BrosBeforeSnows Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Well if its any consolation I myself was blissfully unaware that the sap may be blood until I finished Dance and came on to the board. The theme of cannibalism throughout the book gives credence to this theory & Jojen saying that Bran is "not the one who has to be afraid :shocked: ". It makes sense. We first hear of the "Rat King" from Bran... which is a tale of cannibalism, AND is referenced again in ADwD in regards to Wyman Manderly and his (supposed) Frey Pies. And I agree with whoever said that something isn't quite right with those CotF. You know, it's possible the First Men and the Andals had a reason for wanting them out of Westeros... But, if it is true that Jojen has been cannibalized, and Meera, for whatever reason, hasn't, it could have something to do with his green dreams, I would imagine. Or they may both be dead. Perhaps the CotF realize they'll die anyway, and will become wights if they allow them to leave... so they killed them and extracted whatever "nourishment" they could from them, because they are more practical and less sentimental about death than humans are (i.e. the body is just a shell, the soul goes on to "great mother", or some Avatar-kind-of shit like that). I just read a weird article the other day about cannibalism. It was all about the practicality of it, claiming that if humans weren't so hung up on death and corpses, we could reduce the world starvation rate by about 40% if we simply ate our dead. Not something I could see myself ever getting over, but GRRM does describe the smell of burnt human as being strikingly similar to cooked pork... so who knows. And if the CotF are as totally hippied-out (i.e. "in tune with nature"), and as non-human as we're lead to believe, killing people to prevent them from becoming wights, and consuming their dead carcasses to prevent starvation, may seem like the practical thing to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNinja Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 It makes sense. We first hear of the "Rat King" from Bran... which is a tale of cannibalism, AND is referenced again in ADwD in regards to Wyman Manderly and his (supposed) Frey Pies. And I agree with whoever said that something isn't quite right with those CotF. You know, it's possible the First Men and the Andals had a reason for wanting them out of Westeros... But, if it is true that Jojen has been cannibalized, and Meera, for whatever reason, hasn't, it could have something to do with his green dreams, I would imagine. Or they may both be dead. Perhaps the CotF realize they'll die anyway, and will become wights if they allow them to leave... so they killed them and extracted whatever "nourishment" they could from them, because they are more practical and less sentimental about death than humans are (i.e. the body is just a shell, the soul goes on to "great mother", or some Avatar-kind-of shit like that). I just read a weird article the other day about cannibalism. It was all about the practicality of it, claiming that if humans weren't so hung up on death and corpses, we could reduce the world starvation rate by about 40% if we simply ate our dead. Not something I could see myself ever getting over, but GRRM does describe the smell of burnt human as being strikingly similar to cooked pork... so who knows. And if the CotF are as totally hippied-out (i.e. "in tune with nature"), and as non-human as we're lead to believe, killing people to prevent them from becoming wights, and consuming their dead carcasses to prevent starvation, may seem like the practical thing to do.Maybe Howland Reed was eaten by Bloodraven so that he could have greendreams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 The situation North of the Wall is boring, seeing as there's nothing left alive in the Haunted Forest. All the exciting action is happening around Winterfell, and further south. Hence, for narrative purposes, I would expect Bran to join the action sooner rather than later. No, I think it far more likely it that Bloodraven will leave to join the action down south. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miriel Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 No, I think it far more likely it that Bloodraven will leave to join the action down south.He has a tree growing out of him, he can't leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 He has a tree growing out of him, he can't leave. Right now he can't, but if Bran takes his place in the tree allowing his current body to die, a sorceror as powerful as he is can find himself another host - like Hodor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miriel Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Right now he can't, but if Bran takes his place in the tree allowing his current body to die, a sorceror as powerful as he is can find himself another host - like Hodor.Quite sure he could warg Hodor or any other being anytime he chose, given that he is a powerful sorcerer. he did not need to go to the elaborate trouble of dragging Bran/Jojen/Meera/Hodor all the way up to the cave to warg and escape. And why would he need Bran to take his place to allow his current body to die? Leaf says he is staying alive waiting for Bran. Surely that is not just so he could do something bad like permanently warg Hodor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Yes but if he is bound into the tree its pretty standard folkloric stuff to require someone to take his place in order to free him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yakman Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 I didn't find the Children dark and creepy at all. I found them sad. The last remnants of a dying culture. People jump to strange conclusions. Bran is going to leave the cave as soon as his training is done. It would have been 5 years when the 5 year gap still existed, now it will be faster, probably due to his "greater talent"."Bran" as we know him is never going to leave the cave. He may well warg into something else, but the little boy who loved to climb, his body, is never going to leave the cave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 "Bran" as we know him is never going to leave the cave. He may well warg into something else, but the little boy who loved to climb, his body, is never going to leave the cave. I agree. Whether Bran is intended to replace a dying Bloodraven or whether as I suspect he is to be exchanged for Bloodraven's freedom, he isn't there to be taught the mysteries of life the universe and everything and then sent out into the world to preach the good word. He's in there to be bound to the tree and his training is to that end alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VivaVictarion2 Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 people are theorizing that Jojen may have ended up in the weirwood seed paste that Bran eats. he sees veins of sap that look like blood in the paste. How did THIS become a credible theory? when i first heard it suggested, it was laughed out of existence...or so I thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daenerys