[ADWD Spoilers] Theon Greyjoy

[Whatever]

Okay, now tell me when i defended jaime for pushing bran out of the window. did you even read my first post here? n82.

I actually said that i hate how many people on the boards are jaime fans and still hate theon for killing 2 boys. It doesn't make any sense if you compare Theon killing 2 kids to Cersei killing Robert's bastards, LF betraying ned, Victarion the reaver, or Roose Bolton being a complete monster - and still those characters don't get half the hate theon gets.

HERE IT IS

The only "bad" thing Theon has done, as far as I remember, has been killing those two kids back in Clash. Yes, i agree, killing children is a horrible thing, but 1)They are fictional characters. Also, fictional characters we've never heard of before they got killed. I don't think anybody on these boards cared about them as characters 2)Jaime, who is in many posters' top 10 (i like him too) has done exactly the same thing, trying to kill a kid back in Thrones. A kid who is a POV, a kid we cared for. Way more important then the miller's sons. Almost every single character i can think about has killed children, (Cersei, Victarion, the Hound) and/or has been an indirect cause of death for many people, including children. IMO, people are really overreacting whe it comes to Theon...........I seriously don't know what to think when i read things like "yes, theon deserved it, i hope ramsay cut his penis off!" next to phrases like "Don't make me rue the day i raped you mother, ohhhh, roose is so baddas, i love him!"

I like jaime, as i like theon, but i'm still aware that jaime is/was a shit. I also said that i like Jaime WAY more than i'll ever like barristan, or arthur dayne, Ser Whoever In Shiny Armor because he's not as hypocritical as they are/were :)

And about the lying to Tyrion part - i talked about that too.

Theon has always been alone, isolated from anybody else, he had a childhood WAY crappier than Jon's (or even Tyrion's IMO), "too stark" for his family and "too greyjoy" for the starks. He did the only thing he could think about to gain his father's respect. Doesn't it remind you of anyone?

He reminded me A LOT of tyrion trying to gain Tywin's respect, anyhow (before getting smart and killing him! Way to go!), Jaime doing the same (which include lying to tyrion), Jon trying to be the Son Of The Year and so on.

And, anyway, talking about the whole Tysha thing, you can't really blame Jaime. That was Tywin's doing - and yet Tywin is considered a "magnificient bastard" and is WAY less hated than theon is

[iamthedave]

The strange thing is I really like Tyrion , who the case can me made is a complete dirtbag also , but his crimes are usually an act of revenge ,etc. I really don't see him acting in cold-blood , and never against innocents.

And yet the one person in the entire world of Westeros who was unreservedly loving to Tyrion was Jaime. Dance makes this point completely unambiguous. We all have our own take on the Tysha debacle (mine is that Jaime was doing what his incredibly forceful, domineering, controlling father told him to do, the same way Tyrion and Cersei have their whole lives), but the fact remains Jaime loved and still loves Tyrion, and is probably the only person in the entire series who does.

With the exception of his new dwarf lass.

He reminded me A LOT of tyrion trying to gain Tywin's respect, anyhow (before getting smart and killing him! Way to go!), Jaime doing the same (which include lying to tyrion), Jon trying to be the Son Of The Year and so on.

You missed out Robb. Him and Jon were definitely both competing for Son of the Year. I think Jon actually hired a Faceless Man to arrange the Red Wedding because he realized Robb was going to win towards the end, because Robb not only had mastered Starkian angst, he had an ACTUAL REASON, whereas most of Jon's had to be exagerrated. Nobody could compete against that.

Seriously, though, fathers cast long shadows in this world (especially Wyman Manderly, or perhaps that should be 'vast' instead of 'long'). The one exception would seem to be the Baratheons, where the father of the Baratheon brothers is never mentioned.

[Brokowski]

I would love to see Ramsay get death a la Theon more than anyone, but I doubt it's really a possibility. I feel at this point like that is too tidy of a way to wrap up their association and if there is one thing that Theon and Ramsay's ..."relationship" is, it is messy as hell.

I'm throwing in with those who predict that he and Asha are going to contest the kingsmoot, but I also really see no way that could possibly go right. Even if Theon does still have all his man-bits, he's clearly a very broken men and the Ironborn are no more likely to follow a khal who cannot ride than the Dothraki are. Maybe he'll clean up well, but it doesn't really bode well that Asha didn't even recognize him upon their reunion.

.

The Ironborn do have the whole "What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder and stronger" saying, and while he didn't literally die, Theon was dehumanized to the point where one could say he died spiritually. Assuming he can recover a little bit more physically, I think they'd eat his story up. I don't think it's common that someone survives the Dreadfort with their sanity mostly intact, so I wouldn't be shocked if he endears himself to the folks on Iron Island.

[Knight of Ashes]

Okay, now tell me when i defended jaime for pushing bran out of the window. did you even read my first post here? n82.

I actually said that i hate how many people on the boards are jaime fans and still hate theon for killing 2 boys. It doesn't make any sense if you compare Theon killing 2 kids to Cersei killing Robert's bastards, LF betraying ned, Victarion the reaver, or Roose Bolton being a complete monster - and still those characters don't get half the hate theon gets.

