[ADwD Spoilers] Well That Was Disappointing

[scotcat]

I feel that the wait between affc and dwd and the hype surrounding the arrival of the tv show made people feel this book should be more than it actually turned out to be. That said, I enjoyed it.

Did I feel disappointed after reading it? No. Was it perfect? Nope. Am I eager for the next installment? Yes.

[veedonfleece]

I enjoyed the book but I think a major problem is that two of the main characters - Tyrion and Dany - are having their stories become almost 'merely' picaresque (we are seeing a series of 'adventures' with only very slight progression of any type) rather than developing in a way that properly progresses the arc of the overall story.

[beehives]

Alyssa Rosenberg in her review calls the book "exhausting" with no end to the series in sight. Her review is more true to the story than Jace Lacob's, who called the book "a masterpiece." That word should be used sparingly.

[AverageGuy]

I enjoyed the book but I think a major problem is that two of the main characters - Tyrion and Dany - are having their stories become almost 'merely' picaresque (we are seeing a series of 'adventures' with only very slight progression of any type) rather than developing in a way that properly progresses the arc of the overall story.

Or negative progression. If Dany regains control of Meereen and her dragons in the sixth book, she'll be back to where she was at the end of the third book. Oh, there's conceptual stuff in there, and maybe the seeds of character progression, but central-plotwise? Which is why I kind of hope she just abandons Slaver's Bay.

[Jon Blackfyre]

Well, I disagree with anyone that was disappointed. I loved it. And I'll tell you why. AFFC and ADWD are not supposed to be the same pace as ACOK and ASOS. It is more along the lines of AGOT.

It is a simple matter of story arcs. The first arc is the War of the Five Kings, which concluded for the most part in ASOS. AGOT set up all the events that take place in ACOK and ASOS.

AFFC and ADWD are the set up books for the second story arc, which will be the Battle for the Dawn, or the War of the Long Night, or whatever it will be called. These books set the stage for what will happen in TWOW and ADOS. If it continued along at the break neck pace of ASOS and didn't slow down, reshuffle and set the stage for a new arc their wouldn't be any flow into the next two books.

Some people will agree with me, some will not. But I am happy with the series and will never complain about my favorite fantasy realm to escape to.

[Ser Pistus]

Well, I disagree with anyone that was disappointed. I loved it. And I'll tell you why. AFFC and ADWD are not supposed to be the same pace as ACOK and ASOS. It is more along the lines of AGOT.

It is a simple matter of story arcs. The first arc is the War of the Five Kings, which concluded for the most part in ASOS. AGOT set up all the events that take place in ACOK and ASOS.

A Game Of Thrones set up a lot of things, yes, but it had much more than that. It had beautifully complete story arcs. It also had lots of great moments. "The things I do for love", the golden crown, Robert and the boar, "they killed my nigga Ned", Robb chosen as King in the North, and the birth of the dragons.

[Iotun]

Well, I disagree with anyone that was disappointed. I loved it. And I'll tell you why. AFFC and ADWD are not supposed to be the same pace as ACOK and ASOS. It is more along the lines of AGOT.

It is a simple matter of story arcs. The first arc is the War of the Five Kings, which concluded for the most part in ASOS. AGOT set up all the events that take place in ACOK and ASOS.

AFFC and ADWD are the set up books for the second story arc, which will be the Battle for the Dawn, or the War of the Long Night, or whatever it will be called. These books set the stage for what will happen in TWOW and ADOS. If it continued along at the break neck pace of ASOS and didn't slow down, reshuffle and set the stage for a new arc their wouldn't be any flow into the next two books.

Some people will agree with me, some will not. But I am happy with the series and will never complain about my favorite fantasy realm to escape to.

Yes, but you see, we are not discussing chapters of a book, we are discussing whole books. Set up is fine. When your setup is coming close to being twice the length of 'War and Peace', then there's something wrong with your structure.

I did not 'dislike' the book, though my regard of it certainly fell while I was reading it. I'll save myself some time and just quote what I said in another thread:

"I think that Dance fact suffers from heavy structural problems. I've only now finished the book, but I spoiled myself to what was going to happen anyway (willingly, I couldn't stand being at work and not being able to read, so I looked things up on the internet), so I've already read some of the complains from people about the book. I will not accept the complain that 'nothing happens'. In fact I think that a very large amount happens. Bran becomes a green seer,and a Targaryen lands in Westeros (I believe that probably Martin doesn't intend for Dany to take a traditional conqueror role that we expected), both of which by themselves are very significant forward movements.

