{ADWD Spoilers} Sansa Stark

[Alexia]

The suggestions of Gendry are amusing but unlikely. If we want a son of Robert's, it seems Edric might be more likely (and I think he's pretty unlikely). Anyway, I don't think most people are advocating for her to wind up with a hot guy on that basis alone and I think its a pretty massive distortion of what fans are saying. I, for one, would have been just fine with Quentyn and he's not that attractive -- but he does have a good heart. A lot of people (myself included) love the subplot of Sansa and the Hound, and he is described as hideous. And complaining that people are interested in seeing who Sansa marries and want a bit of romance for her seems a bit off, considering that her story from AGOT has been all about marriage and the upsides and downsides therein. And a lot of the discussion about who she marries revolves around the political benefits therein; very few people are advocating for her to marry Sandor Clegane and ride off into the sunset. I actually think that is a pretty gross misrepresentation of the conversation.

Tyrion has no business ending up with any woman in this story, IMO. His reactions to Penny are actually fascinating, a girl finally kisses him without any interest in receiving gold in exchange and he is repulsed by her. He's a fascinating character and I love reading about him, but I wouldn't wish him on any female character for reasons that have already been gone into in depth by others. What I find especially repulsive about that particular "ship" is that Sansa was given to him against her will as a reward for her efforts in battle, but also as a "sharp lesson" to both Sansa and the Tyrells about plotting behind the Lannisters' back. Also, why should Tyrion get a happy ending of getting the hot girl and the whores on the side after everything that he has done in this series? I don't want him with any girl, especially after his comments about his desire to rape and kill his sister, his treatment of Illyrio's slave, et al. I'm really glad that he encountered Penny, because the reality check he's been getting about just how good he has always had it is quite an interesting read. His experience in slavery and with Penny seems to be making him a better person, for which I am glad. All that being said, I think he's got a good shot of dying of greyscale now.

I like Sansa not because she is some Mary Sue who never makes mistakes (something else I didn't see anyone say) but because she is a realistically flawed character who has a very compelling arc. Everything she does rings true to me as realistic for a child of her age, which isn't really the case with a number of other characters, and I desperately wanted her to escape Lannisters. She also undergoes adversity and comes out of it a better person, as shown by her interactions with numerous characters including Sandor Clegane, Cersei, Lancel, et cetera. And she is one of the characters who I would really like to see have a happy ending, or at least be in a position where she can make herself her own happy ending.

Nope, Sansa has it much worse than anyone else.

I think that you are the only one saying that. Unless you care to repost someone's comment in this thread where this was said?

[Total Depravity]

You found that offensive?

As did I.

[Raksha the Demon]

The suggestions of Gendry are amusing but unlikely. If we want a son of Robert's, it seems Edric might be more likely (and I think he's pretty unlikely). Anyway, I don't think most people are advocating for her to wind up with a hot guy on that basis alone and I think its a pretty massive distortion of what fans are saying. I, for one, would have been just fine with Quentyn and he's not that attractive -- but he does have a good heart. A lot of people (myself included) love the subplot of Sansa and the Hound, and he is described as hideous. And complaining that people are interested in seeing who Sansa marries and want a bit of romance for her seems a bit off, considering that her story from AGOT has been all about marriage and the upsides and downsides therein. And a lot of the discussion about who she marries revolves around the political benefits therein; very few people are advocating for her to marry Sandor Clegane and ride off into the sunset. I actually think that is a pretty gross misrepresentation of the conversation.

Tyrion has no business ending up with any woman in this story, IMO. His reactions to Penny are actually fascinating, a girl finally kisses him without any interest in receiving gold in exchange and he is repulsed by her. He's a fascinating character and I love reading about him, but I wouldn't wish him on any female character for reasons that have already been gone into in depth by others. What I find especially repulsive about that particular "ship" is that Sansa was given to him against her will as a reward for her efforts in battle, but also as a "sharp lesson" to both Sansa and the Tyrells about plotting behind the Lannisters' back. Also, why should Tyrion get a happy ending of getting the hot girl and the whores on the side after everything that he has done in this series? I don't want him with any girl, especially after his comments about his desire to rape and kill his sister, his treatment of Illyrio's slave, et al. I'm really glad that he encountered Penny, because the reality check he's been getting about just how good he has always had it is quite an interesting read. His experience in slavery and with Penny seems to be making him a better person, for which I am glad. All that being said, I think he's got a good shot of dying of greyscale now.

