[ADwD Spoilers] Well That Was Disappointing

[Volderon]

So I finished ADwD a couple days ago, I was savouring it. Today I picked up the "newer" covers of the books because hey, I need them to match :-p.

I started on a series re-read today with AGOT and honestly. What happened? The chapters are maybe 7-8 pages long, concise, moves the plot forward and with a clear purpose. In AFFC and DANCE we have chapters that go on for 20 pages or more with descriptions about food and clothing.

In the Winterfell feast we have "Benjen Stark dipped his onion in gravy. It crunched." In DANCE we had "Tyrion ate a bowl of blueberries that were small, juicy and succulent, they were also blue and he used his fingers to pick them up to put them in his mouth, he then washed it down with wine as red as blood. He then put down his glass with his left hand and wiped his mouth with his right."

I mean, what? Really? Don't get me wrong, descriptions are great, but too much and it gets ridiculous and takes you OUT of the story.

That being said, I liked DANCE if only for it being a new ASOIAF book. If only it had a climax.

[Nukelavee]

Well, I'm disappointed right now with it, but I expected that to happen. Too much of the same idea as Christmas morning after the last present was opened, as a kid.

To a point, sure, it's GRRM's fault, it's his damn story, after all. More, tho, I blame the editing - his editors did a craptastic job. The number of times the same words or phrases were used, over and over and over again...too much boiler plating.

Things I really disliked - Dany/Mereen. Not just because Dany herself was still boring as hell, but because, well, it's a lot of time covered by 4 different PoV's, with a lot of pointless carrying on. Plus, so much devoted to Quentyn, only to have him die. And nothing happened I didn't expect, in general.

Contrast that to Brienne - one of THE tensest cliff-hangers ever, resolved with "The Lady Brienne is here".

Basically, the book is very uneven in quality, but I seriously think the editing was more at fault than the actual writing.

Of course, I'll save any real judgement until after I do a re-read in a month or so.

[Hodor for King]

My problem with Dance (and Feast too I guess) is that the delicate balance between world-building and moving the plot along that we had in the first three books broke down, and we got tons and tons of world building with very little movement in the main story arc. Obviously, some description of people, places, and events is welcome in an epic series. There is also room for side adventures that only tangentially relate to the main plot arc. Obviously if the books were all plot and little character-building or world-building, then ASoIaF would not be the series that it is.

However, the narrative can also get lost in all the side quests and descriptions of places and people that we will never see again. There needs to be a balance between advancing the plot and building a rich world with well-devoloped characters. The first three novels struck this balance very well I thought. In Storm of Swords the plot moved along at a nice pace, but the novel also managed to do things like describing the wildling culture in intricate detail. In AFfC and ADwD I feel like we've gotten bogged down in all these places and side adventures that are ultimately unimportant to the larger story. Some of them are very fascinating (Arya with the Faceless Men), and some are not all that interesting (we can all name a few).

I am perfectly fine with reading some of these adventures, but it is a little disappointing to read almost 2,0000 pages in the middle of a series and feel like the plot barely advanced at all. I think one of GRRM's flaws is that he is not content to let anything happen off-screen. The Kingsmoot on the Iron Islands, Brienne's journey through the riverlands, and some other arcs in these novels felt a little bit like DVD extras that somehow made it into the main show.

However, I am optimistic about the pacing of the last two novels. I think it can be difficult to write the middle books in the series, and figuring out how to position the characters for the endgame is surely quite tricky. Martin has had his ending in mind for years, so I actually think that the last two books will be paced more like the first three, and I think they will actually come out in just a few years for the same reason.

[Volderon]

I am perfectly fine with reading some of these adventures, but it is a little disappointing to read almost 2,0000 pages in the middle of a series and feel like the plot barely advanced at all. I think one of GRRM's flaws is that he is not content to let anything happen off-screen. The Kingsmoot on the Iron Islands, Brienne's journey through the riverlands, and some other arcs in these novels felt a little bit like DVD extras that somehow made it into the main show.

However, I am optimistic about the pacing of the last two novels. I think it can be difficult to write the middle books in the series, and figuring out how to position the characters for the endgame is surely quite tricky. Martin has had his ending in mind for years, so I actually think that the last two books will be paced more like the first three, and I think they will actually come out in just a few years for the same reason.

DVD extras were right bang on. Perfect wording.

I'm going to do something akin to blasphemy here and compare it to Harry Potter. HP books 4 and 5 were the middle books for that series as well and I remember J.K. Rowling saying that she had a hell of a time with Goblet. But just because you had a hard time with it doesn't mean it shouldn't move the plot forward. Books 4 and 5 of HP moved the plot tremendously.

