Why does everyone hate Catelyn Stark?

[Bunyon Knight]

and NOT as reprehensible as some people seem to think.

Please do not state that as fact. In your opinion she is not as reprehensible as people seem to think. There are many that find her very reprehensible. Obviosly she didn't cause the war and she is not an all out scumbag the likes of Cersei and most Lannisters.

Please understand that there are many and more people who will never forgive a statement of ridiculous cruelty towards a kid who came to profess his love for your son and say goodbye to him because at best he might see Bran once every few years if Bran lives. And she said those words as Jon was about to leave the room. She couldn't just shut the hell up? He was exiting.

And the worst part is, it's not even Jon's fault that he is at Winterfell. Blame that oh so honorable husband of yours, don't spill your venom on a kid who is considered family by your children. There is no excuse for saying those words as far ad I'm concerned

[Birdsong65]

Who was it that said, "One should not pull one's sword unless they intend to use it?"

As it relates to Jinglebells, she pulled it, she said she would use it, she tried to negotiate for Robb's life in exchange, and they killed him.

"Duty, Honor, Family" demanded she follow through. And she did.

Had she not been hampered by her own wounds, likely she would have made for Old Man Frey, as was her initial intent related in her POV RW chapter.

And then, no doubt, readers would sing her praises had she succeeded in offing him.

Catelyn Tully Stark.

Such a tinderbox.

[Slychd]

Why in the world would even Stoneheart have any interest in tracking down a helpless lackwit who had nothing to do with the Red Wedding in any shape, form, or fashion?

Well, Stoneheart wouldn't because she handled that business ahead of time.

[Auska]

The actions like saving Brienne's life and taking her into her service, you mean?

…Taking Brienne into her service to retrieve her family members, you mean? :)

[Nausicaä]

…Taking Brienne into her service to retrieve her family members, you mean? :)

I beg your pardon? She didn't even know that Bran and Rickon were considered dead when she accepted Brienne into her service. That event had nothing to do with anyone but her and Brienne.

[Ser Alaster]

people blame her for the red wedding?no one ive talked to about seems to think so

and as for hating cat, she kinda destroyed her family

ned"i shouldnt got to KL"

cat"you must"

ned"okay"

ned dies

cat"im going to arrest the dwarf in plain sight using tully bannermen"

tyrion"wtf?you know my father is going to get pissed"

cat"whatever"

tyrion escapes anyway, tywin attacks riverlands

cat"im going to free you so you can free my daughters, despite the fact that neither you nor your brother would do say without tywins leave"

jaime"okay, its not like im a valuable hostage or anything"

she loses robbs most valuable hostage with no gain for robb

she caused neds death, the capture of sansa, arya going rogue, she starts a war that causes a war that kills robb, and bran and rickon in her eyes, since they were reported dead, she then releases jaime which led to the red wedding, since thres no way the blackfish can get back at tywin for the red wedding without jaime to kill, and brynden wouldve done it

so shes responsible for every casualty, highborn and low, in the riverlands and the north, i wonder why people would hate her for that

Wow, I never stopped at looked at it this way, thanks. I can see why people hate her so much

[David Selig]

Jon is a 14 year old boy who is going away forever and came to say goodbye to a brother he loves and might never see again, and you interpret this as Jon's defiance of Catelyn? You interpret this as something Jon did just to rub Catelyn's nose in it?

I'm of the opinion that a person should never wish someone was crippled, especially if that someone is just kid, a kid that all your children love(except for Sansa and don't get me started on that idiot) a kid that's making your wish come true and leavig Winterfell behind and killing any chance of marriage and having kids. I don't care what kind of grief you are going through, saying something like that to someone who is considered family by all your kids, well you're a piece of crap for a human being. I can't stand Catelyn.

No Catelyn, it should have been you

So, by your own logic, are you a piece of crap human being considering your last line? Yeah, I know she's a fictional character, but still..:rolleyes:

I honestly don't get this kind of thinking. Yes, Catelyn said something terrible, but it was one line of dialogue and she was under extreme duress. To judge a person so finally from one line she said is just wrong to me.

But to each his own, I guess.

Just out of curiosity, which characters in ASOIF do you happen to like? Can't be many if you judge all of them by such high standards...

[Auska]

I beg your pardon? She didn't even know that Bran and Rickon were considered dead when she accepted Brienne into her service. That event had nothing to do with anyone but her and Brienne.

I meant the girls, but do note the smiley. I wasn't really serious, although Cat did send Brienne with Jaime right after she found out about Bran and Rickon, so that was about a week into her service.

[Auska]

I honestly don't get this kind of thinking. Yes, Catelyn said something terrible, but it was one line of dialogue and she was under extreme duress. To judge a person so finally from one line she said is just wrong to me.

A decent person will apologize after an outburst!

The first argument is an obvious variant of the “you're intolerant if you don't tolerate intolerance” argument.