I like Sansa not because she is some Mary Sue who never makes mistakes (something else I didn't see anyone say) but because she is a realistically flawed character who has a very compelling arc. Everything she does rings true to me as realistic for a child of her age, which isn't really the case with a number of other characters, and I desperately wanted her to escape Lannisters. She also undergoes adversity and comes out of it a better person, as shown by her interactions with numerous characters including Sandor Clegane, Cersei, Lancel, et cetera. And she is one of the characters who I would really like to see have a happy ending, or at least be in a position where she can make herself her own happy ending.

I think that you are the only one saying that. Unless you care to repost someone's comment in this thread where this was said?

Very good post, Alexia. I've always found Sansa to be a compelling character; maybe because I was somewhat like her as a kid, believing in knights in shining armor, hoping for a good marriage; having a sheltered life - though I wouldn't have thought of defying my father if he'd said we were going to leave, not even for a boy I liked, and forget about needlework. But she's so out of her depth in King's Landing after Ned's death; it's fascinating to watch how Sansa copes with and survives her hostile environment, and to watch her grow up.

I must confess to having Tyrion much more before he murdered his unarmed father and Shae. Not that Tywin didn't deserve killing; and Tyrion did have a right to avenge Tysha's rape, but I think those acts damaged Tyrion for good. It's very ugly hearing him say he wants to rape his sister; I can understand his wanting to kill her, but to rape her as well, shows that Tyrion has grown more vicious in his desires. He never used to go around saying that he killed his mother, if I remember correctly. Where Tyrion might finally get a chance to shine and keep shining is if Dany accepts him into her service and Tyrion becomes her councillor and a dragon-rider or at least a dragon-tamer.

I still wish that Tyrion hadn't lied about killing Joffrey, especially to Jaime. They had a special relationship, and now it's shattered, probably forever, especially since Tyrion is bent on betraying not only Jaime but all the Lannisters and Seven Kingdoms.

[theepajaro]

[quote name

The suggestions of Gendry are amusing but unlikely. If we want a son of Robert's, it seems Edric might be more likely (and I think he's pretty unlikely). Anyway, I don't think most people are advocating for her to wind up with a hot guy on that basis alone and I think its a pretty massive distortion of what fans are saying. I, for one, would have been just fine with Quentyn and he's not that attractive -- but he does have a good heart. A lot of people (myself included) love the subplot of Sansa and the Hound, and he is described as hideous. And complaining that people are interested in seeing who Sansa marries and want a bit of romance for her seems a bit off, considering that her story from AGOT has been all about marriage and the upsides and downsides therein. And a lot of the discussion about who she marries revolves around the political benefits therein; very few people are advocating for her to marry Sandor Clegane and ride off into the sunset. I actually think that is a pretty gross misrepresentation of the conversation.

Tyrion has no business ending up with any woman in this story, IMO. His reactions to Penny are actually fascinating, a girl finally kisses him without any interest in receiving gold in exchange and he is repulsed by her. He's a fascinating character and I love reading about him, but I wouldn't wish him on any female character for reasons that have already been gone into in depth by others. What I find especially repulsive about that particular "ship" is that Sansa was given to him against her will as a reward for her efforts in battle, but also as a "sharp lesson" to both Sansa and the Tyrells about plotting behind the Lannisters' back. Also, why should Tyrion get a happy ending of getting the hot girl and the whores on the side after everything that he has done in this series? I don't want him with any girl, especially after his comments about his desire to rape and kill his sister, his treatment of Illyrio's slave, et al. I'm really glad that he encountered Penny, because the reality check he's been getting about just how good he has always had it is quite an interesting read. His experience in slavery and with Penny seems to be making him a better person, for which I am glad. All that being said, I think he's got a good shot of dying of greyscale now.

