[ADwD Spoilers] Meera and Jojen cliffhanger?

[Francis Buck]

In the end too oversimplify it. Are the CotF truly evil for working towards their own goals? Are the CotF truly siding with humanity? Are the CotF evil for NOT trying to side with humanity? Keep in mind, they aren't human and were in fact almost slaughtered to the point of extinction by humanity..

Agreed. Honestly I don't really think either the Children or the Others will end up simply being "good guys or bad guys". They merely have their own goals and motivations, which may or may not conflict with the goals and motivations of certain other parties (just like everything else in the series).

That being said, I do have a growing suspicion that the Children and the Others are "one the same side", for lack of a better phrase. I also think the recorded history of Westeros is not very reliable. Even the maesters can't decide when the Andals came. In fact GRRM has brought up numerous discrepancies about the exact history of the world within the series, even stating that after a certain amount of time "history becomes inseparable from legend" (not exact wording, but close enough). I think this will probably apply very meaningfully to what we "know" about the Others, let alone things like Azor Ahai and the precise role of the Children of the Forest. I'd bet money that nothing is as it seems in those areas.

[strangejosh]

Where is it explicity stated that Bran has to stay in the bowels of the weirwood with the children forever? All Bloodraven said was that he would need years of training and that he will never walk but can learn to fly. Bloodraven had a long life as Kings Hand and then NW Commander and he was known for his sorcery then. He is wedded to the tree now to extend his life. At some point Bran will be able to leave the weirwood and perhaps be Lord of Winterfell if he wants. When he is old or needs to train his replacement he would return and be wedded permanently to his own weirwood to extend his life.

Interesting, but I still don't think he will leave.

[angelodebo]

Agreed. Honestly I don't really think either the Children or the Others will end up simply being "good guys or bad guys". They merely have their own goals and motivations, which may or may not conflict with the goals and motivations of certain other parties (just like everything else in the series).

That being said, I do have a growing suspicion that the Children and the Others are "one the same side", for lack of a better phrase. I also think the recorded history of Westeros is not very reliable. Even the maesters can't decide when the Andals came. In fact GRRM has brought up numerous discrepancies about the exact history of the world within the series, even stating that after a certain amount of time "history becomes inseparable from legend" (not exact wording, but close enough). I think this will probably apply very meaningfully to what we "know" about the Others, let alone things like Azor Ahai and the precise role of the Children of the Forest. I'd bet money that nothing is as it seems in those areas.

I agree the Children and the Others could be working together. I believe "Winter is Coming" shows the relationship between the Starks and the Others. I just started thread in the Winds of Winder forum about this idea. Obviously the Children are working with Bran, have been waiting for Bran, and maybe they are relying on Bran to lead the Others down on Westeros this coming winter.

[Wouter]

I agree the Children and the Others could be working together. I believe "Winter is Coming" shows the relationship between the Starks and the Others. I just started thread in the Winds of Winder forum about this idea. Obviously the Children are working with Bran, have been waiting for Bran, and maybe they are relying on Bran to lead the Others down on Westeros this coming winter.

So Bran wants the world to be icecold, covered in darkness and all living things to be dead? And so do the Starks in general, because their words are "Winter is coming!"!? :bang: :shocked:

And I thought the Starks had that as their words to remind people to prepare for winter, in order to not starve or freeze to death when it does come.

[Efilnikufesin]

So Bran wants the world to be icecold, covered in darkness and all living things to be dead? And so do the Starks in general, because their words are "Winter is coming!"!? :bang: :shocked:

And I thought the Starks had that as their words to remind people to prepare for winter, in order to not starve or freeze to death when it does come.

Nobody said that Bran wants to make the world into ice, but many believe he is being mislead. He may inadvertently be doing so. I'm not saying he is going to do it but at this point you can't rule it out either.

[HouseofStark]

GRRM has said that it will turn out the Others are not the embodiment of evil, so arguing that the Children can't possibly be the Others because they're not Evil doesn't work.

where did GRRM say this? and is it on a site somewhere so i may read it? i'm not disputing what you're saying i'm just curious by the implication.

