[ADWD Spoilers] Speculation About the Winds of Winter

[alpha5099]

There's almost no chance of it, but a part of me would like Jon to be just straight up dead. No coming back, he's dead, deal with it. I was heartbroken reading that chapter, and it just feels like it'll cheapen that if he's brought back.

[Fat Walda's Paramour]

-Jon comes back to life. Somehow. He wargs into Ghost as he is being stabbed, his body is taken for dead. Ghost dies to bring him back to life, warging back into his body when it is resurrected from the dead, most likely by The Red Priestess but maybe the Watchmen set his corpse on fire and he emerges reborn at that point as a happy accident? Doubt it, for that would mean it would happen right away in Winds, and I'd image Martin will draw this out and milk it for a bit. I'd guess he's brought to Dragonstone, that is unless the Tyrells truly own it now. Red Mel getting there would be logistically tough, but say: She takes Jon's body by ship to Dragonstone to resurrect him. Ghost (warged by Jon) comes along and brings Longclaw. Mel brings him back to life. He is Azor Ahai. I don't think Jon's dead. I really don't.

-And him being in Dragonstone geographically makes it easier for him to meet up with Dany and become the rider of Rhaegal, this book or the next.

-Tyrion and Dany will meet up and she will like him and take him into her service. He will ride the dragon Viserion. He's Aerys's son.

-While Jon's down in Dragonstone getting resurrected and whatnot, some asshole's going to blow the Horn and The Wall will come tumbling down. Others all over the place.

-Aegon is Rhaegar's son. But not a true dragon. Rhaegar knew he was not the promised prince. That's why he felt the need to impregnate Lyanna Stark and fulfill the prophecy. Aegon will do something stupid and probably get himself killed or just screw everything up so Dany has to clean up his mess.

-Dany will be in Westeros by the middle of the book. At least I really really hope so.

-Dany will either burn the Dothraki or make them join her. She has to go back to go forward. Either bring the Dothraki or kill them.

-She'll land in the South and take Kings Landing first. For she has to go south before she can go north. North is where the real war is.

-Ramsey's full of shit. There's "truth to it," but most is malarkey. Mance killed Roose Bolton and many North men left. Ramsey's bunkered up in Winterfell and knows that there is no legitimacy to his claim if he isn't married to "Arya Stark" so he desperately send a letter to Snow asking to send Arya back. Otherwise he's done. He obviously either has Mance as a prisoner or one of his spear wives, for he knows a lot about Stannis and his sword and all that fun stuff.

- I think Stannis takes the black and becomes the 1000th Lord Commander after whoever succeeds Snow dies.

-I love this idea and want to get onboard with it. As Stannis said in SoS: "This is the enemy I was born to fight."

[Sherrit]

The problem I have with Jon going into Ghost was the whole thing with Sixskins. He told us right at the beginning you can die and warg yourself into an animal, but over time you become less of a man and more of the animal.

Plus, Jon doesn't know how to invoke warging like Bran. He's never went into Ghost's skin purposely, just let it happen in his dreams. So he doesn't have any experience, really. And in the last moments, is he really thinking "I have to warg into Ghost so I live through him!" ? He doesn't even know that it's possible and is not thinking rationally.

So I don't take to the "in Ghost" Theory. It has to do something with Mel. Has to.

[StarkBlack21]

-Jon comes back to life. Somehow. He wargs into Ghost as he is being stabbed, his body is taken for dead. Ghost dies to bring him back to life, warging back into his body when it is resurrected from the dead, most likely by The Red Priestess but maybe the Watchmen set his corpse on fire and he emerges reborn at that point as a happy accident? Doubt it, for that would mean it would happen right away in Winds, and I'd image Martin will draw this out and milk it for a bit. I'd guess he's brought to Dragonstone, that is unless the Tyrells truly own it now. Red Mel getting there would be logistically tough, but say: She takes Jon's body by ship to Dragonstone to resurrect him. Ghost (warged by Jon) comes along and brings Longclaw. Mel brings him back to life. He is Azor Ahai. I don't think Jon's dead. I really don't.

-And him being in Dragonstone geographically makes it easier for him to meet up with Dany and become the rider of Rhaegal, this book or the next.

-Tyrion and Dany will meet up and she will like him and take him into her service. He will ride the dragon Viserion. He's Aerys's son.

-While Jon's down in Dragonstone getting resurrected and whatnot, some asshole's going to blow the Horn and The Wall will come tumbling down. Others all over the place.