I like Sansa not because she is some Mary Sue who never makes mistakes (something else I didn't see anyone say) but because she is a realistically flawed character who has a very compelling arc. Everything she does rings true to me as realistic for a child of her age, which isn't really the case with a number of other characters, and I desperately wanted her to escape Lannisters. She also undergoes adversity and comes out of it a better person, as shown by her interactions with numerous characters including Sandor Clegane, Cersei, Lancel, et cetera. And she is one of the characters who I would really like to see have a happy ending, or at least be in a position where she can make herself her own happy ending.

I think that you are the only one saying that. Unless you care to repost someone's comment in this thread where this was said?

[Joanna vander Poele]

Funny... it just struck me yesterday how much of a little girly Ned Sansa is. They are the male/female representations of chivalry respectively, and unfortunately that doesn't work out for either of them. Though ironically Sansa, being younger, impressionable, and more malleable, is probably better suited to play the game of thrones than any other Stark.

I am a bit bemused at people being unhappy that Sansa doesn't think of Jon too often and considers him only a halfbrother. Jon's situation is very, very atypical; most bastards wouldn't have one-tenth of his upbringing, and for the legitimate Starks to think of him as brother at all must be pretty unique. I think Sansa's opinion of him is much kinder than other nobles' would be. In any case, she's never been malicious to him (as far as I recall), and did dream of seeing him in AFFC. And I was tickled pink that Jon kept insisting Winterfell belonged to Sansa, even it may not have been out of sibling affection ;) I would love for them to meet sometime; they've never had a real-time interaction in the series, and I think any reunion of theirs would be surprisingly heartwarming, especially if they still think everyone else in their family is dead.

[ARYa_Nym]

I am a bit bemused at people being unhappy that Sansa doesn't think of Jon too often and considers him only a halfbrother. Jon's situation is very, very atypical; most bastards wouldn't have one-tenth of his upbringing, and for the legitimate Starks to think of him as brother at all must be pretty unique.

Of course, that isn't how Eddard raised them. He wanted them to be close as if they were true brothers and sisters. Probably in part because Jon is most likely really Prince Rhaegar and Lyanna's child so Jon got special treatment.

[Faint]

It strikes me that Sansa doesn't really have a lot to offer in a marriage by now, at least, politically speaking. What is a marriage to her really worth at this point? Her youngest brother is going to have a hard enough time reconstituting the North into a workable kingdom. House Tully also has heirs that take over her and even supposing that Edmure, his child, and the Blackfish all die, the Riverlands are arguably even more destroyed than the North. Granted, Littlefinger, has no idea that Rickon and Arya are still alive, much less Bran (although he probably won't factor anymore).

I start to wonder whether Sansa's future has already been foreshadowed in Jaime's lone chapter in the book.

[Olenna]

I would hate for Tyrion and Sansa to end up together, but does anyone else see Tyrion's friendship with Penny as possible foreshadowing of that outcome? Penny's main distinguishing feature is her naivete. Tyrion is irritated by it but learns to like her anyway. Might this be a hint that if he met an older and wiser but still romantic and vulnerable Sansa down the road--someone who's more of an intellectual equal than Penny but still in need of his emotional protectiveness--he would find her more endearing?

Please tell me I'm wrong.

[Alexia]

House Tully also has heirs that take over her and even supposing that Edmure, his child, and the Blackfish all die, the Riverlands are arguably even more destroyed than the North.

Minor correction, the Blackfish comes after Sansa (and after Sweetrobin) in the line of succession for Riverrun. So we are assuming that Edmure dies (which I think is a given) and that the Blackfish and the riverlords support Sansa over Roslin Frey's child, which I think is a no-brainer given how many of the riverlords lost family at the Red Wedding.