snow Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 I wonder if the sacrifice Bran sees is from the time of the Andal invasion? The captive may be an Andal. The First Men used bronze, the Andals brought iron with them to Westeros, IIRC. The sacrifice is before the tree, so the Children could see it, and a bronze weapon is used to cut the captive's throat. Perhaps it has to do with the relations between the Children and the First men? Just a thought ... probably not. bran was tuned in to the weirwood tree in winterfell's gods wood. he was seeing it through time and at the time of the sacrifice/execution there did not seem to be a winterfell so it probably took place before it was built. this would make that incident as having happened before the arrival of the andals and after the first men decided to go native and took on the cotf's gods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 probably not. bran was tuned in to the weirwood tree in winterfell's gods wood. he was seeing it through time and at the time of the sacrifice/execution there did not seem to be a winterfell so it probably took place before it was built. this would make that incident as having happened before the arrival of the andals and after the first men decided to go native and took on the cotf's gods. Or perhaps more precisely it was the blood sacrifice which first bound the Starks to the Children and the Old Gods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocBean Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 I found another clue that might point to Jojen Paste:On the Kindle for ipod version: Page 542 of 1024, Theon goes to the Godswood.This isn't the scene where he hears his name, but he does hear something from the Hearttree."Please," he murmured through his broken teeth, "I never meant..." The words caught in his throat. "Save me," he finally managed. "Give me..." What? Strength? Courage? Mercy? Snow fell around him, pale and silent, keeping its own counsel. The only sound was a faint soft sobbing. Jeyne, he thought. It is her, sobbing in her bridal bed. Who else could it be? Gods do not weep. Or do they?The sound was too painful to endure. Theon grabbed hold of a branch and pulled himself back to his feet, knocked the snow off his legs, and limped back toward the lights. There are ghosts in Winterfell, he thought, and I am one of them.In hindsight we can see that this is Bran crying. But why would he be crying? Not because of Theon surely, maybe because he just found out Jojen is dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hotweaselsoup Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 I found another clue that might point to Jojen Paste:On the Kindle for ipod version: Page 542 of 1024, Theon goes to the Godswood.This isn't the scene where he hears his name, but he does hear something from the Hearttree.In hindsight we can see that this is Bran crying. But why would he be crying? Not because of Theon surely, maybe because he just found out Jojen is dead.I interpreted the sobbing to be Theon himself. He is so disassociated at this point, he doesn't even recognize that he is the one crying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Efilnikufesin Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 I found another clue that might point to Jojen Paste:On the Kindle for ipod version: Page 542 of 1024, Theon goes to the Godswood.This isn't the scene where he hears his name, but he does hear something from the Hearttree.In hindsight we can see that this is Bran crying. But why would he be crying? Not because of Theon surely, maybe because he just found out Jojen is dead.Good pickup, forgot about that. Not sure what it means but I like it.Couple of things I would like to add, One there's a reason the Andals cut down almost all of the weirwoods in the south and it wasn't because the magic of the CotF was making too many cute fuzzy bunnies appear. Isn't it said they shattered the Arm of Dorne?Two, (more food for thought) what are weirwood seeds exactly? Don't see anyone noticing seeds falling off these like acorns do, So where does one get weirwood seeds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relic Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 We are told the paste would help make Bran a green seer. IF Jojen was eaten (and im far from certain that is the case) it's because he has the green sight and the CotF/BR think feeding him to Bran will pass on that talent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kephv Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 Well if it was Jojen, apparently he tastes pretty damn good. Combine that with them eating human earlier and loving it (the black brothers coldhands gives them and says it's pig), Wyman's love for Frey, and the fact that it's apparently a delicacy on Skagos, I'm wondering if GRRM is trying to tell us something here?I'm actually going to be a bit disappointed if Rickon hasn't eaten a few humans when he returns. I've had the most lovely mental image of him and Wyman bonding over a nice Frey and Bolton pie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hotweaselsoup Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 Well if it was Jojen, apparently he tastes pretty damn good. Combine that with them eating human earlier and loving it (the black brothers coldhands gives them and says it's pig), Wyman's love for Frey, and the fact that it's apparently a delicacy on Skagos, I'm wondering if GRRM is trying to tell us something here?Words are wind, but meat is meat? Eat your enemies? The whole blood for power, human sacrifice, cannibalism theme is so meaty in asoiaf. In some ways, it's a riff on the catholic communion ritual - eating and drinking the flesh and blood of a powerful life will confer that power on you.I'm actually going to be a bit disappointed if Rickon hasn't eaten a few humans when he returns. I've had the most lovely mental image of him and Wyman bonding over a nice Frey and Bolton pie.He already had a lick of Maester Luwin's blood, from Shaggydog's muzzle. Dun dun DUN ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sleepymoon Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 I can never believe that Jojen is in that paste! I love the Reeds, and I don't think Martin can be that cruel.If Bran ate Jojen, his faithful friend and the one who led him to his destiny, what's the point of the whole journey and even the whole life of Bran?I have a faith on Martin, Jojen may be die, but not in this way. :devil: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Efilnikufesin Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 I can never believe that Jojen is in that paste! I love the Reeds, and I don't think Martin can be that cruel.If Bran ate Jojen, his faithful friend and the one who led him to his destiny, what's the point of the whole journey and even the whole life of Bran?I have a faith on Martin, Jojen may be die, but not in this way. :devil:If it makes you feel any better, it's a good possibility Meera might be in the paste instead of Jojen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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