[ADwD Spoilers] Well That Was Disappointing

[freshandclean]

Also, it seems Martin's writing style has changed, and I find most chapters seems to be following an obvious formula. I remember in GoT chapters were short, many often just a few pages long, and to the point. There was description, but it was pointed, and condensed. Take the chapter in GoT where Catelyn climbs up to the Eyrie - we get a description of the castles that's very vivid and beautiful, but she does the whole journey in a few pages, and still we have enough space for a conversation with Lysa.

With every passing books, Martin becomes more ponderous and more long-winded. And his chapters always fit the same pattern:

- 3/4 pages of internal monologues/description/remembering the past

- 3/4 pages of dialogue with some other character, or otherwise, an action sequence

- some cliffhanger event to prepare you for the next chapter

I actually think these books will greatly benefit from a TV adaptation if it ever gets there, since the limitations of TV will FORCE the writers to cut out a lot of the fat from the story.

Basically. I think I could have forgiven the fact that nothing really happens in the book if the chapters themselves were tightly written. But the chapters themselves (bar a few Theon chapters and the Drogon roasts the pit chapter) are bloated with no real payoff. The Aegon reveal was weird in that I totally didn't care for some reason. It fell flat, whereas in the past, things like that would blow me away. Same with Quentyn's death, and Jon's for that matter (though in that case it's because he's totally NOT dead).

Conversely, I could have forgiven the bloated uninteresting chapters if at least a few major plot points were resolved or moved forward. The cardinal sin with ADwD is that he didn't do either.

[firestorm]

Theon was never dead. We are explicitly told this by Roose Bolton who gives a flayed finger to King Robb and Catelyn a chapter before the Red Wedding in ASoS. Robb orders Roose Bolton to keep him captive at the Dreadfort. You must not have been paying attention. :)

Aegon was prophesied in ACoK, A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd. ... mother of dragons, slayer of lies... Quaithe as well mentions the mummer's dragon.

Aegon is a fake; he's not real. He was Varys' and Illyrio's Plan B after Viserys got himself crowned.

As for Jon, there are clues strewn all over ADwD that he's not dead, that he's AA and that Jon's death is a part of the prophecy. Read the death scene (et tu Bowen) again. His wound is described as "smoking". Bowen March is weeping tears (salt) and above them, Wun Wun is bashing Ser Patrek's bloody corpse against the wall with a shield strapped to his arm (heraldric device: five pointed star - the bleeding star).

You need to read a little deeper, but I appreciate that Jon's death pissed a lot of people off initially. We are mostly all quite certain it isn't perma-death, given that Varamyr shows us in the Prologue that a warg transmigrates to their wolf upon death. So unlike Drogo, Jon's spirit is present to be rejoined to his body should it be healed/raised a la Drogo.

And Among other things, Melissandre seems to be several times more powerful than Thoros of Myr, and he was able to continually resurrect Dondarion with his fire kiss.

[benadgatemusic]

I believe AA=Azor Ahai, and if you mean when it was revealed that Aegon was a fake, it hasn't been but some people speculate that that's the case. Quaithe refers to "the mummer's dragon." That could mean a fake dragon, or the mummer could be Varys.

Ah, thank you. I always assumed "the mummer's dragon" meant Varys because he plotted it and was a mummer before he was castrated.

[Morlando]

I agree. I too was disappointed by Dance With Dragons. I personally felt this novel was fluff especially considering the strength of the preceding books - at this stage further building out characters like Daenerys and overusing the soap opera twist of "no the character is not really dead" seems contrived.

That said there were intriguing moral issues brought up: Tyrion coming to grips with being a drawf which could have been drawn out more, the inner conflict of Jon and the Nights Watch coming to grip with the humanity of the peoples and beings beyond the wall, Ser Barriston Selmy reflecting on his handicapping himself with honor and yet remaining honoble which might get him killed one day, and lastly Arya - losing her moral compass. All good stuff, but somehow not executed as well as in the past books.

As readers, I guess in the end - we know what the conflict is and are ready for the it's resolution.

