[ADWD Spoilers] Theon Greyjoy

[Pale_Valkyrie]

Now that he's been tortured he regrets the loss he's suffered, but I don't think he's regretted what he's done, morally I mean, not simply thinking it was stupid.

And Robb. Robb who had been more a brother to Theon than any son born of Balon Greyjoy's loins. Murdered at the Red Wedding, butchered by the Freys. I should have been with him. Where was I? I should have died with him.

How can you read that as anything but regret he betrayed Robb, because Robb was his *real* brother? Not because it was strategically stupid, but because it was wrong?

[Jeejee]

How can you read that as anything but regret he betrayed Robb, because Robb was his *real* brother? Not because it was strategically stupid, but because it was wrong?

Actually, I thought his betrayal of Robb was the only thing he unreservedly felt guilt over, instead of pity for himself. He's still upset that, when he captured Winterfell, "none of them would help me." He's particularly callous about the two boys he killed - they're "only miller's sons," not Bran or Rickon, so they don't matter - and says that the miller's wife is a comfort that he will never experience again. His memories seem a mixture of guilt, rationalization, self-pity, and nostalgia.

He's pitiful and I'm surprised by how much I care for his character, but he's still a jackass.

[melicorn]

While castrating Theon has greatly improved my opinion of him, I still wouldn't say I like him. Even now I'd be more like to punch him than hug him. I think for me the real issue is not the betrayal of the Starks and the sack of Winterfell. I mean, if I hated everyone in the book who betrayed someone close to them, I could count the characters I liked on one of Theon's hands. It has more to do with his treatment of the captain's daughter, Kyra, Asha (who remains the only likable Ironborn for me), and other women in general. While I liked his chapters in ADWD more and I do find him to be an interesting character to read, that aspect of his personality hasn't really changed much as far as I can tell, so I don't see redemption as a possibility yet.

Also, I think it's possible that the younger child of the miller's wife could have been his kid, which leaves a nagging bad feeling.

From a literary standpoint, I have really been enjoying his chapters as a parallel to Arya's. She seems to temporarily be getting stronger as she forgets who she is (or tries to), but I think GRRM is foreshadowing through Theon that won't end up working for her in the end.

[pow]

He did some jackass things and paid dearly for those choices. Hes one of favorite characters from a dance with dragons. Hes not the same jackass he was before you can count on that.

[LannisterStark]

While castrating Theon has greatly improved my opinion of him,

Is it clear that Theon has been castrated?

[melicorn]

Is it clear that Theon has been castrated?

I don't wanna believe in a world where this hasn't happened. :P

[lady crackhead]

Also, I think it's possible that the younger child of the miller's wife could have been his kid, which leaves a nagging bad feeling.

He fucked a miller's wife at 14? Blame Ned for not giving him a curfew.

[Envie]

You know, I never thought I'd feel sorry for Theon. I honestly felt like he had it coming to him after all the betrayals and his snarky attitude when he went home, and even his licentious behavior (though not as bad as some in the story!)...

But GRRM did a bang up job of making me actually pity the poor guy with all that horrible torture he endured and the gollum-like creature he's become because of it. Eww.

[Jeejee]

I don't wanna believe in a world where this hasn't happened. :P

This is being argued over on the Reek thread.

[melicorn]

He fucked a miller's wife at 14? Blame Ned for not giving him a curfew.

Well, he's 20 in ASoS, right? And Rickon is just turned 5, so he'd have been 15 or thereabouts. Tyrion married the crofter's daughter when he was a year older, so it seems possible to me. Not necessarily likely, but certainly possible.

[Cricket]

Theon in ADWD is one of the best characters. The fact that so many people consider him to be a jerk who deserves what he gets, while still many others believe he's a sympathetic tragic figure attest to just how realistically he is written. The most memorable characters in fiction are subject to multiple interpretations, because they're multi-dimensional and not just cardboard cutout personalities.

Personally, I side with the camp that views Theon as a more tragic figure. I guess many people before me have laid it out in greater detail but it's clear Theon was never actually a truly horrible person. He made one stupid decision after another and things eventually spiraled beyond his control. I think he truly is remorseful, not because things turned out so badly for him but because he's ashamed of what he's done. He's hasn't come right out and admitted to everything he's done wrong yet, but that too is realistic. The full weight of his sins are coming to him gradually and it's painful. Naturally coping with all of it takes time.

I still see Theon ultimately dying though. He's regained his identity, but he's too broken to live the life he yearns for. All that's left for him is redemption and an ironborn-worthy death.

Oh, and I don't believe Theon's castrated, but who knows, maybe Ramsay was taking notes from Shagga and had some hungry goats...

[pow]

Reek it rhymes with meek. My favorite chapters by far!

[Plumed Quetzalcoatl]

The scene where Theon is begging the Old Gods to help him and he hears Bran call out his name is the most powerful scene in ADwD.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

Is it clear that Theon has been castrated?

Ramsay rose, the firelight shining on his face. "Reek, get over here. Get her ready for me."

For a moment he did not understand. "I... do you mean... m'lord, I have no... I..."

