[ADwD Spoilers] Well That Was Disappointing

[Sega AM2]

Did anyone who read book 4 actually think book 5 would be full of action? Book 4 and 5 cover the intermission between act 1 (book 2/3) and act 2 (book 6/7).

Yes, especially since GRRM said that book five extended chronologically further than book four. I expected conflict emerging somewhere towards the end of the book. The title is "A Dance with Dragons" implying something with live Dragons or Targs having a civil war of some sorts even. So many on this board predicted that a Mummer's Dragon in the form of still alive Baby Aegon would pop up. And that New Aegon would battle Dany and she would slay him. "Slayer of lies". There was no Dance with Dragons in this story. The Dragons remained chained up until the very end of the book basically.

And we knew that Stannis was gearing up for a war campaign possibly augmented by the Wildlings he had converted over. We knew that the Martells and the Lannisters and at the tipping point with each other. And we know that The Others are close to knocking down The Wall. But nothing really happens.

We basically see nothing. Asha gets captured but she and Theon fail to witness a potential battle over Winterfell. Dany meanders in Meereen and doesn't wage a war or use her Dragons as a show of force like a nuclear deterrent. And The Others sit on their frozen thumbs. Even Aegon's advancement in Westeros is stopped and withheld until the sixth book.

We also know that a few major events were moved from ADWD to TWOW including two at the very last minute. The Brienne chapter of Jaime fighting The Hound in front of Lady Stoneheart? Jon arising as Azor Ahai? Asha rescuing Theon? Damphair going completely insane? Moved to TWOW. Even an extra Davos chapter of him finding Rickon would have advanced the plot greatly which will probably happen in TWOW.

It is a river that had to be crossing in the grand overarching plot, and in a story as big as ASOIAF it covered two companion novels. Did the story go where I thought it would? no. Did Character's stories advance less than I thought they would? Yes, but given that that has been true for all five books I'm not surprised. Did I enjoy the book for what it was? yes.

This last book was GRRM on his way to pulling a LOST. He introduces far more questions than answers. He throws in new characters and new POVs while not fully resolving stories of currently existing characters. And he slowly, snail's pace, moves towards the end game.

The sixth book needs to be action packed to make up for the last two books. Especially if GRRM wants to keep to the seven book maximum. But if we are still with Dany in Meereen. The Wall is still up and The Others are still on ice. Tyrion and Jon don't reach Dany and start to ride Dragons. We'll be waiting for book ten in the next decade with still no answers. Either that or GRRM just blows the ending completely, LOST style, and answers hardly any questions and says "but it was always about the characters".

[Faranya]

See, I enjoyed most of ADwD, except Quentyn and Dany (who bored me out of my skull)

The only thing is, very little happened, and what did happen happened mostly off screen. So, Dany listens to a bunch of whinging Meereenese about their tedious problems, while the dragon-capture goes on (off screen).

Meanwhile, Quentyn, Tyrion, and Victarion have largely uneventful voyages. Quentyn and co get attacked by corsairs (off screen), Victarion captures ships (off screen), and Tyrion is captured by slavers (off screen). Quentyn fights (off screen) in Astapor.

Jon Snow does inventory and handles logistics, while Stannis and his men supposedly fight and lose in an epic confrontation (off screen). Theon is abused horribly (thankfully off screen), takes Moat Cailin without a fight and then in Winterfell notes the (off screen) deaths of a number of Bolton's men.

Hell, the only real action that occurs ON screen is Bran and Co with the wights (after a rather tedious journey north), Cersei's penitence, the Stone Men, Dany while with Drogon, Theon's escape, Arya's assassination, and Jon's death. Which seems like a lot, but doesn't come close to filling out the whole book.

[Lannister_Lion]

So what were the names of the books any of you guys (people moaning it wasnt very good) released in the interveening 6 years?

Oh you didnt write any?

Didnt think so.

There are more than 4 relevant people in the fate of Westeros -

If you struggle to keep up with the pace of the story (that includes its slow spells), go back to reading Potter.

[Faranya]

So what were the names of the books any of you guys (people moaning it wasnt very good) released in the interveening 6 years?