[Ygritte's fur]

I completely agree with the critiques that, plot and pacing aside, the writing is not at the level of the first three or even AFFC. There are vivid, well-written sections (the Theon sections, mostly) but in general the writing is weaker. The PP who gave the example of the Benjen eating an onion in AGOT ("it crunched") vs five lamely written sentences about Tyrion eating in ADOD was right on.

It feels to me as if Martin wrote himself into a corner, got bored with that stale corner, and dragged himself across a field on that bad leg when what he needed to do was chop that leg off and use it's bones for a crutch. It seems he was incapable of making any decisions about what writing and which sellsword companies were critical to his story.

The writing in the previous books was vivid. I never a complaint about Martin's writing. It never got in the way of his story. Till this book. In the previous books I felt the dread, the stench, the depravity of Harrenhal and the riverlands. I seriously got ill when I read the line where Jojen sees Reek peeling Bran and Rikon's faces. I couldn't sleep that night. I was terrified during he scenes at the Fist.

But it's not just scariness I miss. It's the way the story was made real, in all the different story lines. In this book and the previous, there are many places where--instead of the terrifying and totally original Vargo Hoat type scenes or the mixed-up-ed-ness of The Hound--there are pages of lists of names. Johnny the Slow Eater, Dick One-Eye, Little Miss Muffintop, etc. Paragraphs at a time! This happens in the Vicatarion sections, the Dorne sections and the Griff sections. And the Mereen sections. Pages and pages of lists of names and descriptions of hairstyles.

[jsucram]

Basically. I think I could have forgiven the fact that nothing really happens in the book if the chapters themselves were tightly written. But the chapters themselves (bar a few Theon chapters and the Drogon roasts the pit chapter) are bloated with no real payoff. The Aegon reveal was weird in that I totally didn't care for some reason. It fell flat, whereas in the past, things like that would blow me away. Same with Quentyn's death, and Jon's for that matter (though in that case it's because he's totally NOT dead).

Conversely, I could have forgiven the bloated uninteresting chapters if at least a few major plot points were resolved or moved forward. The cardinal sin with ADwD is that he didn't do either.

The problem here is ... that after 11 years we've had more than enough time to go through every iteration of story line, prophecy, theory possible. Nothing will come as a surprise at this point until Martin reveals one of his most precious secrets. All the relevant player's who form the basis of the main story line are dead. So, the foundation is there, but we will have to suffer through figuring all this out through some POV characeter's eyes 15-20 years later.

"Summerhall" - cmon already, WTF happened at Summerhall. I was excited that Selmy was even close to Dany in the last book so he might tell her some juicy secrets from the past. This time we finally get a Selmy POV and STILL learn nothing (except BS about Mereen). And, Connington ... Rheagar's best friend. How much more do we know about Rheagar than we did in AGOT. Nothing, we learn Connigton has greyscale .... woohooo.

"Year of the False Spring" - Teasers abound ... Ned, Bran (via Meera/Jojen), Selmy. We know whatever happened just after these events are the basis for this entire series. Is it something to do with Lyanna, Ashara .... no idea (5 books in).

"Promise me Ned" - Jesus Christ ... with no new POVs being added from this point on, this will be an everlasting question. Unless Jojen/Meeera quote their father Howland .... we will go to our graves with this one. Of course there will be something that makes us say "ah, yea ... thats it" but there will be no corroboration. Tower of Joy ..... :stunned:

We will get answers to all these questions in the last few chapters of the last book. The main story line has a narrow focus on a FEW events and once they are known the story is over. NO room for a plot arc with a climax per se. Expect a book, possibly two, and 3/4's of a book until you know anything for sure.

OK, I feel am venting my displeasure towards this book, and series as a whole a little too much. Had the same issue after AFFC. Need a 6-12 month hiatus :fencing:

[kairparavel]

Man, all that camping in the middle bogged down the book. I understood that it was setting a mood but I was really glad when Ron left and Harry and Hermione were able to pick up and DO something for a bit, before getting back to more camping.

But things sure picked up after they flew that dragon...