"With your mouth," Lord Ramsay said. (p. 499)

This seems pretty clear to me. Theon has been gelded. One shudders to think about how that went down.

[Must Needs]

Is there no one GRRM can't redeem? Next book will we get Ramsay POVs and end up forgiving him for making his new wife have sex with a dog...

[NoOne]

I always had sympathy for the guy. Mostly I think because he reminds me of so many of the men I've known with daddy issues and fractured senses of home, that act out because of it (drugs, drinking, etc.), but that are generally great guys when given the appropriate emotional support structure. Instead of hating Theon through ACOK, I was constantly disappointed in his poor choices that kept getting poorer. I was moved by his soul-search in ADWD, more so than any of the other character arcs of the story.

I should probably hold the Miller's kids against him more than I do, but I can't seem to hold Bran against Jaime, or Mycah against the Hound either. Mostly because it's fiction, and that kids weren't real, but also because so many people have died in this book that forgiving characters that truly regret their misdeeds has become more satisfying to me than continuing to think they should suffer.

I have to admit early on I could care less about Theon, you know IMO his character arc was.. meh?? But as we moved through each ugly moment of his "life choices" (and let's face it, his were as bad as you could get) I felt absoulute horror reading the "Reek" chapters, very moving and gut wrenching. The violent and terrible times these characters live in are described by GRRM to a point you feel like you are living it!!! Great detail, great writing.

[Nightstar]

I think Theon has largely redeemed himself through saving Jeyne.

After all, he could have leapt from the battlements without her, especially since she was the one who gave them away, albeit unintentionally.

But he took her with him, although she must have been a burden and slowed him down.

[Kanyin Snow]

As I was reading I absolutely thought he lost his member and thought holy cow how ironically awful for Theon. But then there was a quote where he is talking to Rowan. He gets mad because he thinks she's making fun of him and he says he wants to hit her and smash her face, kiss her, f___ her, "but he dare not touch her, in anger or in lust." He doesn't say that he can't but that he not dare. I have no idea what Ramsey did to him but it don't think he cut it off.

[Miriamele]

Actually, I thought his betrayal of Robb was the only thing he unreservedly felt guilt over, instead of pity for himself. He's still upset that, when he captured Winterfell, "none of them would help me." He's particularly callous about the two boys he killed - they're "only miller's sons," not Bran or Rickon, so they don't matter - and says that the miller's wife is a comfort that he will never experience again. His memories seem a mixture of guilt, rationalization, self-pity, and nostalgia.

He's pitiful and I'm surprised by how much I care for his character, but he's still a jackass.

I think he's saying that they were only miller's sons over and over because he's trying to convince himself that they were not important. To me it's the sign of feeling guilty and trying to suppress his guilt.

He wasn't a horrible person, and had emotional issues, childhood traumas, insecurities. When he took Winterfell he thought a lot about how people who previously liked him now turned on him, didn't help him, and felt guilty about what he did to them. He probably wanted to be accepted and more than anything. Because of his upbringing he felt as an outsider everywhere. (It actually happens in RL to some mixed-race children or emigrants who don't really feel at home in there new country but they aren't at home in their old country anymore)Remember how he always smiled? And we know he wasn't really happy, he did it to hide his insecurity.

But he also murdered children and betrayed those who trusted him. Robb had done nothing bad to him. In a way he deserved what he got, on the other hand what happened to him is truly horrible and I really feel sorry for him.

Someone mentioned on the forum, the fingers he lost were not the ones needed for archery, so I hope he does some damage to Ramsay and co with a bow. It was also interesting how well he got on with the dogs. Could it backfire to Ramsay that he wanted to make a dog of Theon? Maybe he sets the dogs at him but the dogs wouldn't hurt Theon because they know and like him but attack Ramsay at his command?

[Frakkin Kraken]

Someone mentioned on the forum, the fingers he lost were not the ones needed for archery, so I hope he does some damage to Ramsay and co with a bow. It was also interesting how well he got on with the dogs. Could it backfire to Ramsay that he wanted to make a dog of Theon? Maybe he sets the dogs at him but the dogs wouldn't hurt Theon because they know and like him but attack Ramsay at his command?

I would love to see Ramsay get death a la Theon more than anyone, but I doubt it's really a possibility. I feel at this point like that is too tidy of a way to wrap up their association and if there is one thing that Theon and Ramsay's ..."relationship" is, it is messy as hell.

I'm throwing in with those who predict that he and Asha are going to contest the kingsmoot, but I also really see no way that could possibly go right. Even if Theon does still have all his man-bits, he's clearly a very broken men and the Ironborn are no more likely to follow a khal who cannot ride than the Dothraki are. Maybe he'll clean up well, but it doesn't really bode well that Asha didn't even recognize him upon their reunion.

Also, I just wanted to say that there are some really awesome posts on this thread. Theon's been in my top five characters since ACOK and this book was borderline traumatic for me, haha! Since I was only discussing these books with close friends and family before I have had a lot of Theon-defending to do. The only time I remember defending a fictional character this much was Saul Tigh in Battlestar Galactica...