I guess the only difference would be that in books 4 and 5 the action was just starting to ramp up instead of with the first three ASOIAF books where a war has been fought already but I mean, none of the HP books were bad...

[Ygritte's fur]

I didn't wait six years and I still thought the book was lame.

I've read all five books in the last six or seven weeks (I'm nursing a newborn; and note to GrRM re Gilly on the ship: breastmilk poop doesnt sink; it smells like apricots). I never heard of this series till I watched the HBO series, so I can compare without letting unreachable expectations get in the way.

While reading ASOS I was afraid to take my trash out at night. I saw things in the shadows. If I wasn't reading, I was thinking about the story. AFOC was weak in the beginning an the editing was atrocious (I cannot believe it was actually ever copyedited) but there was still some forward momentum everywhere but Mereen. (And the superfluity of all the words spent on the Ironborn.)

This one I skimmed--a lot. The Dorne chapters: yawn. The Mereen chapters: yawn. And GRRM is not well served by his supposed editor. These last two books should have been one. He falls in love with his characters, their backstories, their landscapes. I understand. But unless you're Proust, a tighter story is a better story.

I mean jaaaaaaybus. We get the point. The Mother cares for her people. My interest in Dany waned in inverse proportion to the number of words devoted to Slaver's Bay in the last two books.

There was so much that should have been exposition (Dorne, Mereen, Connington). And yeah, Martun

[Total Depravity]

breastmilk poop doesnt stink; it smells like apricots

We have a 17 month old and I thought the exact thing when I read that section in ADWD. The fact that my son's poop didn't stink was one of the craziest realizations from the first year of being a dad. Oh, and the fact that there is a human being in my house who did not exist 18 months ago. That, too, is crazy. And I love every minute of it.

[Sarella Snow]

We have a 17 month old and I thought the exact thing when I read that section in ADWD. The fact that my son's poop didn't stink was one of the craziest realizations from the first year of being a dad. Oh, and the fact that there is a human being in my house who did not exist 18 months ago. That, too, is crazy. And I love every minute of it.

Yup, same reaction here! It doesn't stink.

[Aelinor]

In mass quantities, in small spaces, and not really cleaned up after? Yeah, it stinks. Not nearly as much as formula fed/solid food, but it does stink.

[Freshwater Spartan]

First post since finishing the book. A few thoughts.

I thought it was great read. Its not the strongest book but we knew it wouldn't be. Like AFfC, the book suffers from only having half the POV (for the most part). That was a mistake by Martin, but most of the viewpoints were engaging chapter to chapter. Oddly enough, Tyrion's the weakest POV not because of aimless wanderings but he no longer has power. I loved the guy who could trash talk anyone in Westeros and could get away with it because of his birth. This is no longer the case.

I don't understand all of the hate towards the book due to lack of action. Take an honest look at the series and you see that ASOIAF is not about action or even plot progression. Its about a harsh world where lively characters scheme, connive and practice politics against each other. In AGOT, ACoK, AFFC, not much happens in 1000 pages per book. Yeah Storm is the exception here but remember its got 2500 pages of setup before the crazy stuff starts. ADWD fits comfortably here. If your unsatisfied with the lack of action you really should find a different series. ASoIaF is not for you. Thats ok. There is nothing wrong with that but you should understand what the series is about. When Winds of Winter is released I can tell you whats going to happen. In 1000+ pages not much is going to happen at all but the ploting, conniving and politics will be a joy to read like ADWD and all of the other books.

[Greg B]

I don't understand all of the hate towards the book due to lack of action.

It's not about "hate" and it's not about "action." I've been disappointed in the last two books and feel they're waaaaaaay below the standards of the first three, but I don't hate them. They're not Highlander 2 or Matrix Reloaded bad. I'd still read the next in the series tomorrow, happily, even if it turned out to be at the same level as Feast and Dance. There's still some brilliance in these books and nothing that is really atrocious. But long stretches are a grind and you can tell that writing them was a grind. They lack pacing and narrative structure, and the lack is not artful.

These criticisms are not about "action" in the sense of sword fights and set-piece battles. Some of Reek's scenes are among the best in the book, and it's not because they're action-packed. It's because they have real character development, real pathos, dramatic tension, and they move the story forward. When Martin is on his game, he's freaking brilliant. He's not on his game for much of this book.

[Freshwater Spartan]

Fair enough Greg,

For me though ADWD feels just like the other books. It doesn't feel faster or slower. It fits right in. The story arcs move along like the other books. The dialog is crisp. The characters move along as they should. There is some bloat but none that I wouldn't want to read. I read this book just as quickly and feverishly as Storm. ADWD is a perfect fit in this series. Its only fault is the split POV problem that AFFC has. I would be willing to bet that if the POVS had never been split people's reactions would be a lot more positive (for AFFC as well).