There's always the possibility that the Blackfish decides to claim it himself, which isn't outside of the realm of possibility. But I think that he is on the way to the Vale to get Sweetrobin to put in a claim to the Vale, even knowing that Edmure is still alive, and will find Sansa there. In fact, didn't someone say upthread that GRRM didn't include the Sansa chapter in ADWD because it introduced a new plotline for her? I'd really bet that Brynden's arrival is that plotline.

[Raksha the Demon]

Sansa could really use a kindly (and capable) uncle who will go to bat for her. Hopefully, if Brynden Tully does back Sansa over Edmure's child (presuming Edmure is dead), Littlefinger won't decide to cook himself some blackfish.

[littlebird_]

I start to wonder whether Sansa's future has already been foreshadowed in Jaime's lone chapter in the book.

I consider what Jaime said to be something Sansa could be content with so I don't think she'll end up like he said. And there are two books left, the final act is coming, I can not imagine it being and then she stayed Alayne.

It strikes me that Sansa doesn't really have a lot to offer in a marriage by now, at least, politically speaking. What is a marriage to her really worth at this point?

A marriage isn't worth anything to her, she doesn't want it, but a marriage to Sansa Stark is still worth something, not as a way to claim the North (The Tyrells never aimed to claim the North when proposing a marriage) I think she still has not escaped the problem of her claim

I would hate for Tyrion and Sansa to end up together, but does anyone else see Tyrion's friendship with Penny as possible foreshadowing of that outcome? Penny's main distinguishing feature is her naivete. Tyrion is irritated by it but learns to like her anyway. Might this be a hint that if he met an older and wiser but still romantic and vulnerable Sansa down the road--someone who's more of an intellectual equal than Penny but still in need of his emotional protectiveness--he would find her more endearing?

Please tell me I'm wrong.

At the rate the book is going with respect to pacing, I would be surprised if Sansa and Tyrion ever actually meet again. I have a feeling most of the resolutions for relationships might not come to be.

[Podrick + Arya = Win]

I still wish that Tyrion hadn't lied about killing Joffrey, especially to Jaime. They had a special relationship, and now it's shattered, probably forever, especially since Tyrion is bent on betraying not only Jaime but all the Lannisters and Seven Kingdoms.

A betrayer deserves betrayal. Tyrion did not owe Jaime any truth after what was done to him. I don't give one whit about Tyrion except for the humour he brings to the books, but if he brings down every last Lannister and Westeros, I'll be glad.

[Podrick + Arya = Win]

Sansa could really use a kindly (and capable) uncle who will go to bat for her. Hopefully, if Brynden Tully does back Sansa over Edmure's child (presuming Edmure is dead), Littlefinger won't decide to cook himself some blackfish.

Edmure's child. Bah. Frey blood.

[Faint]

I, for one, am not all together or even a little bit convinced that Edmure Tully is doomed. Who has a real motivation to kill him at this point? The Freys, perhaps, but only if his wife gives birth to a son. And in my opinion, the Freys won't even be around long enough to get to that point. I suppose Catelyn might end up causing his death if she has a strong motivation to kill all the Spicers and ambushes the party going to Casterly Rock, but this remains to be seen.

[Trackrunner]

I like Sansa not because she is some Mary Sue who never makes mistakes (something else I didn't see anyone say) but because she is a realistically flawed character who has a very compelling arc. Everything she does rings true to me as realistic for a child of her age, which isn't really the case with a number of other characters, and I desperately wanted her to escape Lannisters. She also undergoes adversity and comes out of it a better person, as shown by her interactions with numerous characters including Sandor Clegane, Cersei, Lancel, et cetera. And she is one of the characters who I would really like to see have a happy ending, or at least be in a position where she can make herself her own happy ending.

Excellent post, Alexia, I agree with everything you said. I've never quite understood the basis of the Sansa/Tyrion ship, especially the idea that Sansa is the one at fault for the failure of the marriage or that she should "learn to love" Tyrion. After reading ADwD, I'm starting to think Tyrion is the one who will seek an annulment first. He thinks of Sansa all of, what, two or three times in the whole book? And none of them particularly fondly, as I recall. She doesn't seem to be high on his list of priorities, and I doubt he will suddenly decide he wants to spend his life with her. Sansa and Tyrion made each other miserable, though neither of them were doing it on purpose, IMHO.

