Thoughts on The Dagger

[Lucreel]

There are 2 or 3 points in the book where characters speculate on who sent the catspaw with The Dagger, to kill Bran. . .

So, several characters have come to the conclusion it was likely Joffrey who sent the catspaw to kill Brandon in Winterfell. The big question would be, why would Joff try to have him killed?

I can only think of one thing. I don't know why I remember this, but it kind of stuck out in my mind at the time. There's a scene where the boys are in the practice yard (before Bran is crippled), and Brandon beats rickon at stick-fighting, and I think Rickon starts crying.

I remember thinking at the time that Joffrey struck me as just the sort of kid who would take great offense at anyone have the gall to beat Rickon at stick fighting and make him cry.

Wouldn't that just be perfect if much of the chain of events that follows was started by the pique of a spoiled brat completely over-reacting to his little brother being defeated by another little kid at stick fights?

[Slychd]

There are 2 or 3 points in the book where characters speculate on who sent the catspaw with The Dagger, to kill Bran. . .

So, several characters have come to the conclusion it was likely Joffrey who sent the catspaw to kill Brandon in Winterfell. The big question would be, why would Joff try to have him killed?

I can only think of one thing. I don't know why I remember this, but it kind of stuck out in my mind at the time. There's a scene where the boys are in the practice yard (before Bran is crippled), and Brandon beats rickon at stick-fighting, and I think Rickon starts crying.

I remember thinking at the time that Joffrey struck me as just the sort of kid who would take great offense at anyone have the gall to beat Rickon at stick fighting and make him cry.

Wouldn't that just be perfect if much of the chain of events that follows was started by the pique of a spoiled brat completely over-reacting to his little brother being defeated by another little kid at stick fights?

I think it is generally accepted that

Joffrey hired the assassin after hearing Robert state that it would be merciful to put Bran out of his misery rather than let him live as a cripple. Joffery supposedly did it to impress Robert, who rarely had any interest in him.

[Hear Me Roar!]

There are 2 or 3 points in the book where characters speculate on who sent the catspaw with The Dagger, to kill Bran. . .

So, several characters have come to the conclusion it was likely Joffrey who sent the catspaw to kill Brandon in Winterfell. The big question would be, why would Joff try to have him killed?

I can only think of one thing. I don't know why I remember this, but it kind of stuck out in my mind at the time. There's a scene where the boys are in the practice yard (before Bran is crippled), and Brandon beats rickon at stick-fighting, and I think Rickon starts crying.

I remember thinking at the time that Joffrey struck me as just the sort of kid who would take great offense at anyone have the gall to beat Rickon at stick fighting and make him cry.

Wouldn't that just be perfect if much of the chain of events that follows was started by the pique of a spoiled brat completely over-reacting to his little brother being defeated by another little kid at stick fights?

Wait, what?

Joffrey is mad that Bran beat his own little brother and made his own little brother cry, so Joffrey tries to kill Bran?

Confused, I am. I think you meant Tommen?

[Lucreel]

Wait, what?

Joffrey is mad that Bran beat his own little brother and made his own little brother cry, so Joffrey tries to kill Bran?

Confused, I am. I think you meant Tommen?

Oh, you're probably right. It might have been Tommen - I guess he would have been more the same age as Rickon. I remembered *one* of the brothers made him cry, and for some reason I was thinking it was Bran, but now you mention it, I think you're right.

So, it still leaves a bit of a puzzle as to *why*. I suppose it might be like the other poster said, and Joffrey just following up on Robert's cold notion.

I sometimes wonder if there's something we didn't know about Joffrey. . . like maybe he knew about his uncle and his mother, and somehow found out that Bran had seen them in the tower. That's pure, rampant speculation, of course. There's no real evidence to suggest that, other than the fact that he tried to have Bran killed.

I mean, I know Joffrey was fond of killings, but I have a hard time believing even *he'd* try to kill Bran for no reason other than that Robert said it would be a "mercy", but perhaps that's it.

[Hear Me Roar!]

Oh, you're probably right. It might have been Tommen - I guess he would have been more the same age as Rickon. I remembered *one* of the brothers made him cry, and for some reason I was thinking it was Bran, but now you mention it, I think you're right.

So, it still leaves a bit of a puzzle as to *why*. I suppose it might be like the other poster said, and Joffrey just following up on Robert's cold notion.