HERE IT IS

I like jaime, as i like theon, but i'm still aware that jaime is/was a shit. I also said that i like Jaime WAY more than i'll ever like barristan, or arthur dayne, Ser Whoever In Shiny Armor because he's not as hypocritical as they are/were :)

And about the lying to Tyrion part - i talked about that too.

He reminded me A LOT of tyrion trying to gain Tywin's respect, anyhow (before getting smart and killing him! Way to go!), Jaime doing the same (which include lying to tyrion), Jon trying to be the Son Of The Year and so on.

And, anyway, talking about the whole Tysha thing, you can't really blame Jaime. That was Tywin's doing - and yet Tywin is considered a "magnificient bastard" and is WAY less hated than Theon is

Heh. I remember when I first red the Theon POVs, my first reaction was "wth? This guy's an ass." At the time, I was still under the impression that POV chapters were reserved for what were more or less, the good guys (even though, there were things about them that gave me pause)

Still, there were things one could uncomfortably relate to upon rereads: the conceits that a lot of people have but tend to hide from oneself, the need for approval from distant father figures, the identity issues eventually yielding the epiphany that the "noose around around his (my) neck was not made of hempen rope and it chafed him raw" nonetheless.

I've no interest in defending what he did to the miller's children but I do have some understanding of what it's like to find oneself doing things one thought would never do. So certainly, as a POV, he was certainly an interesting read and as a character, I find him more relatable than I care to admit to.

[iamthedave]

And let's add that anyone who likes Victarion and hates Theon for 'what he did' is a blazing hypocrite. Objectively, Victarion is at least as bad and logically far worse given he has no remorse whatsoever, isn't apologizing for anything and has done a lot MORE of the objectionable acts he's guilty of.

Burning a shipful of innocent women to death, anyone?

[Knight of Ashes]

And let's add that anyone who likes Victarion and hates Theon for 'what he did' is a blazing hypocrite. Objectively, Victarion is at least as bad and logically far worse given he has no remorse whatsoever, isn't apologizing for anything and has done a lot MORE of the objectionable acts he's guilty of.

Burning a shipful of innocent women to death, anyone?

To this day, I can't do anything more than skim through Victarrion's chapters so I've little idea what he's done ; I keep hearing Arnold Schwarzenneger's voice every time I try.

[Dolorous J]

To this day, I can't do anything more than skim through Victarrion's chapters so I've little idea what he's done ; I keep hearing Arnold Schwarzenneger's voice every time I try.

:rofl:

[Sivin]

He's a coward . Killing an innocent miller's children ? Betraying your best friend ? Allowing youself to be degraded in public to the point of becomong "reek" ??

He's the biggest coward in the book....the only reason he had the nerve to attempt escapse is because he was basically forced , then the moment he does escape "cocky" Theon reappears ?? Complete coward and douche bag. The fact that some people like him is laughable to me. :rolleyes:

I disagree, I think that Theon is the most heroic character in this series. (Maybe with Tyrion being up there with his defense of Kings Landing)

I mean, seriously, the man captured the capital of the a kingdom with like fifty men, then determined to hold it against an army with something like 17 men. That smacks of heroism in my book. Bold moves and a refusal to give up is what makes a hero. And I haven't seen anyone in this series who has made more bold moves or gone through as much crap as Theon Greyjoy, The Prince of Winterfell.

[LordBloodraven]

From Clash:

I bet it was Theon who's the author of the bite marks on Jeyne Poole's body. I despise Theon truly. His fate is tragic with many identity problems but I don't care about him. And I will never forgive the bastard for shagging Kyra in Ned Stark's bed.

[Sivin]

And I will never forgive the bastard for shagging Kyra in Ned Stark's bed.

Is that a joke?

[Nihilist]

Is that a joke?

At least it is an original reason for hating Theon. I mean I was getting sick of that "he killed children" one.

[Darth Dragonstone]

I disagree, I think that Theon is the most heroic character in this series. (Maybe with Tyrion being up there with his defense of Kings Landing)

I mean, seriously, the man captured the capital of the a kingdom with like fifty men, then determined to hold it against an army with something like 17 men. That smacks of heroism in my book. Bold moves and a refusal to give up is what makes a hero. And I haven't seen anyone in this series who has made more bold moves or gone through as much crap as Theon Greyjoy, The Prince of Winterfell.

That's certainly the way Theon saw it all.

Unfortunately, he reached too far for too much with too little and paid a horrific price for it, to include responsibility for the pointless, unnecessary deaths of nearly everyone under his command and protection at Winterfell.

Theon is a callow, idealistic, vainglorious young man who feels entitled to leadership, recognition and success just because he is Theon Greyjoy. He is not without ability and not completely unlikeable. But one thing that the novels clearly show is that he thought he was ready for prime time, but when he got there he found himself a boy amongst men, shattered by the reality and finality of the Game of Thrones, ground into paste by hard men like the Boltons, men he saw as his peers when in truth he was only qualified to be their squire.

Damphair and Balon had Theon pretty well pegged.