As far as Sansa's marital and/or romantic prospects... whoever makes her happy will make me happy too. I think she would be happiest back at Winterfell, however, so that somewhat limits her choices in a spouse. Unlikely as it is, I think someone like Podrick Payne would be her ideal love interest: kind, brave, devoted, and on the road to being a true knight.

Regarding Sansa's attitude towards Jon: is it really any different than the rest of her siblings? Even Arya has a line in ASoS about how, with Sansa gone, there were no true Starks left, only Jon and he wasn't really a Stark. And as someone else noted, Sansa included Jon in her Blackwater prayers.

[Alexia]

I, for one, am not all together or even a little bit convinced that Edmure Tully is doomed. Who has a real motivation to kill him at this point?

Genna Lannister advocated it, for one. Jaime may well die at the beginning of the next book and what's to make the next Lannister-in-chief (Cersei, apparently) not give the orders to kill him?

Even if he does survive, I'm not really convinced that the riverlords or Uncle Brynden will accept him returning as their lord given some of the commentary in ADWD. Which is kind of sad, considering that Edmure is one of the best noblemen we've seen so far, trying to keep his smallfolk safe in his castle and whatnot else. They would probably support another Tully, however, especially one that the Blackfish supports. And choosing Sansa would be a glorious thumb in the eye of House Lannister AND House Frey...

The eventual fate of the riverlands and the Tullys is something that I'm very intrigued by, especially after the Frey takeover of Riverrun. I could see it going either way, but I have a lot of confidence in the Sansa of Riverrun theory for the moment. :)

[Faint]

I suppose Cersei could order his execution if Jaime is still missing. Indeed, she can probably have it done even if Jaime is standing right next to her. With Kevan no longer around there really is nothing to stop her from having him executed. Although, I question why she would even bother. As for Genna, now there is a character who is starring at death in the face.

In any case, I'm one of those who theorize that Alayne Stone will remain Alayne Stone for the rest of her life. I do think her end will be happy though.

[littlebird_]

As far as Sansa's marital and/or romantic prospects... whoever makes her happy will make me happy too. I think she would be happiest back at Winterfell

I agree, that is where she wants to return, she doesn't have any ambitions nor does she want to be married again, I think she would be more than happy just to go home without having to play any game and/or marry to secure an alliance

The eventual fate of the riverlands and the Tullys is something that I'm very intrigued by, especially after the Frey takeover of Riverrun. I could see it going either way, but I have a lot of confidence in the Sansa of Riverrun theory for the moment.

That's interesting, I never considered Riverrun for the immediate future, the Vale seems to be where her arc is set but as you say of her uncle does come to the Vale maybe he will have the idea of using Sansa as the heir to reclaim Riverrun.

In any case, I'm one of those who theorize that Alayne Stone will remain Alayne Stone for the rest of her life. I do think her end will be happy though.

I kind of wish this were true, she would be happy as Alayne I think, if only she could also be minus a creepy father but I am not sure where that leaves her and her arc for the rest of the books.

[Alexia]

In any case, I'm one of those who theorize that Alayne Stone will remain Alayne Stone for the rest of her life. I do think her end will be happy though.

For curiosity's sake, why do you theorize this? Its one that I acknowledge as a legitimate possibility but don't really think will happen, primarily because I think that we are seeing the death of the Old Guard and the formation of the next generation's political players, complete with some very powerful feuds and hatreds.

I agree that I think she will have some sort of happy ending.

[Podrick + Arya = Win]

She needs to be Sansa Stark for Harry the Heir to claim Winterfell. So LF will probably try to have Rickon murdered.

If Sansa still doesn't have the guts to do something about it at that point, gah... I know her worshippers will find an excuse for her.