I sometimes wonder if there's something we didn't know about Joffrey. . . like maybe he knew about his uncle and his mother, and somehow found out that Bran had seen them in the tower. That's pure, rampant speculation, of course. There's no real evidence to suggest that, other than the fact that he tried to have Bran killed.

I mean, I know Joffrey was fond of killings, but I have a hard time believing even *he'd* try to kill Bran for no reason other than that Robert said it would be a "mercy", but perhaps that's it.

I just didn't understand why Joffrey would be mad that Bran made Rickon cry. Rickon isn't Joffrey's brother, but Tommen is, so I assumed you meant Tommen was the one who was made to cry.

[Saren Snow]

Yes Bran fought Tommen and made him cry.

I can't see this leading to Joffrey trying to kill Bran though. I assumed it would be either to impress Robert/ as revenge for Arya attacking him can not remeber whetehr the timeline supports this though

[Lucreel]

I just didn't understand why Joffrey would be mad that Bran made Rickon cry. Rickon isn't Joffrey's brother, but Tommen is, so I assumed you meant Tommen was the one who was made to cry.

Oh man, name soup. I'm sorry, there are just so many characters in the story, sometimes I have a hard time keeping names straight. Yes, ok, Joffrey's little brother Tommen was crying after getting beaten by one of the Stark boys, I think it was Brandon, but *might* have been little Rickon.

I'm not saying that is why he tried to kill Bran, I'm just saying, given all we've seen of Joffrey's character, I could at least believe he'd try to do that - because he loves to overreact to things and try to kill people who don't kiss his arse.

[An Ironborn Son]

I know that the Joffery theory supports at least how Tyrion believes that things might have went down but I still see the whole thing as being orchestrated by Littlefinger. It would even make sense to me that he would have the blade linked back to him in some obscure way that he could later attribute to someone else.

From my own understanding, Joff didn't like Robert at all so I can't see any real reason for him to want to prove anything to Robert. The King's whole, "he'd be better of dead" would be such a throwaway comment and for his son to pick up on it just seems contrived. What it seems to illustrate more to me is Tyrion trying to make Joff into a monster so he doesn't feel as bad that he's dead.

[Viper89]

i agree with the post above, there are quite a few little hints that he had something to do with it, its one of those things that i doubt will be anyone obvious and he seems to do things that on the surface you really dont know why

ps - how do you put the spoiler bits in, i didnt want to mention the name

[Lucreel]

i agree with the post above, there are quite a few little hints that he had something to do with it, its one of those things that i doubt will be anyone obvious and he seems to do things that on the surface you really dont know why

ps - how do you put the spoiler bits in, i didnt want to mention the name

The forum software interprets text in square brackets [] as tags.

To start the spoiler block, put the word spoiler in square brackets. To end it, do the same, but put a forward slash / in front of the word spoiler:

[spoiler]Text of spoiler[/spoiler]

[The Non-Human]

What it seems to illustrate more to me is Tyrion trying to make Joff into a monster so he doesn't feel as bad that he's dead.

Joff doest need any 'making'. He was a monster. Also, IIRC, Joff did try to impress Robert when he was little, to no avail. When he heard the comment, maybe he unconsciously did it to impress him. Or maybe just for the hell of it.

[Arya79]

The only answer I could think of is that maybe Joffrey knew Cersei and Jaime's secret and the ramifications it would have for him if people found out. I couldn't imagine Joffrey doing anything that wasn't completely self-serving. However, there is nothing in the books to support this theory.

[Silmarien]

There are 2 or 3 points in the book where characters speculate on who sent the catspaw with The Dagger, to kill Bran. . .

So, several characters have come to the conclusion it was likely Joffrey who sent the catspaw to kill Brandon in Winterfell. The big question would be, why would Joff try to have him killed?

I can only think of one thing. I don't know why I remember this, but it kind of stuck out in my mind at the time. There's a scene where the boys are in the practice yard (before Bran is crippled), and Brandon beats rickon at stick-fighting, and I think Rickon starts crying.

I remember thinking at the time that Joffrey struck me as just the sort of kid who would take great offense at anyone have the gall to beat Rickon at stick fighting and make him cry.

Wouldn't that just be perfect if much of the chain of events that follows was started by the pique of a spoiled brat completely over-reacting to his little brother being defeated by another little kid at stick fights?

Joff, caring about a Stark, or caring about anybody's feelings? PFFFFT! No way.

More likely he was hungry for attention from his "father", King Robert, and thought he might get kudos for putting Bran out of his misery.