[beehives]

I disagree with Rosenberg's criticism that in ADWD the series is not turning towards the ultimate crisis. I see a turn towards the ultimate confrontation between Ice and Fire. This touches on another criticism someone made upthread, that ADWD shows the series is becoming more of a classic fantasy (or fantasy/ horror mix) than political drama. That's a concern of mine as well, because I like the low fantasy nature of the series more than the fantasy elements. Though as far as I can see, this was always meant to be a mixture of the human politics and the parallel conflict in the cosmos. Granted, a series this big is not going to turn on a dime- which may be why some don't see movement at all. I respectfully disagree. GRRM is setting up the cyvasse board, but the pieces are moving.

I'm not her but I think she would agree with you about the confrontation between Ice and Fire. That's a relatively simple storyline to execute/follow. I think she is saying that the story loses some torque because of the extemporaneous stuff that's only there to give our characters personal growth (especially Dany). Dance has created the need for an even higher word count in succeeding books. Any time a new character/setting is added it takes another book for their arc to at least move toward completion. This creates a double bind: if a new character is added and their arc is completed relatively quickly (Quentyn) then it seems shoddy and pointless. If we follow an old character eventually they have to stop learning and embrace their lessons and new identities. And that increases the wordcount as well.

Now we've got two sellsword companies (Tyrion and Connington), a battle between three slave cities (Barristan and Dany), men who want to marry Dany for her power and control the Dragons (Victarion, Marwyn), Dany breaking ties with Meereen and moving her army to Westeros (if that even happens), Dorne still in revenge mode (Doran and Arianne), Littlefinger/Sansa doing god knows what, Citadel stuff that still needs to happen (Sam), past mysteries that still need to be explained (Jon's parents, Summerhall), new mysteries that need to be resolved (what the F happened at Winterfell, what happens to Davos/Rickon), Lady Stoneheart/Brienne/the Freys, Cersei's trial and some kind of resolution between her and Jaime, Arya's move back to Westeros (the trip there would probably take up 3 chapters!), the Wall falling and Jon's "2nd chapter" (is Martin planning a 3rd?), and the biggest one of all: character reunions and new character meet-ups. All of this and more on top of the Ice/Fire battle. ...Whew! I'm exhausted just thinking about it.

[cosmictwang]

Things that happened offscreen bugged me. Hardhome, especially. I get that there's no POV character there but still, a bunch of the wildlings follow a religious figure to caves by the sea. They're tricked by slavers, some rebel, others starve (donner party style) and there's 'dead things' in the water and in the trees and that scene isn't written?

[Nafro]

Everything in this book happened off screen. Martin is getting lazy. He has no idea what to do with this story except make maoney. Lucas 2.0 Anyway, this will just be deleted by the GRRM Storm troopers who run this board.

[BarristanTheBold]

What a dismal fading of a once-great series. The first three books in this series were mostly well paced and engrossing. This was anything but a page-turner. Too many points of view to get to grips with the main plot. Half of the chapters feel like filler to get to 1,000 pages, or stalling because Martin didn't have anything else to put between two events.

What happened to the editor?

For instance, Brienne. The last we saw of her, she was about to hang. Boom, out of nowhere she rides up to Jaime, and within pages she is gone. So over a period of what is likely to be over 10 years for us in real time, she somehow avoids dying and rides off with Jaime. No explanation of what happened at the end of Feast, no conclusion from Dance. Just a broken plot that seems to float off into the ether. Tyrion had one single goal at the beginning of Dance and, over almost 1,000 pages, shockingly couldn't even reach that goal. He was sidetracked with some pointless retarded dwarf girl riding a f***** pig. And what was the point of Quentyn other than filling 60 odd pages? He has a quest, he reaches his destination, and he dies. He has no impact, there was not a single good reason to even include this person as a point of view character. What a shambles!

Tell me again: why did this have to be split into two books? There is no more than 600 pages of events that is even worthy of being included into this series, and only two or three that rivaled the numerous beautifully written climaxes of the first 3 books. Even if one condensed the best moments of both Feast and Dance into one book, it would still fall far short of any single book in the first three.

[Tom the Merciful]

I wouldn't say I was disappointed by the book, but I am not satisfied with it, either.