The problem is that there's no sort of climax. In the first 3 books we had an introduction, development, escalation, and then a climax, a big shock, and then its aftermath. In Feast we didn't have that - in Feast we really had no progress. Dance started very good, and for the first 400 or so pages, it actually seemed as if it would be perhaps even my favorite book in the series. You really get a sense of anticipation and foreboding in the first half of the book - a sense that a big conflict that will envelop major forces of Essos - Dany's enemies (slavers, sellswords, Qartheen, Dothraki) are meeting outside Meereen, and that if she emerges from it victorious she will be a world power to be reckoned with. You can see she's in trouble, and the journeys of Tyrion, Quentin and Victarion become more dramatic as you feel that they will have to reach her for her to stand a chance, that somehow they, and epsecially Tyrion will be the key to the victory of a cataclysmic battle, and of a successful ruling of Meereen. I was getting a feeling similar to that in CoK during the buildup to the battle of the Blackwater. Meanwhile - similar developments are seen in the North while following Davos and Syannis, and I thought that although control of the North would not be resolves in this book, that we would have some major battle or development that wold set the major players in position (much as in GoT).

But then it just fizzles out, and instead of getting our climax we just keep going on and on and on with buildup until the book ends. There's no battle for Meereen. The North stays tense but there's been no strike. Aegon lands in Westeros, but so silently that there's nothing cathartic about it. Jon is left in a lame cliffhanger after doing not much for a whole book. The only characters that seem to have a more complete journey are Bran and Theon (Theon especially is my favorite part of the book, Bran, although nicely structured, left me depressed and sad).

Imagine how much BETTER this book would have been, if some of its fat had been cut down, and it extended so that we see to the end of the battle for Meereen. Its obvious that there will be a battle, and that Dany will return one way or the other. If the book had been extended until Dany returns and the Yunkai are defeated, if it gave us some important battle in the North between Stannis and Ramsay, if we follwed Davos all the way to Rickon coming back to Westeros, if Tyrion ended with him meeting Dany - then the book would have been redeemed, because then our major storylines would have reached their peak and resolved for the chapter. But as it stands its a book that's all development that just builds and builds and builds and then... just ends.

Now I won't just blame Martin. This is a structural problem, and I have to wonder what his editor was doing. I think in fact that I remember reading in an interview that there was to be some big battle at the end, but that Martin though it best to leave it for the next book due to its size. I can help but wonder if he was guided to that decision by publishers, wanting him to push the juicy bits to the next book so that all the suckers want to buy it.

[Faint]

Alyssa Rosenberg in her review calls the book "exhausting" with no end to the series in sight. Her review is more true to the story than Jace Lacob's, who called the book "a masterpiece." That word should be used sparingly.

I thought the Rosenberg review was excellent. One of the few legitimate reviews that refuses to pull its punches and actually acknowledges some of the weaknesses of the book, while still commending many of its strengths. In particular, I love her encapsulation of Daenerys' storyline -- she's really on point.

I'm starting to wonder whether bloggers unconnected with the authors are the only truly independent and unbiased source of book reviews left.

[lady crackhead]

I can't say I'm any more disappointed than I was with the book before it. Mainly because I haven't read anything but the Theon chapters yet, and those are supposed to be his strongest writing, if the comments around the board mean anything. I did flip around & I can say that I'm not too happy to see that most of it is set in the East with Danerys (or worse: Dorne! No more Big Brown Nipples! No MORE!...& the name Taena rubs me the wrong way, too).

I can say this: I don't get the fury over Martin finishing the story. I couldn't care less. Life is not tidy, why should this book be? Any one of us can kick that bucket before Martin; its all moot. And frankly, the chances are slim to none , heavy on the none, that he will wrap this story up in a way that will satisfy me. I'd rather be left to my own imagination on this ending matter. I also dont give a crap about the wildings or the Others.

Martin has written 3 wonderful, magical books. For those, I'm grateful to him forever. You claim he promised you the stars and youre furious that he won't deliver them now. He's human; get over it. There is nothing else to do about it, & it's not something you can solve with force. He lost interest in these characters & in the story, you can see that in the writing over the last 2 books. It's a human thing. I'm sure he didn't mean to, but he did. C'est la vie.

I'm critical of the things in the writing that I see, or the things that are missing from it. But ultimately, I view him as a mostly interesting storyteller of adult fairy tales, with a large dose of historical realism. I would be content if he scrapped the books & just wrote this all out in serial form, a little at a time. If it comes down to 2 or 3 more books over another ten or twenty years vs. him just keeping on telling his stories in short form annually or whatever, I'd pick the latter.

He doesnt have the pressure to write this story which must contribute to his feeling that it is a chore for him, & I maximize my joy by consuming the story over a larger portion of my life. While we're both alive.

[rhaze]

I think when GRRM finishes this series, he will move back to novellas and short stories and stay there.

[Imp Dick]

No. Not by any stretch of the imagination can this be even remotely possible. There are plenty of clues strewn through the previous two books for the reader to understand who "Ser Robert Strong" is.

Not so fast. Dude still needs a head. Gregor Clegane's is in Dorne. Robert Baratheon's however...probably pretty close to where Qyburn has his little necro-workshop.

[Podrick + Arya = Win]

In DANCE we had "Tyrion ate a bowl of blueberries that were small, juicy and succulent, they were also blue and he used his fingers to pick them up to put them in his mouth, he then washed it down with wine as red as blood. He then put down his glass with his left hand and wiped his mouth with his right."

I mean, what? Really? Don't get me wrong, descriptions are great, but too much and it gets ridiculous and takes you OUT of the story.