[lostcause]

Ah but you're missing the point. Its not a question as to whether the Children are Evil, but whether the Others are as Evil as they're portrayed - not least by the Red lot. GRRM has said that it will turn out the Others are not the embodiment of evil, so arguing that the Children can't possibly be the Others because they're not Evil doesn't work.

No he never said they are not evil. When someone asked if they truly were he said something along the lines of "You'll have to wait and see" - Which he knows of course will start people theorising. They can still be just as evil as the legends and signs say they are.

[David C. Hunter]

The Others being 'pure' evil is a complete contrast to how GRRM writes his characters. I thought he has been on the record saying that he was going to avoid the whole 'Evil Dark Lord' enemy.

Every chapter is written in a way to make us feel a certain way and if the caves the hold the COTF make most of us feel creepy, sad, uneasy or depressed, thats for a reason. If the COTF were the embodiment of good, GRRM wouldnt have emphasized the bones on the floor, or the human sacrifices. Personally I fear the COTF way more than I fear the White Walkers.I think the Children want revenge, thats my opinion, either that or they see the future or the world and see an opportunity to make better lives for themselves than just hiding in a cave. Maybe Bloodraven wanted to help them.

But I agree that the Starks, Children and White Walkers have a history and connection. Im also a fan that the HeartTrees are actually greenseers that became one with the trees. Pretty much what BloodRaven is. Makes sense to me and would be an incredible twist. Bran seeing the Bloodsacrifice was for a significant reason.

Bottomline what I think many people are missing is that 'Winter is Coming' regardless of the white walkers, COTF, the return of the starks and the Battle for the Dawn, Winter is Coming. And it will be a long one that will cover all of Westeros. Many Many people will die and pretty much all 7 kingdoms have not prepared for it.

This is the time of Winter and the Kings of the North. Regardless if Dany saves the day and burns everything in sight, Winter is still Coming. It isnt going to magically go away because the Others are defeated. Thats why the 7th book is called a 'Dream of Spring'. Emphasis on the word 'Dream'. This series will not end with flower petals blooming. The bitter sweet ending for me is that the Others/Dragons will be defeated and maybe the 7 kingdoms will be reunited, but now there will be a generation of winter, haha.

But who other than the old Kings of Winter can bring the 7 kingdoms through the long winter?

Its IMO that at the end of the series Magic will be either completely eradicated or in full force. But IMHO, The white walkers and maybe the COTF will be for the Starks and the north what the Dragons were to the Targaryans and the South. Maybe Aegon will see the White Walkers, dead horses and pale spiders and bend the kneee just like T. Stark when the dragons first came.

[FanTasy]

Nice post, David C Simmons!

Not at the first read, but at the re-read it struck me how subtle and smoothly the supposed evil forces or by that matter the not evil forces could be dished up for us.

There may be even a nice touch of serving us information in the names GRRM chose.

The Others - brrr ... people who are the others are not like us, they could be not friendly to us: beware!

The Children of the Forest - big smile - who doesn't like children? They can't be bad. And especially not if they like trees. Trees are good. Well, there were some nasty trees in LOTR who would swallow you whole. And GRRM gives us elsewhere in the books some not so subtle warning of children who are not nice and downright dangerous.

Mind you, it is still very unclear and we will have to wait and see. The Children of the Forest may as well be what we are supposed to think: the kind little helpers of humankind. And The Others may as well be the Evil Empire of Ice.

[Wouter]

The Others being 'pure' evil is a complete contrast to how GRRM writes his characters. I thought he has been on the record saying that he was going to avoid the whole 'Evil Dark Lord' enemy.

Uhm, Gregor, Ramsay, the Astapor slavers? Pretty pure evil characters, the Astapori even were charicatures.

There is no indication of an "evil dark lord" - we have no idea who leads the Others or even how they are organised ("the Great Other" is likely another Melisandre mistake). That doesn't change the fact that the Others are out to kill humans though, as far as we know pretty much any human they encounter (Craster maybe an exception, but how long would that have remained so?). From the perspective of the wildlings, the watch, and for anybody in the north (or wherever, if on the path of the advancing others) after the Others break through the Wall, they are pretty much evil by virtue of being on a campaign of extermination.