I just think there is a lot of readers who claim to like how ASIAF is different from other fantasy but in actuality wish it was a lot more traditional.(Not saying this is you Greg, at all BTW.)

[Kalbear]

I wished that ADWD was less like other fantasy. A big problem for me was that so little of true consequence does happen, and we get lots of travelogues - the bane of bad fantasy.

I was talking this over with skylark last night - about the resolutions that happened in ASOS compared to ADWD. If you stopped right before the Red Wedding, you would have missed:

The Red Wedding

Joff's death

Tyrion's trial

Tyrion killing Tywin

Jon defending the Wall

Stannis arrival

Jon getting elected commander

Arya killing the Tickler

Arya going to Braavos

Sansa escaping KL

Sansa witnessing Lysa's confession and death

Cat's resurrection

Storm was pretty big on events, especially after the Red Wedding. That was what GRRM set up as an expectation, unfortunately. A lot of that was because he expected a 5-year gap to jump over the 'boring' parts. But it means that by comparison, we don't have those big beats that ASOS did.

[iamthedave]

I don't understand all of the hate towards the book due to lack of action.

The main 'hate' is the lack of CLIMAX. There's a difference there.

Also, two of the key cliffhangers seem to have zero traction in that 99% of the board does not believe Jon is dead for one solitary second and nobody believes Ramsay's letter is real either.

The general dissatisfaction with the Meereen chapters is more than justifiable, given they were quite boring at times. It's not that 'nothing was happening' it's that everyone knows the real story is in Westeros, and right up until this book, that was being hammered home every second of Dany's story. Then we get to Dance, and all of a sudden Meereen is the only place that counts.

Turning around and saying 'ASOIF isn't the series for you' when you don't even seem to understand the reasons people are having issues with the book is a little silly. Read more. There's plenty of very eloquent posts detailing the community's various frustrations and irritations.

You're right that frustrated expectations are part of it, but nobody would care if they were frustrated but that frustration was answered with AWESOME STUFF HAPPENING. The frustration is because awesome stuff categorically did not happen until the end of the book. And even then its level of awesome is up for debate. Given that not one but TWO of the big awesome things happening haven't convinced anybody of their legitimacy.

[Winterfelled]

I don't get all the complaining. I mean, no, it wasn't the best book in the series, but there was plenty of intrigue and tension. Tyrion's traveling wasn't pointless as some people are wont to say, as it was through him that we learn of Ser Jorah's whereabouts and the existence of a second living Targaryen.

Asking if the book was worth the five year wait is stupid. It's a question based on a false premise, anyway, since the long wait wasn't for the sake of making the best possible book, but the result of the series almost collapsing on itself entirely. The Feast/Dance split was a contingency plan, not something done on a whim. And we all know the struggles Martin had with his "Meerenese Knot" so to say "This wasn't worth waiting for" makes no sense at all. We KNEW he was having problems, and the book, in places, shows that.

[beehives]

I can't wait to see what my friends think about Dance. For some reason their reactions influence my rating of the book. I converted about 10 people to read ASOIAF and they run the gamut from casual readers to intense, board-game playing fans. I'm the only forum fan, though. I'm afraid the casual fans are going to hate it more than the Martin loyalists among them.

So far my boyfriend gives it a 4.4 out of 5. He didn't like its hodgepodge structure and stories that stopped half-way through the book. Also he absolutely despised the scene where Bran asks "Will you fix my legs?" and Bloodraven says "That is behind my powers" - calling it "cheesy crappy dialogue" like something out of He-man and the Masters of the Universe. LOL

[Dragons Dancing]

I have mixed feelings about ADWD but in retrospect and after discussion, I like it more than I did when just finished reading. I guess I needed to digest it.

Sure it dragged and I think this is partly because the overriding theme of this book was identity. Just about every characters identity evolved or devolved. The characters are being changed by what they have experienced which is realistic. Good post describing this identity theme and there is a recent interview where GRRM says that this book was about what comprises identity.

If so, more understandable why plot less important. He's trying to have the characters reflect their experiences and their identity changes will impact the plot in the next book. IMO

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/54474-adwd-spoilers-themes-running-through-adwd/

[Isus]

Ok,

I have read all books several times and have lurked around these boards for years.

This is maybe the best series I have ever read. But I am not sure I like the road this series is headed.

1. More I read the books more I am sure that the whole "fantastic" element is a drag to the books...Dragons,Others,prophesies..the seemed cool in the begginning but now...

