distrust of the Lannisters and Tyrells.

Second, Robert dissipated the Baratheon power buildup. Storms End should have gone to one of his sons. He gave it to his youngest brother. Dragonstone was the fief of the heir to the throne and should have gone to Joffrey. He gave it instead to Stannis. So at the end of it all, Robert kept only the revenues of the crownlands and gave away the rest.

Of course now things have changed. If they ever manage to take it Tommen is now lord of Storms End and Dragonstone. He is also heir to Casterly Rock. Had Joffrey not being killed, my guess is he would have ended up with Storms End. Very different than letting one man take over the revenues of two of the 7 kingdoms. Tyrion being married off to Sansa was also in implicit recognition he would never get the Rock. Tywin always meant for Jaime to get it. Renly and Stannis show that once kingdoms are split up the rulers go their own ways.

So Had Tywin and Joffrey lived and Jaime left the KG you would have had Tyrion as lord of the north, Jaime in the Rock and probably Tommen in Storms End. Nobody would have two kingdoms. Now those two deaths have messed the plan up.

Maybe Tywin could have considered giving Sansa to a younger Tyrell if one was availabe (Garlan is married and the Knight of Flowers in the KG), but giving her to the heir of the Tyrells was nuts.

[Wouter]

Incidentally...

We know now that Littlefinger has had Jeyne Poole (Sansa's best friend) beaten and forced into prostitution. It seems that the narrative demands that Sansa find this out somehow. Any chance of that happening?

Maybe from Bran, through the "weirwood internet"? Or even through dreams? That assumes Bran learns this info in the first place, but I guess that is his business now anyway - "a thousand eyes".

LF needs to die horribly. Maybe on his own poison, Sansa still has it I think.