-Aegon is Rhaegar's son. But not a true dragon. Rhaegar knew he was not the promised prince. That's why he felt the need to impregnate Lyanna Stark and fulfill the prophecy. Aegon will do something stupid and probably get himself killed or just screw everything up so Dany has to clean up his mess.

-Dany will be in Westeros by the middle of the book. At least I really really hope so.

-Dany will either burn the Dothraki or make them join her. She has to go back to go forward. Either bring the Dothraki or kill them.

-She'll land in the South and take Kings Landing first. For she has to go south before she can go north. North is where the real war is.

-Ramsey's full of shit. There's "truth to it," but most is malarkey. Mance killed Roose Bolton and many North men left. Ramsey's bunkered up in Winterfell and knows that there is no legitimacy to his claim if he isn't married to "Arya Stark" so he desperately send a letter to Snow asking to send Arya back. Otherwise he's done. He obviously either has Mance as a prisoner or one of his spear wives, for he knows a lot about Stannis and his sword and all that fun stuff.

-I love this idea and want to get onboard with it. As Stannis said in SoS: "This is the enemy I was born to fight."

Whoa! I actually could see Stannis becoming the 100th commander of the NW. That actually would make sense and fit his character. Very nice. I think Stannis will survive the series. There's something real honorable about his character. I think this book was Stannis' coming out party. I wouldn't mind if Stannis became king. Because I think he's learned a lot and changed a few of his views. Remember the old Stannis would rather drive a stake through his eye then offer pardons to men to join him. But slowly, very slowly, he's seen his way of doing things isn't always right.

At the very least, Davos better live. Martin better not kill Davos, that man is a loyal soldier. I wouldn't mind if Dany died. lol

[Fat Walda's Paramour]

At the very least, Davos better live. Martin better not kill Davos, that man is a loyal soldier. I wouldn't mind if Dany died. lol

Good call. Davos and Rickon in Winterfell with Davos holding the castle for him while the Others attack the North could be very great.

[Davos' Middle Finger]

From what I gathered from Varamyr's POV, the process of becoming the animal in Second Life is a gradual one. If Jon were revived relatively quickly he would retain his human personality.

And remember, in ACOK Orell was taken by surprise and killed quickly, and yet he still made it into his eagle.

[Millardkillmoore]

Prologue

I've got two guesses:

1) The TRUE battle of Winterfell (there's no way Ramsay's letter was true. Too many holes in his story.) The PoV character will be Steelshanks Walton, who will die with most of the other Bolton forces.

2) Cersei's trial. The PoV character will be the faith's champion. My guess is either Lancel or Sandor.

Meereen

Hizdahr dies somehow. He needs to die to make room for a husband for Dany who has an actual personality.

Barristan/Tyrion/Victarion/Tattered Prince forces will crush the Yunkai'i.

Dany will kill Mago and Jhaqo, take their Khalasar and join the battle.

She roots out the Harpy (The Green Grace).

She'll take all of her forces and leave via her new fleet. They'll land in Westeros at the very end.

The North

Davos brings Rickon to Stannis, who makes Rickon the new lord of Winterfell. The other Northern lords bend the knee and acknowledge Stannis as king. Together, they wipe out the Boltons and the Northern Freys.

Stannis leads his forces to defend the wall and sends the Manderly fleet to rescue everyone from Hardhome.

The Others begin their attack and the Wildlings/Stannis/Northernor/NW alliance has to fight them. There will undoubtedly be plenty of infighting over what to do with the Wildlings.

The South

The Lannister/Tyrell alliance is shattered. Dorne declares for "Aegon." Huge battles leave both sides badly weakened.

LF leads the Vale to conquer the weakened South.

Ending

Somebody blows the horn of winter and the wall comes tumbling down. All of Westeros is devastated by the wars and is ready to be slaughtered by the Others.

[Sherrit]

From what I gathered from Varamyr's POV, the process of becoming the animal in Second Life is a gradual one. If Jon were revived relatively quickly he would retain his human personality.

And remember, in ACOK Orell was taken by surprise and killed quickly, and yet he still made it into his eagle.

I was under the impression that Orell died and Varamyr took his eagle.

And my main point was that Jon doesn't know how. Varamyr even acknowledged in his chapter that Jon had the gift but was clueless on using it - has had no training. Plus he doesn't know about the Second Life thing anyway.

