[ADwD Spoilers] Well That Was Disappointing

[The Stranger]

Yes. Thank god the English Tolkein (the one with a J in front of his two Rs), did not allow himself to be this badly flummoxed by the Rivendelese Knot, or the Fellowship would never have formed, much less reached Moria.

I'm pretty sure he solved the Mordorese knot by realizing "And then Gollum bites off the Ring and falls into the fucking volcano while dancing?! Booo-yaaah!"

[ultima]

After reading the ADWD, I also feel very much disappointed with the book.

I can even say that it was bit boring! Lot of unnecessary talks and quotes. Only towards the end of the book its better. When i came to know about the title as "A Dance with Dragons", i really expected some "dance" by the dragons either human or otherwise!! :fencing:

But there is no such thing in this book! Two of the dragons are tied up and one other is somewhere else!

I think the entire series could have been completed in 5 books. Its not right to unnecessarily dragging it for commercial gains! And not to mention the years the readers need to wait for it. After near 6 years, this book comes out and result in disappointment. In comparing Steven Erikson completes the entire 10 book series in a decade or so, still keeping it interesting!

Martin is one of the wonderful writers who is good at story telling, but he should avoid playing with reader's patience and unnecessarily prolonging the series. He should try to come out with a book every year or at least 2 years! Hope he does not take another decade just for the other 2 books! (assuming its 7 book series still)

[Sydney Losstarot]

Hi everyone!

To all those that keep saying that set up and atmosphere are more important than plot, I'd like to remind you of the first book in the series, A Game of Thrones. Being the first book, it HAD to set up atmosphere, characters, and world. And yet no one complains about its pace. Why?

That's because it was an almost perfect combination of set up AND plot. That's why.

Also, I notice that almost everyone liked Theon's arc best. Why is that again?

That's because it's both full of exquisite and remarkable characterisation and atmosphere AND plot. His chapters are the ones who touched me the most, an excellent surprise.

Also, I think that GRRM simply dismissing amazon reviews as being nothing more than anonymous trolling is a disservice to his fans. Most of the reviews over there are based on reasonably constructed arguments. I'm personnally glad that the book is a commercial success, if only for the fact that it probably means that he will continue the series, and is a strong motivator. Just like I have a feeling that his series being ported to TV by HBO is most definitely one of the reasons we finally got DwD.

That being said, the writing is still exquisite, and some moments really shocked me in a good way, the first one of these being the Janos Slynt execution.

Also, when you wait 6 years for a book, and it's so BIG, you naturally expect THINGS TO HAPPEN.

[Branna]

It's hard to say; on one hand, I enjoyed reading the book thoroughly. On the other hand, I felt that there were too many completely unresolved plotlines. Yes, I know it's all a part of a bigger story, but Storm and Feast each still resolved a lot more. A lot of plotlines just stopped halfway through.

I suppose while I'm bitching, I can also say....more Westeros, please! I just want everyone to go back to Westeros, as soon as possible. I wanted Meereen to burn to the ground completely so we wouldn't have to hear any more of their stupid names and stupid personalities. I can't relate to the Meerenese, and honestly don't care about any of those characters. I was disappointed in Dany because she lost track of her original goals (but I was very happy when she climbed on Drogon and left).

The other thing that diappointed me was Quentyn/Griff/Victarion...blah blah blah. I don't want any more new characters! Less new boring characters and more of the interesting ones...Bran. Arya. The Starks....the Lannisters.

That is all. Other than those complaints I was thrilled with the book, and will be rereading it to catch the things I missed. And, Jon is NOT dead!

[Recently]

Book is well written, slightly better than AFFC, but everything related to Dany/Meereen and anyone attempting to reach Dany/Meereen slowed to a fucking crawl. Literally nothing of significance happened.

Tyrion could have literally arrived at pentos, hired some sellswords, and taken a ship directly to Meereen. 1-2 chapters tops

Quentyn could not have existed at all. A random nameless grunt soldier could have accidentally left the door open to where the dragons were being kept and let them escape. 0 chapters lol

Dany could have randomly tried riding drogo and got swept away with him.

Victarion could easily be pilaging the mander still instead of pilaging random boats on his way to Meereen.