[Black Crow]

From the perspective of the wildlings, the watch, and for anybody in the north (or wherever, if on the path of the advancing others) after the Others break through the Wall, they are pretty much evil by virtue of being on a campaign of extermination.

But are they?

We've seen them nipping at the heels of Mance's trek, just enough to keep them moving but not doing any serious harm.

I've been discussing this on another threal on the general forum, there's something funny going on here. Apart from Old Nan nobody south of the Wall appears to know anything about them or have any inkling of a building threat.

North of the Wall, Mance Rayder, we're told, has spent years persuading and cajoling absolutely everybody except Craster to rally to him and march south to get across the Wall ahead of them.

Why?

I can easily believe it took years, but what did he have to do to convince them that a couple of years down the line they were all going to have to up sticks and fight their way over the Wall?

Then when he does get them moving down the Milkwater, as I mentioned before, the Nights Watch is all set to ambush his trek and cut it to pieces, only right at the very last minute, the night before they're due to ride out, the Night's Watch gets attacked by the White Walkers and their Wights, who effectively wipe them out and then having cleared the way for Mance slip away again, apart from that odd little bit of nipping at their heels, just enough to keep them moving.

What does Mance really know?

[HouseofStark]

Apart from Old Nan nobody south of the Wall appears to know anything about them or have any inkling of a building threat.

i'm not sure if that is really indicative of anything for a couple of reasons. for one, we're only treated to a little slice of life in the North with the Starks. Who is to say that there aren't a hundred other nan's telling their children these stories. also, by the amount of time people make jokes about grumpkins, i think it's a fair assumption that people outside of the North do know the stories. secondly, maybe they are more prevalent in the North, and Nan in particular, because it is a regional thing. The people in the North are the ones who live with the Wall to their backs, therefore it makes sense that many of their stories would deal with it and the things that lay behind it. also, just in a practical way of looking at things, when i lived in greece the stories i heard growing up were the myths of my people. i was aware of norse and egyptian mythology but that isn't what permeates in the culture. likewise, i'd think that remains true in Westeros. I'm sure there are stories in Dorne and Essos that don't get more airtime than the ones from Old Nan.

[tze]

The Others being 'pure' evil is a complete contrast to how GRRM writes his characters. I thought he has been on the record saying that he was going to avoid the whole 'Evil Dark Lord' enemy.

He basically has said that here: http://www.infinityp...ion/intgrrm.htm

The battle between good and evil is a legitimate theme for a Fantasy (or for any work of fiction, for that matter), but in real life that battle is fought chiefly in the individual human heart. Too many contemporary Fantasies take the easy way out by externalizing the struggle, so the heroic protagonists need only smite the evil minions of the dark power to win the day. And you can tell the evil minions, because they're inevitably ugly and they all wear black.

I wanted to stand much of that on its head.

In real life, the hardest aspect of the battle between good and evil is determining which is which.

Making the Others "the great evil" that humanity must band together to vanquish would be "externalizing the struggle" between good and evil: humans as flawed but ultimately good, Others as the evil forces of darkness. It seems to me that most readers assume ASOIAF will end with a Great Battle between the forces of light (humanity, possibly the Children and Giants as well) and the Forces of Darkness (The Others), basically because that's the standard fantasy template. But that hasn't actually been the story GRRM has been telling for five books, so I see no reason for him to do an about-face in the last two (three?) books and go with a good vs evil trope.

That doesn't change the fact that the Others are out to kill humans though, as far as we know pretty much any human they encounter (Craster maybe an exception, but how long would that have remained so?). From the perspective of the wildlings, the watch, and for anybody in the north (or wherever, if on the path of the advancing others) after the Others break through the Wall, they are pretty much evil by virtue of being on a campaign of extermination.

The Others are out to kill humans, but to be fair, so are the humans. The BWWB are killing every Frey they can find. Stark forces were slaughtering Lannister forces. Lannister forces were slaughtering Stark forces. That doesn't mean either side was composed of evil creatures of darkness. And there's really no indication that the Others want to kill every human they can, since there's no indication they're full-on attacked the wildlings en route to the Wall.