Wait, was this really in the book? To be honest, I skip the paragraph whenever food descriptions come up. But this is ridiculous. Is it really in the book? :wacko:

I wouldn't put it past Martin, but this sounds ... ridiculous.

[Røyksopp]

Yes, but you see, we are not discussing chapters of a book, we are discussing whole books... snip

Completely agree.

Thre are things that definitely happen in this book; all sorts of things. Like you said though, no real climax and resolution. :(

[Lilith of Tarth]

I liked DwD a lot but it did feel like all the characters were just being moved about to get them ready for "After the Gap." These books needed to be written to get everything ready for the end of the story. I just hope that we get some resolutions in WoW:

*Boltons being killed and staying dead.

*Wights descending upon the wall and everyone being scared sh**less.

*Dany and her dragons finally getting to Westeros.

*Young Griff dying and Griff being sent to the wall and becoming Lord Commander there.

*Margaery and Cersei's trial getting over and done with.

My favorite new character is probably Penny, such an "other side of the coin" to Tyrion.

[Raksha the Demon]

Alyssa Rosenberg in her review calls the book "exhausting" with no end to the series in sight. Her review is more true to the story than Jace Lacob's, who called the book "a masterpiece." That word should be used sparingly.

A very thoughtful and well-written review. I thought Rosenberg was particularly on point in her discussion of Jon Snow's arc in the book, how much he was growing as a leader, breaking down some of the taboos of the Night's Watch to make it a more effective unit that actually had a hope of fighting the Others, and then the tragedy of his assassination.

[Iotun]

Also, it seems Martin's writing style has changed, and I find most chapters seems to be following an obvious formula. I remember in GoT chapters were short, many often just a few pages long, and to the point. There was description, but it was pointed, and condensed. Take the chapter in GoT where Catelyn climbs up to the Eyrie - we get a description of the castles that's very vivid and beautiful, but she does the whole journey in a few pages, and still we have enough space for a conversation with Lysa.

With every passing books, Martin becomes more ponderous and more long-winded. And his chapters always fit the same pattern:

- 3/4 pages of internal monologues/description/remembering the past

- 3/4 pages of dialogue with some other character, or otherwise, an action sequence

- some cliffhanger event to prepare you for the next chapter

I actually think these books will greatly benefit from a TV adaptation if it ever gets there, since the limitations of TV will FORCE the writers to cut out a lot of the fat from the story.

[jsucram]

Five books in, reading since 90's and we STILL don't know what ASOIAF means, who it applies to, etc. Not definitively. I do hope that the title is a little more applicable than the title ADWD, or I think we will all be sorely disappointed. How can you tell when the story climaxes, or if a POV's story arc has completed ..... If you don't know what the HELL story actually is to start with. I honestly don't even know who the main character(s) are. Catelyn may as well be AA reborn for all we know. The mystery and prophecy setup in AGOT was brilliant and this continued through ASOS .... but now the story is just floundering.

Personally, I think Martin does know how this will conclude. It's probably something that he can resolve it a couple of chapters and we will get only filler until then. Brilliantly written filler, but filler nonetheless. This will be a great exercise in Mind Muscle Confusion.

To my dismay, this series is turning into LOST in book form with half a decade between seasons. LOST could have been ended in episode 2 just like this series could end now.

I hope this guy lives to complete the series, and if he does, I also hope no one tries to murder him if he forces a bunch of cheese down our throats to end it all.

[benadgatemusic]

I'm sorry, I sound like a moron asking this but what does "AA" stand for...and when did it get revealed that Aegon wasn't actually who Tyrion thought he was?!?!

[Brigid]

Glancing through this thread has been good for me, since I tend to gloss over problems. In the main I'm okay with that approach- I stress out less and enjoy more. However, it's interesting to read other's perspectives.

Alyssa Rosenberg in her review calls the book "exhausting" with no end to the series in sight. Her review is more true to the story than Jace Lacob's, who called the book "a masterpiece." That word should be used sparingly.

I disagree with Rosenberg's criticism that in ADWD the series is not turning towards the ultimate crisis. I see a turn towards the ultimate confrontation between Ice and Fire. This touches on another criticism someone made upthread, that ADWD shows the series is becoming more of a classic fantasy (or fantasy/ horror mix) than political drama. That's a concern of mine as well, because I like the low fantasy nature of the series more than the fantasy elements. Though as far as I can see, this was always meant to be a mixture of the human politics and the parallel conflict in the cosmos. Granted, a series this big is not going to turn on a dime- which may be why some don't see movement at all. I respectfully disagree. GRRM is setting up the cyvasse board, but the pieces are moving.

[Brigid]

I'm sorry, I sound like a moron asking this but what does "AA" stand for...and when did it get revealed that Aegon wasn't actually who Tyrion thought he was?!?!

I believe AA=Azor Ahai, and if you mean when it was revealed that Aegon was a fake, it hasn't been but some people speculate that that's the case. Quaithe refers to "the mummer's dragon." That could mean a fake dragon, or the mummer could be Varys.