Everything along the wall and in the North however was very well written and very interesting. The griff stuff while somewhat random was also a nice change of pace from the dany/Meereen bog. I'm rooting for Aegon at this point, hope he gives dany the finger when she lands on westeros and says fuck you, you took too long go back to whatever shithole you came from. Leave your dragons though.

[Zeromus]

Too many yes men, and too much incentive (author access mayhaps) to get along.

Aye. I get the impression that it's these people who run the forum. And it's a shame 'cuz shameless kiss-assery won't improve the quality of the books.

[Flayed_man]

I must also lend my voice to this being a disappointing book, and I feel seriously concerned for the series overall.

I felt like this wasn't a book but a 1st draft screen play, (book 5 can easily, and cheaply be put on film).

From a technical stand point it was well written. One or two sections made me laugh, one or two made me go 'oohhhh', but thats hardly impressive for 960 pages.

But over all I'm shocked it took 6 years to get us almost no where.

There was a time I was worried that "what if Martin, god forbid, passes away before finishing?". Now be honest I would feel bad for the man, but not really care that series won't end. At this time I can't recommend ASOFAI anymore...why do that to friends and family.

(I haven't read all the forum post, so if any of my opinions are repeated elsewhere..oops)

[Shargon]

I'm now invested and will probably buy whatever Martin sells, in hardcover, whenever the next seven books are released. However, after AFFC and DWD, I can no longer in good conscience recommend the series to others. Unless the quality returns to the standard of SOS, it's just not worth getting into.

[cteresa]

Now this wouldn't make them very critical, now would it. Too many yes men, and too much incentive (author access mayhaps) to get along. Bit disappointing really, especially from some of the reviewers who post here.

That is unkind (and that is my kindest interpretation. I could call it other things). If anybody hangs around one particular fandom investing time and effort into analyzing it for 10+ years often it´s because they really really LOVE the source material - and maybe even the worst ASOIAF book is still better than practically everything published as fantasy this year. If you want to find a bias to explain why many oldtime fans are sort of OK with ADWD there you have it, without needing to suggest anything else.

[Uruk-hai]

Boy, am I dumb. I didn't realize that so many people know how most of the plotlines play out in the end and here I am in the dark as to what's "supposed" to happen. I mean, how could I not know that Tyrion was supposed to meet Dany in this book? That Dany had to sail for Westeros in this one? That Tyrion was supposed to help Barristan order his battle? That Victarion was supposed to meet/fuck/marry/kill Dany in ADWD? That the Battle for Winterfell was supposed to be decided in Dance?

These were all "supposed" to happen, right? Has to be, since there are dozens (hundreds by now, I guess) of posts saying so.

Me? When I read fiction, I have my guesses where the plot is going as I read but I sure don't get pissed solely because the author goes in a different direction. Hell, there's no way I could've predicted at the end of AGOT where we'd be at the end of friggin' ACOK - to say nothing of how much things have changed from where I thought they'd be by the end of the 5th book.

There are many valid criticisms of ADWD - some I agree with, some I don't. But the constant "____ was supposed to meet/kill/journey to/go out to dinner with ____" thing is a little whacked IMO.

[QueenB]

What I found most annoying is that the only reason AFfC and ADwD are two books is that there was supposedly that much stuff to cover and write about. That is simply not the case! ...

Agree with your post, i waited all these years patiently (ok maybe not) and was very disappointed. It's not a bad book but considering this is the 5/7 book I expected the story to move a bit. Especially regarding Dany/Essos development... Also introducing new POVs and characters at this i felt was a bit unnecessary. It kinda reminds me of 2nd series Lost, where whole new group of people appeared on the other side of the island.

The only story arc i felt moved a bit was Arya, I could have done with less Reek/Quentin and more Jaime/Mel. I think the book will grow on me on my 2nd/3rd reread, it does reveal bits and pieces on past events but I expected a lot more than this.