[lostcause]

He basically has said that here: http://www.infinityp...ion/intgrrm.htm

Making the Others "the great evil" that humanity must band together to vanquish would be "externalizing the struggle" between good and evil: humans as flawed but ultimately good, Others as the evil forces of darkness. It seems to me that most readers assume ASOIAF will end with a Great Battle between the forces of light (humanity, possibly the Children and Giants as well) and the Forces of Darkness (The Others), basically because that's the standard fantasy template. But that hasn't actually been the story GRRM has been telling for five books, so I see no reason for him to do an about-face in the last two (three?) books and go with a good vs evil trope.

Well he also says he still believes in the now unfashionable heroic deed.

I think for the now 5 books he has made it plain that for the most part, good and evil isn't as clear cut (let's not count the Boltons in this one!), when it comes to the affairs of men.

But the Others are not men, there is a supernatural and magic air about them. Then it becomes species against species - and in that aspect, the line is made in the sand. And whoever is trying to exterminate all of humanity, would pretty much have to be considered evil from our POV.

ETA: They did not full on kill the wildlings as they fled. You could argue they had stratetig reasons for it. Hoping they'd breach the wall for one. Maybe the whole business of making Wights is tiresome, and just like you don't randomly pick a sheep out in the field, but herd them all together in the fold, then start cutting their fur.

All we know is that last time the Others came, they almost lay an eternal darkness over the land, and humanity was in it's knees. It's sounds a bit apocalyptic to me.

[Black Crow]

But the Others are not men, there is a supernatural and magic air about them. Then it becomes species against species - and in that aspect, the line is made in the sand.

All we know is that last time the Others came, they almost lay an eternal darkness over the land, and humanity was in it's knees. It's sounds a bit apocalyptic to me.

No, what we know is that they came with the Long Winter; they didn't cause it. We also know that while they're glamoured, they are or were men - Craster's sons - not a different species.

[lostcause]

No, what we know is that they came with the Long Winter; they didn't cause it. We also know that while they're glamoured, they are or were men - Craster's sons - not a different species.

Huh? Where does it say they were ever men? And I never said they caused it, I've said elsewhere it's pretty much proven they awake when the long winter arrives.

Crastor sacrificed his sons to them yes. How does that make the Others human? And how can they only die by Obsidian?

Edit from the wiki:

In the midst of this darkness a race of apparent demons, called the Others emerged from the uttermost north, wielding razor-thin swords of ice and raising the dead to fight the living. The Children of the Forest and their allies, the First Men, fought valiantly against them, but were driven southwards by their advance.^[2]

The Others were eventually checked when it was discovered that weapons made of dragonglass could kill them.

I do not see much human about these. Only the living dead (wights) were once human.

[Black Crow]

Referring to White Walkers:

“The boy’s brothers,” said the old woman on the left. “Craster’s sons. The white cold’s rising out there, crow. I can feel it in my bones. These poor old bones don’t lie. They’ll be here soon, the sons.”

[David C. Hunter]

Huh? Where does it say they were ever men? And I never said they caused it, I've said elsewhere it's pretty much proven they awake when the long winter arrives.

Crastor sacrificed his sons to them yes. How does that make the Others human? And how can they only die by Obsidian?

Edit from the wiki:

In the midst of this darkness a race of apparent demons, called the Others emerged from the uttermost north, wielding razor-thin swords of ice and raising the dead to fight the living. The Children of the Forest and their allies, the First Men, fought valiantly against them, but were driven southwards by their advance.^[2]

The Others were eventually checked when it was discovered that weapons made of dragonglass could kill them.

I do not see much human about these. Only the living dead (wights) were once human.

I know what your saying, but as far as we know the only knowledge we have on the White Walkers comes from the Andals' scribes who didnt write it for thousands of years after the White Walkers came. GRRM keeps hinting every chance he gets that history becomes less facts and more legend as time moves on. As far as Im concerned the White Walkers have not shown their reason for doing what they do. I mean its been at least 8,000 years since they were defeated, nobody really knows what happened except maybe Blood Raven and the remaining COTF. Speaking of which, would it kill one character in this entire story to ask some questions? It ould really help us out.