This series has taken a big turn from a cool political, real, well depicted POV historical story with some fantastical backdrop(Dany and some Others) towards a Tolkien like fantasy story...suddenly we have false pretenders, undead, promised ones, dragons that can "feel" its real riders, prophesies left and right, suddenly nobody can die anymore(Tyrion should have died 5 times at least in ADWD), Moqorro guy, Brienne, Asha...Jon will surely come back also...Is this series really heading towards a "dragons kill Others, Jon and Dany marry, Aegon is fake, some Stark gets the North" ending?

2. The Characters

How many undead characters can we have? UnCat, FrankenGregor, Beric(finnaly dead), UnBrienne(some have posted this idea), maybe some red priests(Melissandre ?), maybe Jon soon(should be revived)...add that to the list of characters who seemed dead or are supposed to be: Sandor, Stark kids, Ashara Dayne(septa Lemore ?),Aegon...and especially to the list of people whose parentage is unknown or fake or whatnot: JON, Aegon( I do hope he is a real thing because if he is Illyrios son or just some normal kid I would be hugely dissapointed), Ashara Daynes kid, maybe Tyrion, the baby a Stark made on the Sisterton.. in fact it seems all Starks and Targs do is to screw around...

Not to mention that it is downright impossible for 2 people(Varys and LF) to be involved in just about every plot we have seen in 5 books.

Also where the hell are Aurane Waters, Gendry, Edrick Storm, little Dayne kid, Marwyn, and what does that FM want with with the maesters?

What I am trying to say in this little rant is that this series just doesnt feel like it did in the first 3, hell even 4 books( I like the AFFC better, it had Jaime and Brienne in some interesting situations, Dorne and Iron Islands were more fleshed out, Cersei was crazy, Sam and the maesters). Although this one had some cool topics(Manderly and the pie, Aegon, dragons going crazy(one departure from the fantasy plot), Stannis doing what none of u posters predicted, FM using faces of the dead..), it just wasnt the same. There were no funny moments, no heartbreaking moments, nothing. Plot went on and on and on. If it wasnt for YG going west nothing extremely important would have hapenned. Now, dont get me wrong. I love the whole world Martin has created and this book fleshed it out a lot(Essos, wildlings) but we have waited 5 years and there are only 2, maybe 3? books left. And it seems to me that half of the smaller story lines Martin started will never be resolved, and that Jon, Tyrion, Dany triumvirate is destined to live happily ever after. And I do not like that no matter how much compelling chars the first 2 of them have been(Dany is just a Westeros Athina Onassis with dragons).

[grom]

Long time lurker, first time poster.

I HAD to register because I felt so identified with the OP. Did we wait 11 years for this?

Its not only about expectations, structure, climax.... I just didnt like the book. I actually think AFfC is much better than ADwD.

I discover Martin around 2000. After reading the first three books of ASoIaF, I read most all of his work. I rarely have read it but, for me, it's obvious that "the rest" of Martin's work is remarkably inferior to AGoT/ACoK/ASoS.

Well, ADwD is in line with that other work, much worse than the 3 first books of ASoIaF.

I actually liked one arc of the book. Bran´s.

In Bran's arc, I got the ONLY old-fashioned goosebumping shock-of-pleasure in the entire book, the revelation of the Three eyed crow identity.

In Bran´s arc we see him struggle, we see how he reachs his destination and afterwards, have a glimpse of what he is doing to progress. All salted with little bits of pleasurable references to the past.

In 3 chapters. I repeat: in THREE chapters.

I havent read people complaining about why we didnt got 10 more chapters of Bran riding the elk thru the snow.

We could have had 10 more chapters of Bran. Luckily we didnt.

And still, Bran's arc had more reading pleasure in 3 chapters than ALL the chapters of Jon, Tyrion, Quentyn and Dany put together.

[JJMicromegas]

You still could have included Cersei chapters, but taken out Arya's and Jaime's. The stuff in Cersei's first chapter could've teased Jaime's storyline for The Winds of Winter, and a pseudo-confirmation that Brienne is alive. But I completely agree, I would've preffered no Jaime and Arya (whose chapters I actually rather liked) to letting the book have more of a conclusion.

I mean, can you imagine if A Clash of Kings stopped right before the Battle of Blackwater (but still contained the final Bran, Dany, Arya, and Jon chapters)? Everyone would've complained like they are now. I really did like A Dance with Dragons, but it needed two to six more chapters (depending on how long it would take to resolve the battles for Winterfell and Meereen).

I agree, I still enjoyed ADWD because I love the world and the characters and GRRM's writing. But what's frustrating is that ADWD could've been on par with ACOK or ASOS with some careful editing out of earlier chapters and the inclusion of a few at the end to bring about some conclusive endings.

[garfner]

If I had read AFoC last year and I knew that the next book would come out next year then I would give this book a 7 out of 10. But seeing that some of this was 10 years in the making, I have to give it about a 3.