[Black Dow]

Who was it that said, "One should not pull one's sword unless they intend to use it?"

As it relates to Jinglebells, she pulled it, she said she would use it, she tried to negotiate for Robb's life in exchange, and they killed him.

"Duty, Honor, Family" demanded she follow through. And she did.

Had she not been hampered by her own wounds, likely she would have made for Old Man Frey, as was her initial intent related in her POV RW chapter.

And then, no doubt, readers would sing her praises had she succeeded in offing him.

Catelyn Tully Stark.

Such a tinderbox.

To answer your question, Jaime Lannister said it. This is nice- let's judge the morality of a character by using the morality of another fictional character as a measuring stick, and a rather questionable character, at that.

Your justification for Catelyn's savage act is different than what I expected. I had at least thought you would plead temporary insanity on her behalf. Instead, you argue that the murder of an innocent person, with the mental age of a toddler, is justified because it was the honorable to do? Because it was her duty? I must say that message boards can at times be amusing; I never cease to get astonished at some of what I read on them.

[DornishPartisan]

Yes, Catelyn is imperfect, and yes, her decisions often lead to undesirable outcomes. I'd like to suggest a larger context. For me, the worst decision she makes is early on, when she trusts Littlefinger. But why shouldn't she? The Starks, after all, are working with two serious disadvantages: 1) most of them love their honor a bit too much (Ned, especially, is simply too good to do much good), and 2) since they are isolated in the North, they aren't likely to have had occasions to realize how devious and dirty politics can get in King's Landing. They just don't have the necessary skills at intrigue; and even if they could have acquired those skills quickly, would they have been willing to trade honor for victory? The crippling nobility of the Starks contrasts vividly with all those deliciously devious Tyrells and Martells—the difference makes me more interested in both groups.

I also think Michelle Fairley is a wonderful Catelyn. Especially that beautiful moment when Jaime confesses that he pushed Bran. She plays Cat's confusion magnificently, only able to ask, almost innocently, "why?" There's my point of view in a nutshell.

[Alexia]

Sorry, but I'm the last person to condemn Catelyn for killing Jinglebells. They just murdered her son in front of her eyes, along with her friends, in violation of all the laws and customs of their society. Was it nice to kill Jinglebells, not really. But I find it astonishing the knots people will tie themselves into so that they can condemn Catelyn.

You kill my children in front of my eyes and even I can't say what I would be capable of. No, I have absolutely no condemnation for Catelyn, nothing but pity, regardless of whether she was temporarily insane or in full possession of her faculties. They killed the last child that remained to her in front of her eyes!

[Chirios]

To answer your question, Jaime Lannister said it. This is nice- let's judge the morality of a character by using the morality of another fictional character as a measuring stick, and a rather questionable character, at that.Your justification for Catelyn's savage act is different than what I expected. I had at least thought you would plead temporary insanity on her behalf. Instead, you argue that the murder of an innocent person, with the mental age of a toddler, is justified because it was the honorable to do? Because it was her duty? I must say that message boards can at times be amusing; I never cease to get astonished at some of what I read on them.

Is it really that surprising? People tend not to like having their beliefs challenged, and will go to extraordinary lengths to justify them. Kind of like how people try and pretend like Jaime is actually a saint, and it's the evil Ned Starks fault for letting his son climb trees.

[Black Dow]

I'd bet that under similar circumstances, Ned wouldn't have done it. Davos wouldn't have. Brienne wouldn't have. I can think of other characters in this series who I have a hard time envisioning doing what Catelyn did. Then again, there are some characters who I can easily envision doing it- like Cersei, for example.

By the way, I don't know if the act should be minimized as "was it nice, not really". It is a brutal, disgusting act against what essentially was an innocent child. Of course, there are mitigating circumstances going on here; nothing can mitigate the act itself, but certainly the state of her mind at the time is mitigating. However, there are ample reasons to despise Catelyn aside from this barberous act, most of which have been eloquently described by other posters on this very thread.

[Alexia]

Jinglebell was not a child, folks. A halfwit but not a child.

[Black Dow]

I said "essentially" a child. He had the mental ability of a child. A crime against a person with the mentality of a child is as bad as a crime against a child.

[Slychd]

I can't believe this thread has devolved into "killing Jinglebell was wrong." Fucking Jinglebell? That's really scraping the bottom of the barrel for reasons to hate Catelyn.

Of all the things people hate Catelyn for (most of which I disagree with) I can't believe someone can have the effrontery to suggest she was wrong for killing Jinglebell.

[Black Dow]

Yes, perhaps we have a different perspective on the slaughter of innocent people.

[twist of cake]

I kind of felt bad for Jingle Bell too, though I am not sure why people would bring it up everyone seems to support killing all the Freys regardless which ones had anything to do with the Red Wedding.

[Black Dow]

I would hope that most people would not suggest that Freys, who had nothing to do with the Red Wedding, should be killed.