Bran: How were you defeated? Did the White Walkers destroy most of you? Or was it Man?

COTF: Who are the White Walkers?

LOL, that one answer could save 500 pages.

If this is a song of Ice and Fire and it is a song of balance then the balance is out of wack because the Targaryans(Fire) ruled for 300 years with Dragons. It is now time for the Ice to take over for a time and rule with the White Walkers or w/e. It is to restore the balance. However this is the story of the transition from one to the other which is filled with chaos, disorder and death, but the balance will be restored. Maybe the Starks will rule for 300 years only to be taken over once again by the fire of dragons.

Personally it just doesnt make sense for a Dragon to rule during a period of a 40 year long winter. I doubt Drogon can grow crops with his breath when Dany screams Dracarys.

[Solmyr]

Referring to White Walkers:

“The boy’s brothers,” said the old woman on the left. “Craster’s sons. The white cold’s rising out there, crow. I can feel it in my bones. These poor old bones don’t lie. They’ll be here soon, the sons.”

That doesn't prove anything in and of itself. GRRM has stated many times and proven it even more that even the most knowledgeable of PoVs are dubious narrators at best. We have the ramblings of a scared old woman as proof that the Others are men sacrificed to [let us assume] The Great Other? I do not say that her statement may not have a shred of truth in it, but the more likely scenario is that by sacrificing to the Others/Great Other you bolster their power in the physical realm. A lot like the sacrifices to R'hllor.

Speaking of whom, I deem it prudent that one cannot properly analyze the CotF or the Others without delving into the mysteries of 'the other side' - Fire. If we were to assume that CotF & Others are in the same camp, then the other side is, in my opinion, still the more powerful entity. Lets try a little parallel here:

Fire <-> Ice

Main deities: R'hllor <->Great Other

Minions: Dragons <-> Others

Areas of influence: Valyria (and/or The Shadow) <-> The Land of Always Winter

Other similarities: We hear a lot about how "Dragons are fire made flesh". Aren't the Others 'Ice made flesh'? Dragons bleed fire, the Other Sam stabbed dissolved into a puddle. Dragonglass and Dragonsteel are the two known ways to kill an Other - the more potent of which used to be crafted by the dragonlords of old Valyria.

I'm aware the above is pretty obvious for the average reader, but I wanted to spell it out so that it would be obvious that on these facts alone, the Others come a lot short in the struggle. They start off behind a Wall which is impassable to their kind, they are quite vulnerable to the weapons of the other side and their area of influence is very limited, whereas fire priests and dragons practice their craft all over the world. So where will the balance come from? Well from the other factions of the world. As far as we know (although we know precious little), most of those are either leaning towards siding with the Others or helping them indirectly by opposing R'hllor. Lets list them out:

Old Gods - it is beyond a doubt that they have real power as a deity(s) and it would make sense for them to side with the Others.

Many-Faced God - again, the faceless men have power and it is known they opposed the dragonlords of Valyria.

Drowned God - not proven he has real power, however, Moqorro names him a demon in service of TGO. Furthermore, Euron's intentions towards Dany's dragons are far from supportive; Euron claims to be a godly man, although he seems to be serving a darker power.

Seven - not proven they have real power, but the sheer quantity of their followers may be power enough. Unclear which side they may be on, if any.

The Citadel - clearly opposing all magic, reasons to believe they brought about the demise of the dragons. No dragons indirectly supports the Others.

The main problem Fire has is that it rules too openly and like any ruling power, those unhappy with its 'regime' will try to undermine it. The Others are unbeknownst to the people of the world - even the Night Watch, who is in the closest proximity to their domain didn't take them seriously until very recently. Mostly everyone else still doesn't. It is likely that if, say the Citadel, knew that the choice is dragons or Others taking over the world (or westeros at least), they may think twice before working towards bringing the dragons down.

Damn that turned out to be one long post, better stop while it's still readable :).

[Capon Breath]

Apart from Old Nan nobody south of the Wall appears to know anything about them or have any inkling of a building threat.

The Others take your statement (eg for them to have become a curse used all over Westeros indicates they are much more widely known than just to old Old Nan and are clearly historically synonomous with bad things)