What will be interesting going forward it so see if Theon has learned anything from his ordeal. Has it been a crucible which will turn him into a real Ironman... has it shattered him completely?

[LordBloodraven]

Is that a joke?

That's one of the reasons I despise him, seriously. Theon was a real ass throughout ACOK and Karma hit him with interests. He was in denial throughout that book, not knowing that he couldn't hold Winterfell, and would never be loved by people (like Farlen, Mikken) for whom he will ever be the "turncloak". Then faking Bran and Rickon's death, and yes, killing the miller's children. And last, being very very stupid the way he dealt with Reek. Did he really think that the guy was going to gather an army of northmen loyal to HIM while he pretended to be the "prince of Winterfell"? The worse was that he thought the price was cheap i.e. the rape of Palla.

And all that to please people who didn't give a damn about him!!

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

Theon Greyjoy is "the most heroic character in the whole series"? More heroic than, say, Barristan Selmy, who bumrushes a dragon in full attack mode to save Dany? Or Jon Snow, who goes against centuries of history to save the lives of the wildlings from the Others, wights, and coming winter? Or even Yoren, who saves his charges Arya and Gendry several times from capture and death, sacrificing his life in the end? I mean, I know it's cool to defend a character who is seen by many as a villain, but the hyperbole is just too much here.

[LordBloodraven]

Theon Greyjoy is "the most heroic character in the whole series"? More heroic than, say, Barristan Selmy, who bumrushes a dragon in full attack mode to save Dany? Or Jon Snow, who goes against centuries of history to save the lives of the wildlings from the Others, wights, and coming winter? Or even Yoren, who saves his charges Arya and Gendry several times from capture and death, sacrificing his life in the end? I mean, I know it's cool to defend a character who is seen by many as a villain, but the hyperbole is just too much here.

He has nothing of a hero, from what we saw. He's just a failure, that we empathize with cause all his family members are dickheads. By saving Jeyne, maybe he can redeem himself but somehow I see him inside a crow cage!!

[lady crackhead]

Theon didnt kill the miller children. He agreed to Reek's plan to have them killed. And their mother, someone he's slept with before, more than once. So many people leave her out. Is she not innocent enough, because she slept with him?

When he's brought down so low he has nothing to fall back on. Rather than rely on 'honour' or 'gods' or something else to drag him out of it, Theon's just Theon. A man brought to his lowest point, having to stand or fall based on who he is at his base roots.

Yes, this. I never have read in his story or character any of the romanticism that is frequently shown on the threads. I was totally misled when I spoiled myself here, thinking the character had become something he is not.

[lady crackhead]

That's one of the reasons I despise him, seriously.

This is funny, but typical.

Theon is showing serious daddy issues when he gets so excited about fucking Kyra in Ned's bed.

[LordBloodraven]

Theon didnt kill the miller children. He agreed to Reek's plan to have them killed. And their mother, someone he's slept with before, more than once. So many people leave her out. Is she not innocent enough, because she slept with him?

Yes, this. I never have read in his story or character any of the romanticism that is frequently shown on the threads. I was totally misled when I spoiled myself here, thinking the character had become something he is not.

It's because he said yes to Reek's plan that the miller's sons were killed at the end of the day and for that he's guilty. Tywin Lannister, in the same way is responsible for the murder of Rhaenys Targaryen and Elia Martell, because the buck stopped at him.

[rue721]

He's just a failure, that we empathize with cause all his family members are dickheads.

Exactly. And also because for a long time he was just a vainglorious naif who was so ignorant/innocent he didn't even know he was. The fact that heroism *doesn't* come naturally to him, that he had lots of ego, etc, is why I find him interesting and empathize with him. And why it will be meaningful to me if he does become a hero *eventually.*

Liking a character doesn't have to = admiring a character. Liking a real life person doesn't have to = admiring that person, for that matter.

ETA:

I have a hard time liking or admiring Theon. Even his will to live is not wholly admirable to me. However, I can immensely enjoy reading about characters I don't like or admire, and Theon is one of them. He is a great character, beautifully written.

I've always liked Theon -- he's always looking for a joke, he's a bitch whenever possible (and when not possible, he'll think bitchy thoughts anyway), he's always looking for a way to steal some glory for himself. Those are all terrible impulses, nothing admirable about them. But his irreverence and capriciousness endear him to me anyway, just because of my personal taste.

It's been interesting, to me, to watch those impulses draw him into depravity -- such as to the point of killing out of convenience -- and it'll be interesting, to me, to watch those impulses re-emerge now that he's in a changed state. What is going to be different and what's going to stay the same? My favorite scenario is him getting iron teeth and everyone being creeped out by his constant smile again. :P.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

Theon gives the order for the miller's children and wife to be killed. Ramsay merely made a suggestion, gave him a plan. He did not order Theon to do anything, and indeed was in no position to give orders at that point. The murders are on him, no way around it. That Ramsay advised it in no way mitigates his responsibility. He had free will, he made choices.

ETA: I have a hard time liking or admiring Theon. Even his will to live is not wholly admirable to me. However, I can immensely enjoy reading about characters I don't like or admire, and Theon is one of them. He is a great character, beautifully written.