Why does everyone hate Catelyn Stark?

[CatelynFan]

Regardless, you cannot defend such behaviour or justify it.

So let me get this straight. A nasty comment, despite the fact that it's said under extreme stress, despite the fact that it probably wasn't meant, despite the fact that it was said by a person not in her right mind, despite the fact that the insulted party forgets it almost immediately, is totally inexcusable. Got it. Seems like you're being a little tough on Cat to me, but whatever.

[Sir Raven]

She killed Jinglebell the half-wit.

I felt like she only cared about the lives of her family members. Her words to Jon (over Bran's bed) expressed as much, as did her actions during the war.

[George Snow]

she loses robbs most valuable hostage with no gain for robb

she caused neds death, the capture of sansa, arya going rogue, she starts a war that causes a war that kills robb, and bran and rickon in her eyes, since they were reported dead, she then releases jaime which led to the red wedding, since thres no way the blackfish can get back at tywin for the red wedding without jaime to kill, and brynden wouldve done it

To be fair, Tywin had written Jaime off when he planned the Red Wedding. He did not know that Jaime had been set free. So, he would have been fine with the Blackfish executing Jaime after the Red Wedding.

GH

[Nausicaä]

I felt like she only cared about the lives of her family members. Her words to Jon (over Bran's bed) expressed as much, as did her actions during the war.

The actions like saving Brienne's life and taking her into her service, you mean? I must have missed how they were related.

Come on, she didn't actually want Jon to be dead or crippled, just away from Winterfell. She shouldn't have said what she did, but it was in extreme circumstances and she felt guilty about it later.

[Bunyon Knight]

I love Catelyn. What parent hasnt made huge mistakes in the cause of loving their children? She is way less sinister and self serving in her maternal-ness then Cersei.

Yeah I love Catelyn too. What parent hadn't made a huge mistake that resulted in their children being killed. I'm sorry, I'm not making fun of you, but every decision she made was rediculous and proved to be wrong in the end. As far as I see it anyway.

Obviously she isn't evil to the level of cersei. But what kind of human being and an adult at that and a mother says to a 14 yea old kid "it should have been you"?? Your ass should have been the one tossed from a tower and lay here crippled. I don't give a bleep that her emotions are in turmoil and there in the room stands the bane of her existance. Jon came to say goodbye to his little brother and show his love. "Hey Jonny!!! Hope you die of testicular cancer." Catelyn might as well have said that and it would have been less offensive. I hated her guts ever since I read that quote and read through her chapters with nothing but utter contempt. Imagine my joy when I found she was brought back to life. Curse you Dondarion.

There was a poster that said it's hard to take catelyn haters seriously after someone blamed her for the death of Ned and everything else in existance. How about this, you like her, great go on liking her. But who are you to tell other people how they should feel about a certain character? If they wanna blame the doom of valyria on catelyn's monthlies, that's their choice.

OP asked why people hate Catelyn. Many responded and gave their reasons. Others responded on why they love her. Great, thats it, a reason for a reason, there's no need to demean other people's opinions.

[Sir Raven]

The actions like saving Brienne's life and taking her into her service, you mean? I must have missed how they were related.

Actions like trading Jaime for Sansa, and pushing for war when there was a chance of saving Ned and then pushing for peace after that was no longer a possibility.

Also, if I remember correctly, both Catelyn and Brienne were initially blamed for Renly's death. Instead of blaming Brienne, she correctly blamed Stannis, who likely planned to kill Rob as a traitor.

[Bunyon Knight]

This.

And I would add that it was Jon Aryn's death that started the snowball at the point where the House of Stark became involved, which had very little to do with Cat. Prior to that, it would seem the Starks were content to remain apart, doing whatever they do in the North awaiting winter. It wasn't until King's Landing invaded, so to speak, Winterfell that the shit started to roll.

As for the ever quoted "It should have been you" statement...Jon, really? That was moment you decided to nut up?

IMHO, this moment, short as it is, sums up the festering entitlement issues inherent in Jon (wanting WF, yadda), and is an example of his selfishness, inasmuch as it shows Catelyn's suppossed hatred of him. And the additional information regarding her body wracked with sobbing, and his never having seen her cry, suggests both her frailty and his bullying her in the face of it, as he chooses not to leave, but remains true to his original intent of seeing Bran, despite to obvious inappropriate nature of the act. It also suggests that he stayed with Bran despite her, and not entirely because of his deep love for the boy.