Oh you didnt write any?

Didnt think so.

There are more than 4 relevant people in the fate of Westeros -

If you struggle to keep up with the pace of the story (that includes its slow spells), go back to reading Potter.

I also didn't tell anyone I was going to be releasing any books in that period of time. In fact, were I asked, I would have specifically said I wouldn't. I fail to see how not being a recently published author negates my ability to point out that the book could have been more enjoyable than I actually found it.

[Lannister_Lion]

I also didn't tell anyone I was going to be releasing any books in that period of time. In fact, were I asked, I would have specifically said I wouldn't. I fail to see how not being a recently published author negates my ability to point out that the book could have been more enjoyable than I actually found it.

All the incessant whining sets my teeth on edge, especially when its pretty obvious the author had an incredibly tough time writing this, why bemoan it?

George R R Martin is in the midst of an epic piece of writing and the (so called) fans are slating his work, missing soooooo many points clearly illustrated in this book.

I wonder why he bothers after reading some of the posts here.

[Total Depravity]

So what were the names of the books any of you guys (people moaning it wasnt very good) released in the interveening 6 years?

Oh you didnt write any?

Didnt think so.

There are more than 4 relevant people in the fate of Westeros -

If you struggle to keep up with the pace of the story (that includes its slow spells), go back to reading Potter.

Epic fail @ reason and logic. He didn't write a book so he can't critique a book? Then you insult someone you disagree with instead of providing evidence to back up your argument? The pace of the story had nothing to do with people "keeping up with it". You see, when something crawls at a snail's pace, it is easy to keep track of. Just ragequit the forums next time.

Now moving on. I was disappointed by a few things (characterization regression in Dany and Jon, narrative structure enslaved to arbitrary chronology imposed by splitting POVs, cliffhangers). I also loved a few things (North POVs, Bran, Janos Slynt, Frey pies, Sir Barristan, Fried Quentyn). While I loved the book because I love the series, I was disappointed most in the editing (as were most of the major reviews of the book.

I am holding out hope that most of the disappointments will be cured by a re-synced timeline in the next two books.

All the incessant whining

You seem to be the one refusing to engage in legitimate dialogue. And incessant whining is very different from a critical reading of the text. I am a huge fan of the series, but I recognize that a lot of the stuff posted here is legitimate, even if it didn't bother me as much.

[TheReader]

So what were the names of the books any of you guys (people moaning it wasnt very good) released in the interveening 6 years?

Oh you didnt write any?

Didnt think so.

There are more than 4 relevant people in the fate of Westeros -

If you struggle to keep up with the pace of the story (that includes its slow spells), go back to reading Potter.

C'mon, dude. Ever criticized a professional athlete, in any sport? A professional musician or actor or artist of any kind? A politician? Given the overwhelming odds that you do none of those things professionally, by your logic there you'd have to refrain from critiquing them in any way. Doesn't seem like life works that way, fortunately for conversation and the ability of all to have opinions.

[-eX-]

All the incessant whining sets my teeth on edge, especially when its pretty obvious the author had an incredibly tough time writing this, why bemoan it?

George R R Martin is in the midst of an epic piece of writing and the (so called) fans are slating his work, missing soooooo many points clearly illustrated in this book.

I wonder why he bothers after reading some of the posts here.

Because being a fan doesn't mean you have to sheepishly like everything.

[SwordoftheMorning]

All the incessant whining sets my teeth on edge, especially when its pretty obvious the author had an incredibly tough time writing this, why bemoan it?

George R R Martin is in the midst of an epic piece of writing and the (so called) fans are slating his work, missing soooooo many points clearly illustrated in this book.

I wonder why he bothers after reading some of the posts here.

This!

It irks me to no end, the whining and complaining in this thread. I've been following this series since 1998. So I endured the wait for Storm of Swords, Feast and now Dance. After reading Dance, the only complaint I have is that it will be a minimum of 2 years and prolly double that before the next book. I loved the sweep, the twists, the emotion, the heartbreak of Dance. I love THE SERIES. The turned up nose, dismissive, know it all attitude of most post here are exactly the reason GRRM emphatically states he doesn't read message boards even this one. Good for him.