[Sansouci]

Anybody have any ideas on how Arya will be reincorporated into the story given the time disparities of her storyline compared to everyone else?

Perhaps Arya will find herself a member of Danys' force on its return to Westeros?

[Sansouci]

I was under the impression that Orell died and Varamyr took his eagle.

And my main point was that Jon doesn't know how. Varamyr even acknowledged in his chapter that Jon had the gift but was clueless on using it - has had no training. Plus he doesn't know about the Second Life thing anyway.

[/quote

Perhaps Bran can aid him (Jon) through his connection to nature, as he aided Theon in the weirwood by reminding him of his true name.

[Sansouci]

There's almost no chance of it, but a part of me would like Jon to be just straight up dead. No coming back, he's dead, deal with it. I was heartbroken reading that chapter, and it just feels like it'll cheapen that if he's brought back.

The death is cliff-hangered and there is constant mention of Jon's unrealized spiritual potential. Nothing creates transcendence like dying and resurrecting.

[Sansouci]

The problem I have with Jon going into Ghost was the whole thing with Sixskins. He told us right at the beginning you can die and warg yourself into an animal, but over time you become less of a man and more of the animal.

Plus, Jon doesn't know how to invoke warging like Bran. He's never went into Ghost's skin purposely, just let it happen in his dreams. So he doesn't have any experience, really. And in the last moments, is he really thinking "I have to warg into Ghost so I live through him!" ? He doesn't even know that it's possible and is not thinking rationally.

So I don't take to the "in Ghost" Theory. It has to do something with Mel. Has to.

No doubt Mel could heal him.

[Fat Walda's Paramour]

Having had a night to sleep on Dance with Dragons, I've got some new ideas for what could happen in Winds of Winter.

Expanding on a few predictions I made yesterday after finishing the book:

Ramsey's letter has "truth to it," but is mostly malarkey. There's no way he "just" captured Mance. "Abel can take care of himself." Mance at least killed some very important people, like Roose, before either escaping or being killed. Many Northmen leave, not feeling as loyal to Ramsey. Stannis's forces are not dead but not strong either. Ramsey probably caught one of Mance's women and tortured all that info in the letter about Stannis and sent of this bs letter as a last resort. For he knows that there is no legitimacy to his claim if he isn't married to "Arya Stark." Otherwise he's done.

I don't think Jon's dead. I think Mel and Ghost will take him to Dragonstone to be resurrect him as Azor Ahai. How's she going to get the body away? Because after his death, someone who blow the Horn and the Wall will come tumbling down and she'll leave in the chaos as the Watch fights their final battle.

Go back to go forward, east to go west. Dany will have Drogon fire the fuck out of Khal Jhago, killing him. The rest of his clan will swear loyalty to Dany. The Dothraki respect strength. They’ll follow her back to Meereen, where Barristan will have locked shit down. She will spend her time there preparing to set sail for Westeros. Gathering her forces, whatnot.

Tyrion turns the Second Sons to Dany’s cause, presents himself. She’ll recognize him as the dwarf whose life she saved. He’ll say who he really is. And she’ll accept him. I think Dany will really like Tyrion, and he’ll like her. He seems to truly admire what he hears of her, not looking to usurp or control her, but to serve her. And Tyrion will speak well of Jorah, saying he could’ve brought Tyrion to Cersai, who’d have made him a Lord, but he chose to go to Dany. He wanted her pardon. She’ll take him back.

Is Tyrion a Targ? Well, for the sake of hypothesizing, let’s assume he is. Assume Aerys raped/seduced his mom because Tywin was starting to think he was more powerful than the King, so this was Mad A’s way of saying no you’re not. Then he impregnated Tywin’s beloved wife with his own hideous dwarf bastard, killing Lady Lannister in the process. Tywin has to walk around pretending this insult from Aery’s is his son for the sake of house honor, until the day Aery’s son kills him. Explains Tywin's hatred/mistreatment of Tyrion a bit too. Tyrion’s Aunt said Tyrion was more like a son of Tywin than Jaime or Cersai. I don’t think that’s necessarily a sign that he’s Tywin’s blood son. Tyrion was giftedly brilliant so he learned how to become a Lannister by watching and observing his supposed father. Tywin was someone who grew up a joke and had to fight for everything he earned, despite the scorn of others. Same as Tyrion. And Tyrion is not without Lannister blood of course because his mother was a Lannister (Tywin’s first cousin, actually). Let’s assume this. So…