[ENikolai]

I feel like I spent almost the entirety of the book waiting for people to reach certain destinations. At the beginning of their chapters I'd check their progress on the maps, and be consistently disappointed. "One more centimeter, oh good..." For some reason I dislike reading about almost anything that takes place in Mereen or elsewhere on the eastern continent. I'm not invested in the eastern continent, and couldn't care less if it was utterly destroyed. The only redeeming chapters from the eastern continent were the ones from Barristan Selmy's POV, though I wish he had chosen to support King Stannis instead of Dany.

I primarily enjoyed the chapters that took place in northern Westeros, and especially the POVs of Davos Seaworth, Jon Snow, and Theon Greyjoy (well, I dislike Theon himself immensely, but love that he's at the center of the events that I care the most about).

GRRM really loves shitting on Eddard Stark. In addition to being betrayed, wasting away diseased in a cell, having to lie and renounce his honor, being publicly humiliated, being executed for crimes he did not commit, having his family sword melted down, having his family home ruined, having his family broken apart and partly killed, we've learned that his remains will likely be fed to Lady Glover's dogs. That's nice. :frown5:

[Podrick + Arya = Win]

That is unkind (and that is my kindest interpretation. I could call it other things). If anybody hangs around one particular fandom investing time and effort into analyzing it for 10+ years often it´s because they really really LOVE the source material - and maybe even the worst ASOIAF book is still better than practically everything published as fantasy this year. If you want to find a bias to explain why many oldtime fans are sort of OK with ADWD there you have it, without needing to suggest anything else.

If ASoIaF is really the best out of all the fantasy that is being published today, I shudder to think about what kind of tripe is being published nowadays. Probably explains why I haven't been able to find any decent fantasy books.

[Recently]

Boy, am I dumb. I didn't realize that so many people know how most of the plotlines play out in the end and here I am in the dark as to what's "supposed" to happen. I mean, how could I not know that Tyrion was supposed to meet Dany in this book? That Dany had to sail for Westeros in this one? That Tyrion was supposed to help Barristan order his battle? That Victarion was supposed to meet/fuck/marry/kill Dany in ADWD? That the Battle for Winterfell was supposed to be decided in Dance?

These were all "supposed" to happen, right? Has to be, since there are dozens (hundreds by now, I guess) of posts saying so.

Me? When I read fiction, I have my guesses where the plot is going as I read but I sure don't get pissed solely because the author goes in a different direction. Hell, there's no way I could've predicted at the end of AGOT where we'd be at the end of friggin' ACOK - to say nothing of how much things have changed from where I thought they'd be by the end of the 5th book.

There are many valid criticisms of ADWD - some I agree with, some I don't. But the constant "____ was supposed to meet/kill/journey to/go out to dinner with ____" thing is a little whacked IMO.

True, but wait until the next book comes out. The "____ was supposed to meet/kill/journey to/go out to dinner with ____" that we expect will eventually happen, then you will look back at this book and think to yourself, so what exactly was all that filler for?

Now if Martin throws us for a curve-ball and instead kills dany off in the next book unexpectedly, and shatters all our expectations i'd take back all my complaints. But its pretty obvious that certain things are destined to happen (tyrion/victarion meeting dany, dany eventually leaving meereen, some sort of confrontation between the others and humanity, westeroes being united under someone, etc) and either no progress or very little progress was made towards these expected outcomes.

[Blaine]

Ya, here's my dream Chapter 1 of the next book:

"Hey Khal Jhaqo. Long time no see."

"Hey Khaleesi. I've decided to join you in order to give you more soldiers and then never speak again."

"Good. Let's go back to Mereen."

<a paragraph about riding without talking follows>

"Wow. What happened here?"

"Hey there. My name's Tyrion and this is my friend Victarion. He just smashed the slavers' fleet and I got all the sellswords to kill the besieging army and join up with your guys. Unfortunately, your dragons accidentally burned down the city so we can't stay here anymore"

"Well shit. What do I do now?"

"We have a big fleet and your nephew's alive and he just started a war in Westeros. Why don't we go there?"

"That's a long way. How are we going to feed all my soldiers on the trip?"

"Hi there, I'm with the Lamb People. We just showed up with all that food you ordered."

"Ha! Who says I didn't do one thing right? Load it up and let's go"

Wow, it's funny because your dream Chapter 1 is exactly the same as this nightmare I have where GRRM forgets how to write.