For all the wondering about why so many hate Cat, I wonder why so many love Jon? YMMV

And, Michelle Fairley is AWESOME!! Even when I read, it is MF's face that comes for her POV chapters. Ah, the power of television. I like her now....it will be shame later, though.

Jon is a 14 year old boy who is going away forever and came to say goodbye to a brother he loves and might never see again, and you interpret this as Jon's defiance of Catelyn? You interpret this as something Jon did just to rub Catelyn's nose in it?

I'm of the opinion that a person should never wish someone was crippled, especially if that someone is just kid, a kid that all your children love(except for Sansa and don't get me started on that idiot) a kid that's making your wish come true and leavig Winterfell behind and killing any chance of marriage and having kids. I don't care what kind of grief you are going through, saying something like that to someone who is considered family by all your kids, well you're a piece of crap for a human being. I can't stand Catelyn.

No Catelyn, it should have been you

[Bunyon Knight]

Argh sorry for double posting

[Bunyon Knight]

Sorry for the triple post and my stoopid phone

[guad]

Posting it three times won't make the argument more convincing tbh :lol:

I like Cat and she's one of the best written characters too. One only has to see the reactions she provoques in people

[Alexia]

Ridiculous allegations to the contrary, Sansa loves Jon too.

[Bunyon Knight]

Posting it three times won't make the argument more convincing tbh :lol:

I like Cat and she's one of the best written characters too. One only has to see the reactions she provoques in people

Yes cause my intent was absolutely to triple post from the get go. Wise guy

[CatelynFan]

I'm of the opinion that a person should never wish someone was crippled, especially if that someone is just kid, a kid that all your children love(except for Sansa and don't get me started on that idiot) a kid that's making your wish come true and leavig Winterfell behind and killing any chance of marriage and having kids. I don't care what kind of grief you are going through, saying something like that to someone who is considered family by all your kids, well you're a piece of crap for a human being.

Yeah, Catelyn's a bitch-monster from hell, because of one insulting comment she made under extreme stress! Tyrion murdering Shae and his father? Jaime tossing a seven-year-old child out a window and fucking his sister? Gregor Clegane raping women and smashing babies' heads against walls? Littlefinger throwing an entire realm into war and chaos for his own selfish ends? Mere child's play compared to that she-devil Cat's unspeakable crime! :rolleyes:

Seriously: ASOIAF is packed full of criminals, sadists, and selfish monsters, and yet people spew venom against CATELYN? For just one single comment she didn't mean, that did no one any harm? It boggles the mind.

If people don't like Catelyn because she was mean to their favorite character, well and good. But to say things like "she's no better than Cersei" and "she was to blame for the War of the Five Kings" and "she's a horrible mother"? Those are statements that directly contradict the text.

[Birdsong65]

Jon is a 14 year old boy who is going away forever and came to say goodbye to a brother he loves and might never see again, and you interpret this as Jon's defiance of Catelyn? You interpret this as something Jon did just to rub Catelyn's nose in it?

No. I suggested that it was not entirely an act of love absolutely. He wanted to say goodbye, regardless of how inappropriate it may have been, or how it made her feel. And why would he never see him again? Why do we assume forever? Seems to me the only person afraid that Bran would die is Catelyn, everyone else had accepted that the most dangerous time period had passed in terms of him dying, which would support some measure of contact between them in the future, barring any unforseen circumstances that might fuck everything up. Oops.

As for rubbing her nose in it, too late. His existence rubs her nose in it, her dislike of him rubs his nose in it. There's a fair amount of nose rubbing happening, let's just leave it at that.

14 year old boy....yeah, in the 21st century, but in Westeros, he's near "a man grown," so we can probably dispense with the idea that he's fresh out of nappies, and as vulnerable as a new-born.

Jon/Cat knew how each felt, for whatever reasons, and lived life accordingly. Was it ideal? No, but whomever in this series achieves ideal?

[Nausicaä]

Actions like trading Jaime for Sansa, and pushing for war when there was a chance of saving Ned and then pushing for peace after that was no longer a possibility.

As far as I can see these actions show that she cares for her family members, not that she doesn't care about anyone else.

Also, if I remember correctly, both Catelyn and Brienne were initially blamed for Renly's death. Instead of blaming Brienne, she correctly blamed Stannis, who likely planned to kill Rob as a traitor.