On the good side, it's GRRM. His writing is second to none and the vividness of his descriptions is head and shoulders above any other fantasy author, living or dead. It was a joy to read it. I wouldn't have any problems if we would get next book in, say, six months. As we probably have to wait another six years, I am a bit pissed (again).

Truth to be told, not much happens in a way of general plot. Famous Meereenese Knot is neither cut nor unravaled and I harbor a suspicion that the book was published with no true solution for that particular problem. I mean, book closes without the final convergence of characters that was expected to take place. Timelines were mentioned, but I honestly don't understand this point. Who can tell at what moment in time Quentyn left Dorne or how much time was needed to Tyrion to come to Sorrows or...I am confident nobody would have noticed eventual timeline problems. On the other hand, all characters develop during their travails to reach Meereen, that was well done.

Again, important stuff happened offscreen. On one hand I like how GRRM handles the fact that some characters are unreliable and some news that were delivered through multiple transmitters end up corrupted. On the other, further twists and turns are not beneficial in terms of driving the plot forward.

No revelations at all, only further deployment of red herrings and other "fraudulent" plot devices. There's talk about Loras, but we still don't know whether he's functional or not. We cannot be sure if he's alive. What was Jamie's POV for? It was nice to learn about Blackwood/Bracken dispute, but did we need another cliffhanger for the next installment which will be years in coming?

In the end, I found Dany's thread most satisfying. There's a great potential to the story, but I would have expected to see some kind of closure there. Maybe her coming back to Meereen and making some decisions.

There's one thing that bugs me when I read posts in this thread. Still, many of readers seem to buy into prophecies. Interestingly, I see this whole book as GRRM's statement of sorts, especially related to prophecies and truths. Maybe I am completely wrong, but I find that GRRM is telling us that all prophecies are at least fickle and most probably utter crap. Also, he tells us that the truth is subject to subjective interpretation. Since we are served the book through POVs, we should choose carefully who is reliable and to what extent. Even the honorable people such as Ser Barristan are not always reliable, especially when considering past events where they made a mistake or two. That's another great plus for ADWD in my book.

If only winter winds would come quickly...

[Raksha the Demon]

I'm actually getting tired of and bored by the prophecies and dreams. Prophecies are a time-honored fantasy convention; and, handled well (and sparingly), they can add some suspense, otherness, guidance, to a quest or other types of plots. I can't even keep track of the prophecies with which GRRM keeps sprinkling the narrative. As far as I know, the only prophecy that has clearly come true is the dwarf woman prophesying Sansa's role in Joffrey's death i.e. the poison-jeweled hairnet. (yes, I remember the Miiri Maz Duur prophecies; they're not very clear, we're still debating their meaning). Of course, I will say that Melisandre's looking into magic fire for Azorwhosis and seeing only snow might just be an indication that Azorwhosis is going to be Jon (with luck he'll also be the Prince Who Was Promised and maybe, somehow, the Stallion Who Mounts the World so we get a prophecy threefer. Unlikely, but I can dream...).

[Anthem]

I'm actually getting tired of and bored by the prophecies and dreams. Prophecies are a time-honored fantasy convention; and, handled well (and sparingly), they can add some suspense, otherness, guidance, to a quest or other types of plots.

I thoroughly agree. I wish some prophecies in novels turn out to be completely wrong. Not mere red herrings, but flat out wrong. It seems some characters' lives - mainly Dany and the Stark children - are dictated by the words of some vague shadowy people like Quaithe who turn up when the plot demands it and say mysterious things.

For example, I feel if Quentyn is indeed the "sun who sets in the east" his entire journey feels cheapened. He's been reduced down to a line in a prophecy.

[Raksha the Demon]

Quentyn should have had a more significant arc, or not been included at all. He's what I would call a fairly lackluster character compared to most of the cast of ASoIaF...

Now if Gerold Dayne had some sauntering in, or Oberyn Martell (that is, if GRRM hadn't killed him off in AFFC, which I'm still upset about, I liked the Viper), then we'd have maybe had some fun with the Sun's experience in sunny Mereen...

[OtherDearest]

Quentin was a tragic character. Despite all the hopes riding on him and despite what he feels is his "destiny" he fails utterly. I actually felt that he was an interesting counterpoint to the classic fantasy hero arc and his story fit well with Martin's style of favoring realism over tropes.