[Goral]

Boy, am I dumb. (...) I mean, how could I not know that Tyrion was supposed to meet Dany in this book? (...)

You don't have to be so honest. It looks to me that even if Martin would have added gummi bears and people would be enraged you would still defend him. For all I care Tyrion could not have met with Dany as long as something actually would happen. And if nothing would happen (as we've seen in ADWD) then it would be better to trim some of the content instead. Yes, it's Martin's world and story. Yes he can do with it whatever he wants to. But you can't expect that everyone will kiss his *** whenever he writes a sentence. It's obvious that Martin purposefully prolonged the story (if only for the fact he was planning 5 books but then he added 50 new characters since the books sold too well and it would be a shame to finish them too early) and in this almost nothing happens. HBO will have a much easier job with showing this part of the story than with Game of Thrones were they had to throw out many important dialogues since over half of the book is pointless rambling. In the next book we will have new characters again while almost none of the old POVs died and series will be prolonged again. This is ridiculous.

Anyway, there is an obvious pattern here. People who have waited 11 years for Tyrion's, Jon's, Bran's, Daenerys' comeback are generally more satisfied with the book since they were waiting so long they would worship anything by that time as long as it would be in Westeros world since it still would be better than nothing (which they had for 6 years). Most of new ASOIF readers, who read whole saga (i.e. 5 volumes) only recently and have a more clear-headed approach are disappointed and see how much worse this book is than previous ones, especially first 3. Just look at the posts.

[cteresa]

If ASoIaF is really the best out of all the fantasy that is being published today, I shudder to think about what kind of tripe is being published nowadays. Probably explains why I haven't been able to find any decent fantasy books.

The first three books, on writing and characterization and plotting and scope of ambition, yes, IMO they are pretty much the best fantasy (Epic, high or low, or whatever, of a specific sword and magic type of fantasy) being published in the last 20 years. IMO. I am picky.

About you not being able to find any decent fantasy books, I am not sure why you read ASOIAF then if all fantasy books you read are not decent. But I love recommending books, and your declaration is a challenge. What are your favorite (non-fantasy) books, authors, genres, classics you had to read but were good, what is your thing?

[Podrick + Arya = Win]

The first three books, on writing and characterization and plotting and scope of ambition, yes, IMO they are pretty much the best fantasy (Epic, high or low, or whatever, of a specific sword and magic type of fantasy) being published in the last 20 years. IMO. I am picky.

About you not being able to find any decent fantasy books, I am not sure why you read ASOIAF then if all fantasy books you read are not decent. But I love recommending books, and your declaration is a challenge. What are your favorite (non-fantasy) books, authors, genres, classics you had to read but were good, what is your thing?

Well, to be fair, I thought AGOT was very good and balanced. But the ones after it, not so much.

In fantasy, my favourites are LOTR and HP. David Gemmell's Legend is good, but that's the only one of his fantasy works I like. Doesn't hold a candle to either LOTR/HP though.

Historical Fiction, Bernard Cornwell's Warlord (Arthur) trilogy, Conn Iggulden's Caesar series (4 books), Tim Severin's Viking trilogy, Valerio Massimo Manfredi's Spartan, Last Legion, and the Alexander trilogy. David Gemmell's Troy series is good, but he overuses a cliche from Legend.

Suggestions?

[Jon AS]

Suggestions?

Check out the Literature subforum in Misc.

[Ser Grifter]

Well, to be fair, I thought AGOT was very good and balanced. But the ones after it, not so much.

In fantasy, my favourites are LOTR and HP. David Gemmell's Legend is good, but that's the only one of his fantasy works I like. Doesn't hold a candle to either LOTR/HP though.

Historical Fiction, Bernard Cornwell's Warlord (Arthur) trilogy, Conn Iggulden's Caesar series (4 books), Tim Severin's Viking trilogy, Valerio Massimo Manfredi's Spartan, Last Legion, and the Alexander trilogy. David Gemmell's Troy series is good, but he overuses a cliche from Legend.

Suggestions?

I take it you're read Cornwell's other books? Pretty much all brilliant - love the Archer trilogy