Will Tyrion ride a dragon? He probably knows more about Dragons (through reading) than most people in the world, so he will be very valuable to Dany. I say yes. I buy the wacky Tyrion’s a secret Targ theory. So, accepting that, we can assume that the chapter where he rides a dragon for the first time is going to be amazing. Which Dragon? My bet’s on Viserion. He’s crafty and smaller, digging holes for himself and what not. And it’s named after Viseryies. Viserys III, his namesake, was the weakingly of the pack when it comes to namesakes for the three dragons (the other being named after Khal Drago and Prince Rhaegar. The runt. A role Tyrion has played. And interestingly, Viserys II, a king Tyrion said he admired when talking to the Red Viper in SoS, was falsely accused of poisoning his brother. Hmm. Dany will trust him implacably after she sees him ride. She knows the dragon needs three heads, and only those destined to ride will be able to.

Speaking of which, what about Victorion and his horn? I don’t think he’s a rider. In fact, I think somehow he’s going to accidentally kill one of the dragons (Rhaegon), inflicting Dany’s wrath rather than an alliance. She kills Vic and Euron’s dead to her for sending him. Count out Iron Islands as an early supporter. For now, that is. (Good news for Asha and Theon.)

So Dany leaves for Westeros. With? Dothraki, Unsullied, Second Sons, Stormcrows, Serr Barristan Selmy and his small unit of knights, Jorah Mormount. And dragons. Two flown by Dany and Tyrion. So where do they land?

Dragonstone. It’s fitting, being the old Targ island and it’s geographical location being between Mereeen and Kingsland. What’s going on at Dragonstone? Red Mel is bringing John back to life. He’s Azor reborn. He awakens the Stone Dragon from under Dragonstone. He is the Third Dragon Head. He joins with Dany and Tryion. They ride for Kings Landing.

And attack. The Tyrells have two armies there as of the end of Dance with Dragons. Probably less now though, for they’ll be fighting Aegon in the Storm Lands. But the Lannister Amry (what’s left of it) will have left the River Lands, and will come to Kings Landing to defend Tonneman. The Dorthraki will meet them in the open field. The Unsullied will storm the city. Serr Barriston will lead the charge on the ground. He will fight valiantly and earn immortality with his heroic actions, then die with his sword in hand in a battle in which he won a great victory for his Queen. Like he always wanted. Plus they’ve got three dragons. They’ll take Kings Landing.

What about Littlefinger? What the hell is his plan? My guess, Littlefinger tries to marry Daenarys, promising the Vale, the North and maybe the river lands. He was planning for Daenarys arrival for a while. He knew she was coming back, and that she was the way he’d become King. Clever. What he didn’t foresee: the attack of The Others, which will wipe out the North first, then the Riverlands and The Vale as they march south until Dany and Jon meet them at the Trident when the final book starts or this one ends. To go north, you must journey south..

[Davos' Middle Finger]

I think that TWOW will be when Sansa takes down Littlefinger. My prediction on how the storyline will unfold:

-There will be a process of Sansa reclaiming her identity as a Stark. One of the main themes in TWOW will be Sansa and Arya's rediscoveries of their Stark identities, paralelling and contrasting with each other. AFFC/ADWD was when their identities were most submerged. This was represented by Sansa's chapters being called Alayne and Arya's called " Cat in the Canals/The Ugly Little Girl, etc." Sansa will start TWOW with her chapters being called " Alayne" and Arya's will be called " No One."

-Sansa will gradually begin to reclaim more and more of her Stark identity. She will also suspect Littlefinger of having poisoned Sweetrobin, who will die and begin to distrust him.

-The final straw will be that Sansa will learn that Littlefinger is planning to asassinate Rickon, who will be returned to the North, and possibly Jon as well when he is resurrected and if Robb's will becomes public. Both of those two are enormous threats to Littlefinger, since the existence of male Stark heirs ruins his plans to claim the North through Sansa, and for him to win the game of thrones he must remove all of the male Stark children.

-Of course, having been schooled well in subterfuge and plotting by her mentor, Sansa won't confront him or do anything directly at first. She'll pretend to be the meek, pliant Alayne, while secretly assembling a conspiracy to take Littlefinger down. We saw in AFFC that she has already begun to make new friends in the Vale, like Mya Stone (with whom Littlefinger's guard captain Lothor Brune is in love), and Myranda Royce (daughter of Nestor Royce, Littlefinger's most important ally among the Vale lords).