[Rockroi]

This is the sewer where people spill their bile against DwD. Let's keep it angst-ridden and bitchy.

Ah, I see, our criticisms are simply “bile.” Thank you for clearing that up TerraPrime. For a moment I had thought this was the place to be critical of the series. Instead, you have informed me that it’s a sewer. Thank you for doing so. Now, what are all those posts wherein the boarders all exclaim the virtues of the book? Are they not also sewers or are they the “bastions of pure light and joy and intelligence and beauty”?

See, I thought I was allowed to be “critical.” That was what I had thought. But if I am critical, it appears, I am told that I am being “angst-ridden and bitchy.” Huh… imagine my surprise? And you’re a mod, right?

In other words, in this tension-filled spring of a time where some people are a tad bit disappointed with ADwD, maybe we should eliminate the need to use pejoratives in describing the where and the who is being critical. I find your categorization to be unseemly. There are going to be people who are dissatisfied who are not "angst-ridden and bitchy" (and who do not need to read the Lord of the Rings - nicely done, by the way). There is no need to categorize us all as such.

In other words, if you are going to be a mod, somebody has to moderate the moderators if they are going to engage in THAT kind of debate.

[Triester]

Ah, I see, our criticisms are simply “bile.” Thank you for clearing that up TerraPrime. For a moment I had thought this was the place to be critical of the series. Instead, you have informed me that it’s a sewer. Thank you for doing so. Now, what are all those posts wherein the boarders all exclaim the virtues of the book? Are they not also sewers or are they the “bastions of pure light and joy and intelligence and beauty”?

This has been brought up several times. Dismissing critique for ADWD is getting very old :rolleyes: I haven't seen too many f*ck martin he sucks RRAGGGRHRHRH posts. The negative remarks have been to the point and generally uniform. There are genuine, severe problems with ADWD and Feast as well if he consider the books two halves of a whole. In contrast most positive remarks tend to be heavily qualified: "I really loved it but... cliffhangers/length/lack of resolution/boring parts etc".

[Triester]

Its not only about expectations, structure, climax.... I just didnt like the book. I actually think AFfC is much better than ADwD.

I feel the same way. Though they both share similar problems, feast mitigates them by its setting; we are interested and invested in Westeros. It feel authentic and interesting. The East on the other hand comes of as cartoonish and boring, without nuance or subtlety. The Dothraki were fine Dany's travels in the first three books worked as well. But once Martin tried to immerse us in the political goings on over there... it was time to bail out :laugh:

A Game Of Thrones set up a lot of things, yes, but it had much more than that. It had beautifully complete story arcs. It also had lots of great moments. "The things I do for love", the golden crown, Robert and the boar, "they killed my nigga Ned", Robb chosen as King in the North, and the birth of the dragons.

Dany's development over the length of that book was strong.

The tournament was a fantastic spectacle as well.

Ned executing Lady and Arya chasing away Nymeria were good moments.

Bronn's introduction and fight scene. The battle Tyrion finds himself in.

The political environment in King's landing. Ned's CSI investigation.

The first book was dense with memorable moments; not to mention the second and third.

[kairparavel]

I finished it yesterday after only getting to spend hours at a time reading. It's been some 17 hours and I've talked some things out with MC and he and I definitely disagree on some of what's happened: our interpretation of events, our feelings on it, our hopes going forward. One thing we do agree, overall, is a level of dissatisfaction. Now, being dissatisfied doesn't mean I hated it. I didn't. There were some 'Fuck yeah!' moments, namely Jonas Slynt. I did keep reading it, but I wasn't super excited to see what was happening next like in Kings or Swords. Much like Feast, I kept waiting for the big payoff at the end but walked away with a feeling of 'Really? THAT's it?' At least from Feast, in my mind, I walked away excited about Dorne and Quentyn's mission and hoping that something_really_bad was coming for Cersei.

And uh, uh?

Rockroi nailed it on the head in his review. The tension and buildup and then…nada. I honestly felt like Jon had died there for a few moments as I began the next chapter but then I drifted all the way back to the prologue and got worried he'll warg into Ghost. I'd rather he be dead. But really, he's not. And I'm not sure I can ever trust anyone to be dead again, until I read it. Like Quentyn. Cause I was certain he survived.