[Lannister_Lion]

Har! Sheepish? I dont think so - I APPRECIATE effort, those who are so full of criticism, seem to have missed the point; this book was about advancing prophesy and it did. If it was a little slow it was pretty obvious it was far from easy to write.

Surely sheepishly accepting what the mobs and masses are saying is much easier than arguing something I alone seem to believe.

Fair enough some of you didnt like/get it.

Whining like spoiled children reminds me why they used to use bootheels as a crying aid.

[CelticBrennus]

It irks me to no end, the whining and complaining in this thread. I've been following this series since 1998. So I endured the wait for Storm of Swords, Feast and now Dance. After reading Dance, the only complaint I have is that it will be a minimum of 2 years and prolly double that before the next book. I loved the sweep, the twists, the emotion, the heartbreak of Dance. I love THE SERIES. The turned up nose, dismissive, know it all attitude of most post here are exactly the reason GRRM emphatically states he doesn't read message boards even this one. Good for him.

Amen. Its been 2001 for me, but spot on.

[Lannister_Lion]

Nice one Sword, and I didnt mean to turn this into a flame war, its 3am, I'm exhausted and logged in hoping to read how people had enjoyed the book, whilst I am waiting to read it again, also I actually enjoy reading others interpretations of the series direction.

I would have been wiser to sheepishly walk away though

;)

[acadia]

The book shows the problems of grrm's "Gardener not architect" way of storytelling: He seems to just write something that meets his fancy and hopes it will add up in the end. It worked in the first books but now it looks like he completely lost his story: nearly no advancement with Dany (well, she now rides a dragon but that does not justify boatloads of pages about her trouble with the Mereenese) and Jon spent 12 chapters to prepare for the defense of the wall only to grab the Idiot Ball in the last (probably grrm realized that he needs Jon without his vows?) I have no idea what is won by introducing yet another faction to the civil war (no one will survive the winter at this rate, we got it) and Tyrion's travels were not THAT gripping either (I nearly believed he drowned in the Rhoyne. No, just kidding).

After reading Dance I seriously doubt that this series will ever be finished, I would not even count on a sixth book

Wheel of time in the making, or even worse , it turns into the crap that became the sword of truth series, by Goodkind, utter garbage after the first few books. Or maybe he'll finish it in like 35 years, ala, Steven Kings the Dark Tower series.

You know what made the Lord of Rings interesting, each book on it's own had a freaking point, and yes the adventure was continuing but atleast you felt like a ok, the journey in this book took us somwhere.

Right now I feel like I'm trapped in a 25 year soap serial, ala days of our lives. Yes, yes, I know we need caracter development. But 1000 pages of it, geez... and yes, Danearys and Jon are young, and stupid, 16 year olds trying to play leaders, come now, we know in the real world they'd get eatan alive, but you don't have to go through 1000 pages of that ot explain it we get it.

And the Martell chapters, man, you could have skipped like everything and have them show up at court, get rejected, try and steal some dragons and die. That's all we really needed. Victorian chapter again could have been left out all together ,

Maybe this is just a set up book, and I"m asking too much. But I've had 2 books of this now, a aaFfc and adwd, if twow, is some more of this ...t, we officially walked into the realm of yet another fantasy series that destroys itself by getting way to caught up in it's grandeur. twow better bring some carnage, intrigue, and plot movement.

[Gargantuanjon Old Chap]

All the incessant whining sets my teeth on edge, especially when its pretty obvious the author had an incredibly tough time writing this, why bemoan it?

George R R Martin is in the midst of an epic piece of writing and the (so called) fans are slating his work, missing soooooo many points clearly illustrated in this book.

I wonder why he bothers after reading some of the posts here.

QFT this and Sotm. Thanks.

All the whining reminds me why literature is going down the effing gutter this side of year 2000.

[emmank]

The Theon story arc in this book was near-perfection. I've never much cared about Theon either way until this book, but going from "Reek" back to "Theon" and what he says to Asha in the end nearly made me weep. I wish GRRM would use the ADwD Theon arc as a guideline for all character arcs for the remainder of the series.