She will recruit more allies in TWOW, most importantly her betrothed Harry the Heir, who will now be Lord Harrold of the Vale with Sweetrobin dead. Others may include Bronze Yohn Royce (whom, ironically, Littlefinger himself told her was his most implacable enemy among the Vale lords), and the Blackfish if he ends up in the Vale. She may use Mya and Myranda to turn Brune and Nestor against Littlefinger, or at least put them in a state of mind where they are willing to turn on him under the right circumstances. For example, she can use Myranda to carry a message to Nestor that Sansa will get Harry to confirm LF's installment of him as Lord of the Gates. But the key will be Harry. Since he is not a minor then Littlefinger will no longer be Lord Protector of the Vale, will have no legal authority there, and will need Sansa controlling Harry for him. But what Sansa will really be doing is winning Harry over to be her ally alone and not Littlefinger's.

- The climax of this will come at her wedding to Harry. Her reclaiming of her Stark identity will be complete, symbolized by her identity as a Stark being presented to the world at the wedding. At the wedding she will turn the tables on Littlefinger, revealing his murder of Jon and Lysa Arryn to the assembled lords and knights of the Vale. LF will be exposed for the snake he is, and the scheming and politicking skills he himself taught Sansa will result in his utter ruin.

And it will be glorious.

[chrisdaw]

My speculation;

Brienne is leading Jamie to Stoneheart, Beric and Thoros. Instead of killing him outright, they'll make a deal with him, and as Victarion's red priest healed his hand, they'll restore Jamies, the price for which will be he must use it to kill Cersei, a price he'll gladly pay.

[Werthead]

Lancel being the Faith's Champion and getting splattered by Gregorstein is something that is 150% pure GRRM. I like it :)

[unprophecied]

Perhaps Arya will find herself a member of Danys' force on its return to Westeros?

If Arya is sent to kill one of the other POV characters, Dany does seem like the most conceivable. Arya legitimately does not know her. How she might then be dissuaded of course, I have no idea.

[Selmy]

I think there will be some sort of battle in front of Meereen.

I think Victarion is going to steal and just sort of sneak off with a dragon.

I think Dany is going to come back and be pissed about her missing dragon. She makes off across land with her new khalasar.

Jon is either not dead or is somehow reborn.

Stannis isn't dead. Ramsay was lying. But I think Stannis has gone somewhere else.

Arya leaves the Faceless Men but isn't fully trained.

I also think the Wall comes down in WoW and the Nights Watch ceases to exist.

[Daemrion]

My speculation;

Brienne is leading Jamie to Stoneheart, Beric and Thoros. Instead of killing him outright, they'll make a deal with him, and as Victarion's red priest healed his hand, they'll restore Jamies, the price for which will be he must use it to kill Cersei, a price he'll gladly pay.

Beric is really dead and gone. I wonder if Brynden Tully will find UnCat.

[Vikingkingq]

A few points:

1. I think I need to modify my prediction a little: "To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward you must go back, and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow." Ok, we've gone east, I think the going back refers to go Dany getting a khalassar, and at some point Dany has to go to Asshai. Maybe the north to south refers to Dany arriving up North, or heading up north after she lands on Dragonstone?

2. I think Winds of Winter will be a bit more battle-y as we get closer to the finale. Resolving the Battle for Winterfell in the prologue would be a good way to clear those decks, I imagine we'll see a breaking of the Siege of Meereen early on, and I think the Wall coming down at the end paralleled with the arrival of Dany is right.

3. I think Littlefinger/the Vale/Sansa have to head North, not South, in order for the pieces to draw closer together - although I have no idea whether/how Bran gets to Winterfell or whether he just watches/talks through the heartstree. Also, there's something dramatically really interesting about multiple Starks all claiming Winterfell - Littlefinger backing Sansa, Stannis backing Rickon, Robb's will showing up as Jon is reborn.

4. I think DMF is right about Sansa and Arya's arcs. I think Arya's arc will involve meeting up with Nymeria and warging undoing some of the mental conditioning of the Faceless. As for Sansa's wedding...at this point, just reading the word wedding freaks me out. You'd think people would stop showing up to these things given how they always end with horror.

5. Werthead - I think a Lancel v. Gregorstein trial would be great. I still stand by my prediction that Cersei sends Gregorstein to kill the Tyrells at council/court and Tommen gets in the way of Gregorstein's swing at Margaery.