No, they weren't. Both Ser Emmon and Ser Robar assumed that it was Brienne right away and Emmon attacked her and while they were fighting Catelyn started to beg Robar to help her and told him over and over that Brienne was innocent. She only comments on her own situation (that it will not be forgotten that they both were with the king when he died) after they safely got to her escort and the horses. She helped Brienne out of her goodness, not to save herself. And afterwards, she talked Brienne out of her suicide mission of going back to Storm's End alone to kill Stannis and took her in her service when Brienne asked. The point is, Catelyn doesn't only care for her family members.

[Black Dow]

Yeah, Catelyn's a bitch-monster from hell, because of one insulting comment she made under extreme stress! Tyrion murdering Shae and his father? Jaime tossing a seven-year-old child out a window and fucking his sister? Gregor Clegane raping women and smashing babies' heads against walls? Littlefinger throwing an entire realm into war and chaos for his own selfish ends? Mere child's play compared to that she-devil Cat's unspeakable crime! :rolleyes:

Seriously: ASOIAF is packed full of criminals, sadists, and selfish monsters, and yet people spew venom against CATELYN? For just one single comment she didn't mean, that did no one any harm? It boggles the mind.

If people don't like Catelyn because she was mean to their favorite character, well and good. But to say things like "she's no better than Cersei" and "she was to blame for the War of the Five Kings" and "she's a horrible mother"? Those are statements that directly contradict the text.

She slashed the throat of an innocent half-wit from one side of his throat to the other. As reprehensible as her comment to Snow was, you justify it; now, are you able to justify her murder of Jinglebell?

[Slychd]

She slashed the throat of an innocent half-wit from one side of his throat to the other. As reprehensible as her comment to Snow was, you justify it; now, are you able to justify her murder of Jinglebell?

Jinglebell had it coming! She didn't want to kill Jinglebell, but she couldn't get to Walder Frey. She thought they might trade a child for a child. Her last act was an act of revenge from a woman who for a very long time was unable to "do" anything. Did killing Jinglebell accomplish anything? No, just one less Frey for Stoneheart to track down later, it's called being efficient.

[Bunyon Knight]

Jinglebell had it coming! She didn't want to kill Jinglebell, but she couldn't get to Walder Frey. She thought they might trade a child for a child. Her last act was an act of revenge from a woman who for a very long time was unable to "do" anything. Did killing Jinglebell accomplish anything? No, just one less Frey for Stoneheart to track down later, it's called being efficient.

Yes!!! She wanted revenge on the Freys and couldn't get to Walder, so instead she decided to murder the only Frey that doesn't have the capacity for betrayal, harm and murder towards anyone in this world. She killed a harmless simpleton. Way to go Catelyn.

Look, if people want to forgive Cat for the things she has done, that's their business and they are welcome to it. But none of those people have any right to tell Catelyn haters that they dont have a right or a reason to despise the bitch.

She gave more than ample reasons to be despised, and she did it on many occasions. You're free to forgive her. We're free to hate the shit out of her and none of you will ever convince us otherwise, just as we can't break through your rose colored glasses.

[CatelynFan]

She slashed the throat of an innocent half-wit from one side of his throat to the other. As reprehensible as her comment to Snow was, you justify it; now, are you able to justify her murder of Jinglebell?

No, but that still doesn't make her as black a character as people insist on painting her, particularly compared to other characters in the series.

I think people are missing my point. I'm not saying that Catelyn should be excused for all her actions. I'm saying that Catelyn is NOT abusive, NOT comparable to characters like Cersei and Littlefinger, and NOT as reprehensible as some people seem to think. If people want to discuss her flaws calmly and reasonably, I'd be willing to participate. However, if people call her a bitch, state that she's responsible for the War of the Five Kings, say that she's an abusive mother or a selfish cow or constantly makes stupid decisions or only cares about rank and fortune or any of the other myriad statements I've read on this forum, I'm going to argue, because those statements are either outright lies or gross generalizations.

[Black Dow]

Jinglebell had it coming! She didn't want to kill Jinglebell, but she couldn't get to Walder Frey. She thought they might trade a child for a child. Her last act was an act of revenge from a woman who for a very long time was unable to "do" anything. Did killing Jinglebell accomplish anything? No, just one less Frey for Stoneheart to track down later, it's called being efficient.

Why in the world would even Stoneheart have any interest in tracking down a helpless lackwit who had nothing to do with the Red Wedding in any shape, form, or fashion?