Words are Wind

We have almost a 1000 pages and a lot of the time it felt like wind. Examples include the prologue where hey, Jon might be a warg! So when he's jumped 900 pages later, there's an out to his death. Quentyn's entire storyline, as it turns out, was to release the dragons and let us all know that having blood of the dragon wasn't enough to 1) not burn and 2) tame and fly them. Ok, thanks.

All that teasing, things left unsaid and cliffhangers. When Bran was in the weirwood at Winterfell and we were oh_so_close to getting to the bottom of Jon's parents…I laughed. Really. Good on ya, George! I thought. We'll get to it eventually. But then more and more and more. We can lean more in the direction of Tywin not being Tyrion's father now, right? And his not getting the flux means something, right? Ashara Dayne was pregnant and miscarried? Can we believe than any baby from that timeframe actually died? They were all smuggled out, weren't they? And has been pointed out, that font of knowledge Selmy could have enlightened Dany on some very important things but ah, we'll get to that in book six? Brienne? How'd you get here? If you're going to introduce more questions, shouldn't you at least answer some as well? If you're going to introduce a new cavalcade of side characters, shouldn't you wrap up some of the old ones, just a teensy bit? There's a thread on retconning that I've not read yet, but how much has there been to just make any of this work? I spent far too much time thinking about traps and making predictions instead of just reading it for what it is. Much of that is on me, trying to be clever, but some of that is how this story is unfolding and that feeling that you can't trust anything that you've read because it might all change or a lord's lord's exiled wife's sister's cousin who once read a story about the Doom or knew the Starks or had tea with an Other might show up pages later to do..something..nothing..distract.

Look, I don't want things just handed to me as a reader. And I certainly don't want a 5 page outline of how this entire thing plays out. But the writing here, stylistically and organizationally was different. There was a reach exceeding grasp that was desperately trying to pull it all in again and some things fell through fingers, hopefully to be picked up again in book six. For me, the repetitive phrasing and words (MC who was ahead of me all book pointed out that George really took a liking to feeding people neeps) was an example of reading something by someone who really struggled. We know he did but it felt like at some point someone somewhere said 'Put down your pencil and hand your paper forward. Time's up'. And that's what we got.

Having said that, I liked and loved:

Reek/Theon's chapters were my favourite and they really gave you a two-for one deal in what was happening to him AND the north.

Jon's dealing with Jonas Slynt. It was never directly referenced, but I'm glad that Stark/Slynt story came full circle. In fact, Jon's dealing with everything pleased me. He's smart, he makes the tough and unpopular decisions and he understands that years of history and tradition will not defeat the approaching enemy.

People knowing that Bran and Rickon are out there.

The wildlings.

Cersei's march of shame (though her parts and Jaime's felt like they should have been in Feast).

Frey pies.

I greatly disliked:

Um, the Bravosi banker was somehow able to make it through all that snow to get to Stannis? Really? It was a nice plot device to deliver Theon and Jeyne I suppose, but still. Really.

I really greatly, wholly, fully disliked and raged in the moments after:

When did Varys start moving the pieces on the board instead of just whispering strategy into the player's ears? Above all else, the invisible hand physically touching the cyvasse board really pissed me off.

The rest kinda left me meh. And with questions like, so was Bran always destined to this? Or was it when the direwolves came and he broke his back? What does Dany's miscarrying mean? She was miscarrying, wasn't she? Who the fuck is Jon Connington? No really. What's the importance of the grayscale, now that you have two named characters on Westeros with it. Do you realize how many characters are traveling with or come in contact with red priests? Is that important?

Mostly, I'm just pissy that it'll be another X number of years before we get any closer to resolution on any arc. And I think that's perfectly ok to say. Part of me thinks that it might have been better to wait longer to get something a bit tighter, but most of me knows that it would have resulted in some level of dissatisfaction no matter what. And there's no way this will conclude in seven books. But I am interested in seeing how it all plays out and if it meets up with how I think it will/should end. I remain hopeful.