I'll eventually read the Tyrion chapters, but I basically just skimmed them. They were hard to get through, for me. And I'm just too invested in King's Landing intrigue to not feel a tinge of bitterness about having to read Meereen intrigue instead.

[-eX-]

I have my reasons why I was disappointed by the book and I can assure you, it wasn't that I "didn't got it". I am fully aware what this book is and what it wanted to do. I just don't liked huge parts of it, that is all. That doesn't mean that I didn't enjoyed it overall nor that I think GRRM is suddenly writing crap, but I do think it could have been a lot better with some changes.

I dislike whining as much as everyone else, but not all criticism equals whining!

[Khakiass]

I am one who enjoyed Dance.

If I had a criticism it would be that it lacks a climax of action, or contained setpiece similar to those in earlier volumes: think Red Wedding, Battle of the Blackwater, or Petyr's machinations revealed. The plot certainly advances in Dance, but the threads are left unfinished at the end of the book: the battle for Mereen, Jon's struggles at The Wall, disposition of Winterfell, etc., although I do appreciate the implied closure with Dany and the Dothraki.

There's also very little that feels joyous or a success for our PoVs which as a reader makes me, for lack of a better term, "happy" for these characters we've come to love. Aside from Arya, things are grim all around at this point, with even Bran learning to greensee apparently coming at the (eventual) cost of his body and human connections. Whether it's Dany clearing the Plaza of Pride with the Unsullied or Jon throwing back the Wildlings, it is these small "victories" that make rereading the books enjoyable, at least for me. It will take a bit of time for me to want to jump back in to experience the shared frustration, failure, and hanging on by fingernails that these characters are experiencing now.

[Kalbear]

Please, just for the sake of this thread and others:

It never leads to anything good to complain about whiners. Never. Some people enjoyed the novels more than others. As long as they can reasonably express why their disappointment exists, that's a reasonable discussion. Shouting them down because they don't agree with you makes a whole lot of unpleasantness overall.

There are plenty of threads to discuss why you enjoyed it. Heck, make a thread complaining about the whiners. But don't derail folks who genuinely have criticisms that (largely) GRRM agreed with.

[acadia]

The Theon story arc in this book was near-perfection. I've never much cared about Theon either way until this book, but going from "Reek" back to "Theon" and what he says to Asha in the end nearly made me weep. I wish GRRM would use the ADwD Theon arc as a guideline for all character arcs for the remainder of the series.

I'll eventually read the Tyrion chapters, but I basically just skimmed them. They were hard to get through, for me. And I'm just too invested in King's Landing intrigue to not feel a tinge of bitterness about having to read Meereen intrigue instead.

Yes, theons arc was excellent, next I would say maybe tyrion and Jon. DAny yawn, great she finally dis something, she goes from marrying Kahl Drogo to some who ... Bran, you mean I waited all this time to find out, Bran is going to be a tree? talk about the anti-thesis of the luke I am your father moment. Victorian, don't care, Asha was actually pretty interesting, first time, GRRM really got a battle in.

[Lannister_Lion]

The Theon story arc in this book was near-perfection. I've never much cared about Theon either way until this book, but going from "Reek" back to "Theon" and what he says to Asha in the end nearly made me weep. I wish GRRM would use the ADwD Theon arc as a guideline for all character arcs for the remainder of the series.

I'll eventually read the Tyrion chapters, but I basically just skimmed them. They were hard to get through, for me. And I'm just too invested in King's Landing intrigue to not feel a tinge of bitterness about having to read Meereen intrigue instead.

I got the feeling it was the Tyrion chapters that were toughest, causing the delay - they are well worth getting to grips with though, some great stuff is in there - Dany's rescue is pretty special.

Totally agree about Theon's PoVs - GRRM did the to me with Jaime, now I'm like his staunchest ally lol though I dont have that kind of hero worship for Theon, I did find his chapters chilling and exhilarating.

Cheers also Gargantuan, as someone else pointed out - I'm glad GRRM doesn't read the forums, but I know people close to him do, I'd like him to hear there are some of us that get it, rather than the masses that dont.