[Alan of Rosby]

If he

Joff, caring about a Stark, or caring about anybody's feelings? PFFFFT! No way.

More likely he was hungry for attention from his "father", King Robert, and thought he might get kudos for putting Bran out of his misery.

That would take stupidity to a whole new level.

Joffrey wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed, but I really think that Littlefinger was involved somehow. Maybe in suggesting the idea to him, maybe pointing out how pleased Robert was when Tywin showed him the "dragonspawn".

[Chatayas]

So far as we are aware, Joffrey tried to kill Bran to impress Robert and make himself feel more like his "father's" son. Cersei says at some point in the story how when Joffrey was younger he killed something and showed it to the king to obtain his approval (I can't exactly remember what or why), only to get hit by Robert for it. Even though Joffrey was more or less ignored by Robert, he still admired Robert for the battle prowess he displayed during the battles against the Mad King and wanted to be like him. Children who receive little praise from their parents try all the more to impress them.

As far as Littlefinger being involved or the mastermind behind it all, it's possible. It may be true that Joffrey had nothing to do with it at all. Petyr gained Ned's trust (so he could betray him) and put the blame of the assassination attempt on Tyrion (furthering Stark-Lannister animosity) by Cat coming to King's Landing. He knew of her arrival in the city immediately, and told the lie about the dagger being Tyrion's. The more I think about it, the more sure I become that it was Littlefinger. I was just thinking it was probably him who convinced Joffrey to behead Ned Stark when everyone else was saying to let Ned take the black........

[Silmarien]

So far as we are aware, Joffrey tried to kill Bran to impress Robert and make himself feel more like his "father's" son. Cersei says at some point in the story how when Joffrey was younger he killed something and showed it to the king to obtain his approval (I can't exactly remember what or why), only to get hit by Robert for it. Even though Joffrey was more or less ignored by Robert, he still admired Robert for the battle prowess he displayed during the battles against the Mad King and wanted to be like him. Children who receive little praise from their parents try all the more to impress them.

As far as Littlefinger being involved or the mastermind behind it all, it's possible. It may be true that Joffrey had nothing to do with it at all. Petyr gained Ned's trust (so he could betray him) and put the blame of the assassination attempt on Tyrion (furthering Stark-Lannister animosity) by Cat coming to King's Landing. He knew of her arrival in the city immediately, and told the lie about the dagger being Tyrion's. The more I think about it, the more sure I become that it was Littlefinger. I was just thinking it was probably him who convinced Joffrey to behead Ned Stark when everyone else was saying to let Ned take the black........

I think you are right, Sir (or Lady).

In the book, we are told that Joffrey, when a young child, was told that there was a cat in the kitchens who was pregnant - they thought he might want a kitten when the litter was born. Instead, Joffrey found a knife and cut the litter from the cat's womb (killing her and the kittens). He showed them to his father, hoping for approval, but got whipped (I think Robert hit him, and Cersei for protesting).

Nice little serial killer in the making, isn't he? And as for being clever, Joff never showed much penchant for wits beforehand.

[hesitantreader]

It would have been very easy to double check if the story Littlefinger told about the dagger was true, and Littlefinger is only around because the Stark's failed to do any further investigation in regards to the dagger.

Littlefinger the idiot is almost as out of place as Joff the clever. I think there is more to this story, which hopefully we may learn in the future.

[SummerGhostofNymeria]

It would have been very easy to double check if the story Littlefinger told about the dagger was true, and Littlefinger is only around because the Stark's failed to do any further investigation in regards to the dagger.

Littlefinger the idiot is almost as out of place as Joff the clever. I think there is more to this story, which hopefully we may learn in the future.

I think in my opinion it's safe to say that Littlefinger's knowlege of the dagger is what we know as readers that Joff did this, "planned" it (although terribly), and that the only reason Littlefinger said anything was to build a larger sense of distrust amongst the Starks where the Lannisters are concerned.

Littlefinger has done everything only to further himself, and put himself in a better position to gain power, but in a way that isn't outright noticeable.

I don't know if there's more to it than that, really. However, I'm not the author so I could definitely be wrong.

[Horza]

Well, the author says the mystery of who sent the assassin is resolved in Storm of Swords, so I think you're pretty safe.

[HaraktheHirsute]

There was nothing about Tommen crying, only trying to get up after Bran knocked him down.

BTW, I'm thinking Littlefinger had a hand in it, but I don't think Joffrey had nothing to do with it. Remember the exchange between Tyrion and Joff after the latter cut that book to ribbons.